Denver Presidential TFR Bust

gcd89 said:
Don't TFR's show up on ATIS?
Click to expand...

Which ones are you going to tune in on a 1200 mile, all day, multiple fuel stop, cross-country where you don't even know the local team names, let alone where they play?
 
denverpilot said:
Which ones are you going to tune in on a 1200 mile, all day, multiple fuel stop, cross-country where you don't even know the local team names, let alone where they play?
Click to expand...

I never fly when TFR's are in effect so I have no idea if they're on ATIS' or not but...

I don't see how distance or multiple stops matter. You check ATIS at each fuel stop anyway, so if TFR's were in the ATIS (they have NOTAMs anyway), people would know.
 
gcd89 said:
I never fly when TFR's are in effect so I have no idea if they're on ATIS' or not but...

I don't see how distance or multiple stops matter. You check ATIS at each fuel stop anyway, so if TFR's were in the ATIS (they have NOTAMs anyway), people would know.
Click to expand...

It's not the end-points that are the problem. It's the airports and stadiums in-between.

That example I mentioned earlier. I don't think KBJC puts anything on their ATIS about Folsom Field in Boulder, CO -- for example. A flight from say, Longmont to KBJC is going to take you right over the top of it. (Or could, anyway.) Some guy did that, last weekend. Low enough anyone with binoculars could have read the N-number, easily.

Now do a 500nm trip down the Eastern Seaboard or anywhere out East. How many stadiums? Where are they? Is anyone playing that day? Are they all charted even?

Another example here would be the MLS soccer stadium. It's not charted. I would never even have a clue when soccer season is, let alone when the Rapids are playing at home. Just don't care. I think it's inside the surface ring of the DEN Bravo, but I've never looked it up for sure. Don't care. If it isn't on the chart, I'm not going to spend any time on it.

Or an outdoor concert venue. We have one a 1/4 mile north of my house just outside of the KAPA Delta airspace. It's not charted. I don't know (other than hearing bits and pieces of the music playing through my open windows in the summertime) when there are events there. It probably qualifies as worthy of a TFR, if it's not getting them already. Never heard KAPA say there was one.

Here's the reality. There's more folks at the giant shopping mall that's directly underneath the downwind entry that KAPA asks for every single day... "Remain West of I-25, report midfield downwind for Runway 35L/R."

Stadium TFRs are a farcical fairy tale fix for a problem the people at the mall face every day and don't even notice it... "Dangerous" little airplanes overhead with students and instructors doing pattern work.

The whole thing is retarded Bravo Sierra. Here comes the boogeyman in a Cessna to kill you all, scare tactics.
 
denverpilot said:
Here's the reality. There's more folks at the giant shopping mall that's directly underneath the downwind entry that KAPA asks for every single day... "Remain West of I-25, report midfield downwind for Runway 35L/R."

Stadium TFRs are a farcical fairy tale fix for a problem the people at the mall face every day and don't even notice it... "Dangerous" little airplanes overhead with students and instructors doing pattern work.

The whole thing is retarded Bravo Sierra. Here comes the boogeyman in a Cessna to kill you all, scare tactics.
Click to expand...
The Stadium TFR justification/BS (take your pick) is not only the size of the crowd. It's its potential as a target because it represents an American way of life - more symbolic damage - more like Disney than an IKEA store.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The Stadium TFR justification/BS (take your pick) is not only the size of the crowd. It's its potential as a target because it represents an American way of life - more symbolic damage - more like Disney than an IKEA store.
Click to expand...

Do they even pretend that the stadium TFRs are about protecting stadiums from real terrorists? I thought it was more designed to protect against accidents from circling pilots and perhaps to reduce the number of "little planes" making fans nervous.

I mean... a 3 mile radius that only goes up to 3000' isn't even "security theatre"... there's not even a chance you'd notice a bad guy before he hit you or sprayed his chemicals or whatever.
 
Around here it isn't too bad, most of the big venues are in controlled airspace anyway. Must be an utter nightmare on the coast.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The Stadium TFR justification/BS (take your pick) is not only the size of the crowd. It's its potential as a target because it represents an American way of life - more symbolic damage - more like Disney than an IKEA store.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't buy it.

If that were the case, there would be a permanent TFR over the Lucas Ranch, Emeryville, and the entire city of Burbank (Warner, Disney, Universal, NBC). Instead, Burbank is just Class C (with a little Class D), underlying Class E, and Lucas is Class E/G.
 
Last edited:
dukeblue219 said:
Do they even pretend that the stadium TFRs are about protecting stadiums from real terrorists? I thought it was more designed to protect against accidents from circling pilots and perhaps to reduce the number of "little planes" making fans nervous.

I mean... a 3 mile radius that only goes up to 3000' isn't even "security theatre"... there's not even a chance you'd notice a bad guy before he hit you or sprayed his chemicals or whatever.
Click to expand...

No, stadium TFRs are widely accepted as having been put in place to allow for control over unauthorized advertising (read:banner tow). No one will pay to put up a banner that is at least a half mile from the intended eyeballs!
 
dukeblue219 said:
Do they even pretend that the stadium TFRs are about protecting stadiums from real terrorists? I thought it was more designed to protect against accidents from circling pilots and perhaps to reduce the number of "little planes" making fans nervous.
Click to expand...

Neither. It's to keep the engine noise from distracting the commentator.
 
gprellwitz said:
No, stadium TFRs are widely accepted as having been put in place to allow for control over unauthorized advertising (read:banner tow). No one will pay to put up a banner that is at least a half mile from the intended eyeballs!
Click to expand...

If that's the real reason for them, then the NOTAM is a sham, because it classifies them as "national defense airspace." :mad:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978167&postcount=47

Does anyone know if they're really scrambling F-16s for stadium incursions?
 
Palmpilot said:
Does anyone know if they're really scrambling F-16s for stadium incursions?
Click to expand...

I was listening to BJC tower when some guy had gone over Coors Field during a Rockies game. No F-16s but there was a number to call. The tower folks were pretty excited.
 
gcd89 said:
Don't TFR's show up on ATIS?
Click to expand...

At my BFR I was told that at towered airports ATIS is a way of learning about a TFR, but that's no help at untowered airports like the one that's within 3 miles of the college football station where I live.
 
Palmpilot said:
Does anyone know if they're really scrambling F-16s for stadium incursions?
Click to expand...

I know someone who was intercepted by F-15s for loitering above a college football stadium during a game - above the TFR ceiling. They circled around a few times then bugged out.
 
NoHeat said:
At my BFR I was told that at towered airports ATIS is a way of learning about a TFR, but that's no help at untowered airports like the one that's within 3 miles of the college football station where I live.
Click to expand...

I suppose that's true
 
Wow...That guy does not sound like he is in pocession of all his marbles....
be safe out there guys.
 
Clark1961 said:
I was listening to BJC tower when some guy had gone over Coors Field during a Rockies game. No F-16s but there was a number to call. The tower folks were pretty excited.
Click to expand...

Yeah, have heard that at both BJC and APA. "Possible pilot deviation..."
 
MAKG1 said:
Sorry, I don't buy it.

If that were the case, there would be a permanent TFR over the Lucas Ranch, Emeryville, and the entire city of Burbank (Warner, Disney, Universal, NBC). Instead, Burbank is just Class C (with a little Class D), underlying Class E, and Lucas is Class E/G.
Click to expand...

When I left Orlando, where I learned to fly, 25 years ago there was an ongoing TFR over Disneyworld / EPCOT.. Their excuse back then was the lasers "might" blind pilots so that made the "mousehouse" nitetime tour off limits... Funny how much clout big business has.:yesnod::(
 
NoHeat said:
At my BFR I was told that at towered airports ATIS is a way of learning about a TFR, but that's no help at untowered airports like the one that's within 3 miles of the college football station where I live.
Click to expand...
Also no help if the TFR is 100 NM from your point of departure....
 
GCA319 said:
Also no help if the TFR is 100 NM from your point of departure....
Click to expand...

It's also no guarantee much closer to your point of departure.

I don't hear about Stanford games at PAO ATIS, and the stadium is inside Class D. On the other hand, when something nasty goes down in East Palo Alto (all the fricken' time) and the cops are flying a helicopter off the 13 numbers, then that's on ATIS, often with restrictions on what kinds of departures are allowed.
 
I probably would've busted a TFR just a couple days ago were it not for ATC warning me. We had a helicopter go down a few miles NE of TTN. I saw the mushroom cloud go up while I was flying from Princeton back to Trenton. Tower advised us of the TFR, so we cut the lesson short right before it went active. I'd really like to know how the FAA can justify violating someone for busting a TFR when there's no reasonable way you could have known the TFR even existed.
 
MAKG1 said:
...I don't hear about Stanford games at PAO ATIS, and the stadium is inside Class D...
Click to expand...

Since it's inside the class D, as long as you follow the normal requirement to be in contact with the tower, and follow their instructions, it shouldn't be an issue. From the NOTAM:

...THE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY AND IN CONTACT WITH ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY OF FLIGHT PURPOSES...
Click to expand...

I'm assuming they don't hold games there before 7:00 AM or after 9:00 PM, when the tower is closed.
 
MAKG1 said:
That would be incorrect.

The SJSU and Duke games were both at night and were still going on at 9PM.
Click to expand...

OK, thanks for the info. I'll keep that in mind for future night flights.
 
Dear god... with all of the tools at our disposal, the services paid for with our AVGAS taxes, you'd think people would check! I fly at a D under a B. Nearly every weekend you hear some old timer coming in and doesn't understand what "read back hold short instructions with callsign" means... for Christ sakes... Who's doing the BFR's these days!!!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top