Departing VFR after telephoning for an IFR clearance

Datadriver

Datadriver

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Datadriver
What is ATC's position on obtaining an IFR clearance via telephone, telling them you are not ready to go yet, but then departing VFR without phoning them back
a second time to get a release time and instead just radioing once airborne?

I'm wondering if this is taboo, but if not would you want to be squawking 1200 before contacting them via radio once airborne instead of the IFR assigned code...

I've never actually done this, and instead have always just phoned a second time telling them I'm ready to go.
 
If they told you hold for release the first time, I sure wouldn’t depart on your IFR code. Technically you’d have to get another clearance when airborne. I’ve heard of controllers making up phraseology for an airborne aircraft that’s already gotten their clearance on the ground. Something like “continue as previously cleared.” Might as well just re-clear them.
 
When operating from a non-towered airport without the ability to contact ATC via radio, the usual drill is to get a clearance and a void time. If not departing by the void time you need to call back and arrange for another clearance. You can depart VFR and try to do an air pickup, but that requires remaining VFR, and reaching sufficient altitude to contact ATC. You are not guaranteed an IFR clearance beyond your void time in this situation. It's best to call for a proper clearance and void time, so the airspace is cleared for you, and you are not trying to remain VFR in marginal conditions.

If the weather is good VFR, and the airspace is not too busy, you can usually pick up your clearance in the air with no issues.
 
Get your clearance. Taxi to the runway, call back and say #1 on runway X. If you can call for the clearance, what's the big deal to make a second call?
 
Datadriver said:
What is ATC's position on obtaining an IFR clearance via telephone, telling them you are not ready to go yet, but then departing VFR without phoning them back
a second time to get a release time and instead just radioing once airborne?

I'm wondering if this is taboo, but if not would you want to be squawking 1200 before contacting them via radio once airborne instead of the IFR assigned code...

I've never actually done this, and instead have always just phoned a second time telling them I'm ready to go.
Click to expand...
Seems moot. If you didn't have a release/void time, they didn't block out the space for ya, hence you didn't hold anybody up. I would think ATC would be indifferent to the scenario as described, unless I missed the release time part.
 
You didn’t say whether you received a transponder code or hold for release instruction.

But I’d start with AIM 5-2-7 for the answer.

There's also a brief discussion of a case in which a pilot was violated for taking off VFR after being instructed to hold for release in my AIM Is Not Regulatory article.
 
I do my runup and am ready to go when i call for clearance - I tell them I’m ready to go and alway get a cleared for departure with a time limit in case I delay the takeoff.
 
I operate at McCall ID (KMYL) often. If it's IMC, we call on the phone and get a clearance/release and if it's VFR we just depart and pick up a clearance with SL Center. Either way works well.
 
I read the OP saying he wanted to know if he called in a clearance, with no intended departure time, then after a random delay, take off, and activate in the air, VFR conditions.

This works just fine in areas where you are not into controlled airspace as soon as you are airborne.

I used that when in Missouri, 12 miles from the small airport. Drive there, load the luggage, preflight the plane, and depart. When high enough to reach ATC, call and activate the flight plan.

Often, there would be hours or more before activating. I had no cell phone, and filed by wire line telephone, with FSS, after my weather briefing. I think that flight plan remains in the system until midnight, but not sure. Mine were there several hours after filing, as my briefing was generally soon after 6 AM. Breakfast at 7, pack snacks for the trip, load the car, lengthy good byes, and drive to the airport. In the air by 9 was a good departure.

Never any problem.
 
Doc Holliday said:
I operate at McCall ID (KMYL) often. If it's IMC, we call on the phone and get a clearance/release and if it's VFR we just depart and pick up a clearance with SL Center. Either way works well.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

Doing a hybrid of the two without getting ATC on board first will at best cause confusion, or at worst, an enforcement action. An IFR clearance at a non-towered airport will include either a void time or a "hold for release". Taking off with no further communications with ATC is not an expected procedure.

At my home airport, we're right under the armpit of two bravo airports, so departing IFR can be quite a challenge as ATC needs to build a gap in arrivals to get us out. Standard practice if the weather is minimally VFR is to get our clearance on the ground with an explicit VFR departure. We're inside the DC FRZ so departing without calling first is neither legal nor efficient, as the controller working DCA final doesn't have time to read a full route clearance.
 
Datadriver said:
What is ATC's position on obtaining an IFR clearance via telephone, telling them you are not ready to go yet, but then departing VFR without phoning them back
a second time to get a release time and instead just radioing once airborne?
Click to expand...
I would not do this. I'd either make a second call when #1 at the runway or not call at all and pick up clearance in the air. A lot would depend on the airspace I was entering. If approach is going to be busy, like NYC area, I'd call for clearance then call for release. In the middle of nowhere if conditions are VFR and I'm not expecting a complicated re-route, I might just take off and pick up clearance in the air.
 
geezer said:
I read the OP saying he wanted to know if he called in a clearance, with no intended departure time, then after a random delay, take off, and activate in the air, VFR conditions.

This works just fine in areas where you are not into controlled airspace as soon as you are airborne.

I used that when in Missouri, 12 miles from the small airport. Drive there, load the luggage, preflight the plane, and depart. When high enough to reach ATC, call and activate the flight plan.

Often, there would be hours or more before activating. I had no cell phone, and filed by wire line telephone, with FSS, after my weather briefing. I think that flight plan remains in the system until midnight, but not sure. Mine were there several hours after filing, as my briefing was generally soon after 6 AM. Breakfast at 7, pack snacks for the trip, load the car, lengthy good byes, and drive to the airport. In the air by 9 was a good departure.

Never any problem.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's what he meant. He said "obtain a IFR clearance" not "file an IFR flight plan" which I assume is what you're referring to by "called in a clearance."

Lots of flight plans get filed that never get activated.
 
Datadriver said:
What is ATC's position on obtaining an IFR clearance via telephone, telling them you are not ready to go yet, but then departing VFR without phoning them back
a second time to get a release time and instead just radioing once airborne?

I'm wondering if this is taboo, but if not would you want to be squawking 1200 before contacting them via radio once airborne instead of the IFR assigned code...

I've never actually done this, and instead have always just phoned a second time telling them I'm ready to go.
Click to expand...
Do you call in a pizza delivery order and tell them you call them back to advise on when you want it delivered?
 
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Clip4 said:
Do you call in a pizza delivery order and tell them you call them back to advise on when you want it delivered? Do you think they make the pizza?
Click to expand...
No, I don't call them and then call them back. But I do order online and tell them when I will pick it up, which may be an hour or two later.

But in theory, (depending on what he meant), this is different than your or my pizza scenario. It's not used that often, but pilots can sit in the FBO and call for their IFR clearance, telling ATC they will call back for their release. Especially with something complex, gives them a chance to review at their leisure. It's really just another form of PDC without the text/email/ACARS.
 
Datadriver said:
What is ATC's position on obtaining an IFR clearance via telephone, telling them you are not ready to go yet, but then departing VFR without phoning them back
a second time to get a release time and instead just radioing once airborne?

I'm wondering if this is taboo, but if not would you want to be squawking 1200 before contacting them via radio once airborne instead of the IFR assigned code...

I've never actually done this, and instead have always just phoned a second time telling them I'm ready to go.
Click to expand...
Yes, you should squawk 1200 if you do this.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's the problem. We really don't know what he meant.
Click to expand...
My purpose in asking was an attempt to minimize the time spent on the phone in the airplane short of the runway instead of being on the CTAF. The obvious answer in VFR conditions is to just depart 1200 and pick it up in the air. Sadly, I've gotten a few oddball routes and nav assignments doing this that have made me scramble to find stuff on the chart. I was interested in getting the clearance on the ground to eliminate this.

My home field is untowered outside of a class Charlie. 99% of the traffic is student helicopter pilots. Sometimes they use the radio, sometimes they don't. Some of them are ADS-B equipped, some aren't. Sometimes they fly a normal pattern, sometimes they autorotate down onto the middle of the runway. It's not unusual for them to land in the grass adjacent to the runway, or even plop down onto the runway once you start rolling (yikes).

I'm trying to balance situational awareness by wanting to be on the CTAF to help keep track of these guys vs being on the phone vs wanting to have all the radios configured before I go.

FWIW, ATC has always been ok with me saying - after I read back the clearance - "I'm not ready to go yet, I will call you back when ready."
 
There is no reason you cannot get the clearance on the ground, depart VFR, and get your release airborne.
That said, I would depart with a 1200 code, not the discreet code. That may give them a coronary.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No, I don't call them and then call them back. But I do order online and tell them when I will pick it up, which may be an hour or two later.

But in theory, (depending on what he meant), this is different than your or my pizza scenario. It's not used that often, but pilots can sit in the FBO and call for their IFR clearance, telling ATC they will call back for their release. Especially with something complex, gives them a chance to review at their leisure. It's really just another form of PDC without the text/email/ACARS.
Click to expand...
And if the TRACON turns the airport around, the routing the pilot received might be amended of his review in the FBO takes too much time.
 
Clip4 said:
And if the TRACON turns the airport around, the routing the pilot received might be amended of his review in the FBO takes too much time.
Click to expand...
Of course. That’s true of PDC too. I’m not sure the small percent of the time that might happen is a reason to avoid advance clearances.
 
Datadriver said:
My purpose in asking was an attempt to minimize the time spent on the phone in the airplane short of the runway instead of being on the CTAF. The obvious answer in VFR conditions is to just depart 1200 and pick it up in the air. Sadly, I've gotten a few oddball routes and nav assignments doing this that have made me scramble to find stuff on the chart. I was interested in getting the clearance on the ground to eliminate this.
Click to expand...
I understood the purpose. It was the part about departing VFR after picking up your full IFR clearance I wasn’t sure about.

But as my other responses suggest, I don’t see any problem with picking up your clearance early and calling back later for the release. It’s done. The key is like any IFR flight - you and ATC need to be on the same page. IOW, if you plan to depart VFR and get your release in the air as opposed to on the ground, say so.

Other than the possibility of a route amendment which can occur any time, the only real problems I see are the same potential problems that can happen with all in-air pickups, with or without having the clearance in advance.
 
Brad Z said:
Doing a hybrid of the two without getting ATC on board first will at best cause confusion, or at worst, an enforcement action. An IFR clearance at a non-towered airport will include either a void time or a "hold for release". Taking off with no further communications with ATC is not an expected procedure.
Click to expand...
I've issued many clearances at non-towered fields without either. Untowered airport with an RTR (Remote Transmitter/Receiver) on the field, departing aircraft calls at the end of the runway ready to go. Issue the clearance, readback correct, released for departure.
 
Brad Z said:
I don't think that's what he meant. He said "obtain a IFR clearance" not "file an IFR flight plan" which I assume is what you're referring to by "called in a clearance."

Lots of flight plans get filed that never get activated.
Click to expand...
Is it possible to obtain a clearance on the ground without having a void by time? Would ATC ever give you a clearance to say "yeah, just take off and we'll figure it out in the air"?

If you're flying through crowded airspace, it seems like an opportunity spend an extended time in a hold waiting for them to figure out where to slot you in.
 
bflynn said:
Is it possible to obtain a clearance on the ground without having a void by time? Would ATC ever give you a clearance to say "yeah, just take off and we'll figure it out in the air"?

If you're flying through crowded airspace, it seems like an opportunity spend an extended time in a hold waiting for them to figure out where to slot you in.
Click to expand...
Yes. But from an uncontrolled, aka non towered airport, which the OP was at, you must get something other than just the clearance.

4−3−4. DEPARTURE RELEASE, HOLD FOR RELEASE, RELEASE TIMES, DEPARTURE
RESTRICTIONS, AND CLEARANCE VOID TIMES
Assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, or release times to separate departures from other traffic or
to restrict or regulate the departure flow. Departures from an airport without an operating control tower must be
issued either a departure release, a hold for release, or a release time.
a. Departure Release. When conditions allow, release the aircraft as soon as possible.
PHRASEOLOGY−
To another controller,
(aircraft identification) RELEASED.
To a flight service specialist, or Flight Data Communication Specialist (FDCS).
ADVISE (aircraft identification) RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE.
To a pilot at an airport without an operating control tower,
(aircraft identification) RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE.
b. Hold For Release (HFR).
1. “Hold for release” instructions must be used to inform a pilot or a controller that a departure clearance
is not valid until additional instructions are received.
REFERENCE−
P/CG Term − Hold for Release.
2. When issuing hold for release instructions, include departure delay information.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(aircraft identification) HOLD FOR RELEASE, EXPECT (time in hours and/or minutes) DEPARTURE DELAY.
c. Release Times.
1. Release times must be issued to pilots when necessary to specify the earliest time an aircraft may depart.
NOTE−
A release time is a departure restriction issued to a pilot (either directly or through authorized relay) to separate a departing
aircraft from other traffic.
2. The facility issuing a release time to a pilot must issue a time check. A release time using a specified
number of minutes does not require a time check.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(aircraft identification) RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE AT (time in hours and/or minutes),
and if required,
IF NOT OFF BY (time), ADVISE (facility) NOT LATER THAN (time) OF INTENTIONS.
TIME (time in hours, minutes, and nearest quarter minute).
(aircraft identification) RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE IN (number of minutes) MINUTES
and if required,
IF NOT OFF IN (number of minutes) MINUTES, ADVISE (facility) OF INTENTIONS WITHIN (number of minutes)
MINUTES.
 
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luvflyin said:
Yes. But from an uncontrolled, aka non towered airport, which the OP was at, you must get something other than just the clearance.

4−3−4. DEPARTURE RELEASE, HOLD FOR RELEASE, RELEASE TIMES, DEPARTURE
RESTRICTIONS, AND CLEARANCE VOID TIMES
Assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, or release times to separate departures from other traffic or
to restrict or regulate the departure flow. Departures from an airport without an operating control tower must be
issued either a departure release, a hold for release, or a release time.
Click to expand...
See message #22.
 
Kritchlow said:
There is no reason you cannot get the clearance on the ground, depart VFR, and get your release airborne.
That said, I would depart with a 1200 code, not the discreet code. That may give them a coronary.
Click to expand...
Coronary may be a little extreme but yeah, you get the point. If the Radar coverage is low enough that they see the code before you have called them to tell them what you did, and there is other IFR traffic nearby, it's going to create an adventure. That other traffic may get unneceserilly jerked around
 
roncachamp said:
Yes.
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I wish ATC would not release without void times at uncontrolled airports. I once had a trainer, that had been released, sit there for another 15 minutes before departing. We could not be released because they had been.
 
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