Delta & Northwest airlines to merge

Long-expected deal would create world's largest airline and could spark round of deals that could leave 3 mega-carriers.
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Not quite what the architects of deregulation had in mind.
 
And, coming soon to an airport near you, the merger of Continental and United. American is waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces of what NWA/DAL and CAL/UAL don't want or are forced do divest themselves of.
 
Look at the bright side.

Fewer flights, higher prices more overbookings.

Then for the frequent flyers the largest pool of people anywhere praying for the upgrade to the one decent seat left in the airplane.

And don't forget those worthless miles will just keep building up.

:mad:
 
RMCN172RG said:
Look at the bright side.

Fewer flights, higher prices more overbookings.

Then for the frequent flyers the largest pool of people anywhere praying for the upgrade to the one decent seat left in the airplane.

And don't forget those worthless miles will just keep building up.

:mad:
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Look at the real bright side! People will finally get so fed up with the carriers that they'll all become pilots themselves, GA will soar, manufacturers will see the economy of scale again, fuel refiners will make more 100LL, and the price of flying will come down! Won't do anything for the insurance rates, though!
:rofl::goofy::rofl::goofy: :rofl::goofy::rofl::goofy: :rofl::goofy::rofl::goofy: :rofl::goofy::rofl::goofy:
 
As the price of fuel goes up it will cost more and more. With less competition the airlines will be better able to stick it to the population at large. Be better for GA probably.
 
steingar said:
With less competition the airlines will be better able to stick it to the population at large. Be better for GA probably.
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Or MAYBE they can finally charge enough for a ticket that they can FINALLY stop losing money and FINALLY make a PROFIT.
 
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steingar said:
With less competition the airlines will be better able to stick it to the population at large.
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Greg Bockelman said:
Or MAYBE they can finally charge enough for a ticket that they can FINALLY stop loosing money and FINALLY make a PROFIT.
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These are two sides of the same coin, no?

I wonder how high the price of a ticket can go before people cut down on flying.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Isn't that kind of the point of a free market? Charge what the market can bear? Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
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I don't have a problem with it, I was just speculating. With people already affected by the downturn in the economy, how many of them are going to cut down on airline travel? I can also see new airlines coming in to compete in areas where the merged airlines will vacate. Isn't that the way it has normally worked since deregulation?
 
Everskyward said:
I don't have a problem with it, I was just speculating. With people already affected by the downturn in the economy, how many of them are going to cut down on airline travel? I can also see new airlines coming in to compete in areas where the merged airlines will vacate. Isn't that the way it has normally worked since deregulation?
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Yeah, and the newbees have dragged down the industry before going out of business.
 
It's about efficiency, Greg, not just price. But you know that.

Give the people the tools they need to do a good job, and reward them by letting them know that excellence is valued. Charge a fair tariff, treat the passengers with respect.
 
SCCutler said:
It's about efficiency, Greg, not just price. But you know that.

Give the people the tools they need to do a good job, and reward them by letting them know that excellence is valued. Charge a fair tariff, treat the passengers with respect.
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Exactly, Spike.
 
steingar said:
As the price of fuel goes up it will cost more and more. With less competition the airlines will be better able to stick it to the population at large. Be better for GA probably.
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Delta's CEO said "fares HAVE to go up to cover the increased fuel costs."

So raise the fares, dude. What was stopping you?

Oh. The competition might not do the same and you have to see which one goes broke last.
 
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The merger is about selling worldwide packages to worldwide corporations. With Jet A at $135 /barrel, they have to find profit somewhere.....

Look at the overseas routes of the two. NWA has good Pacific coverage, Delta good Euro coverage.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Isn't that kind of the point of a free market? Charge what the market can bear? Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
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What a novel idea, huh? Makes you wonder if the airline execs took the short bus to business school.

OBTW, I wonder if United is trying to take over the "void" that Skybus left? Going through Chicago last night, United's electric-sign billboard was advertising fares "Starting at $14." Hmmm. :dunno:
 
I heard a bit this morning the baggage handlers were upset they were not consulted on the merger.

Yep, that's where I'll head for advice on a merger on two companies with $38 billion in revenue!
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
What a novel idea, huh? Makes you wonder if the airline execs took the short bus to business school.
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They know EXACTLY what the hell they are doing. Every GD last one of the SOB's are working towards lining their own pockets. To hell with running an airline, lets see how much we can skim off of the company. How do they get by with that crap?
 
Might be good for AMTRACK. Who knows people might just start taking the train again.
 
I'm as capitalist as the next MBA, but I really can't stomach the executive pay packages at the big airlines. They are taking huge bonus/pension payments, golden parachutes, the works while asking the rank and file for continuous and significant givebacks.

The old military leadership saying, "A good leader eats after his men," has a lot of relevance here. Not that the execs would notice.

Run a more efficient airline and you'll do better. Southwest eats their lunch because they do it BETTER. Just compare the attitudes of flight attendants. United flight attendants are worse than the most evil mother-in-law. Southwest FA's are chipper and efficient. Show what CASH bonuses will do for morale, as opposed to worthless airline stock.
 
brien23 said:
Might be good for AMTRACK. Who knows people might just start taking the train again.
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Funny you should mention that...my fiance and I are taking Amtrak back to Boston from MSP after our wedding because 1) we both have to be back at work on time, 2) we want to enjoy our travels, and 3) we don't want to lose our bags since we'll actually have to check stuff. The train is great except that it takes just so f-ing long to get anywhere.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
EXACTLY. Last man standing wins. Which is one reason why deregulation is such a bust.
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All I can say is that in the '70's a trip from Detroit to New York was about $300 and from Detroit to Los Angeles was about $1000. I think 1970 dollars are worth 3 or 4 2008 dollars.

It was a much better experience in the airport but still nothing like flying my own plane.

What do I want from 121 ops?

Joe
 
Greg Bockelman said:
They know EXACTLY what the hell they are doing. Every GD last one of the SOB's are working towards lining their own pockets. To hell with running an airline, lets see how much we can skim off of the company. How do they get by with that crap?
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Good point. Maybe the short bus was being driven by the devil? :rofl:

The only airline flights I've taken since 2004 were one-ways - The last was in July 2004 from SEA to MSP (via PHX... That's efficient.) Other than that, I've managed to keep it all GA. Don't miss the spam cans one bit...
 
Greg Bockelman said:
They know EXACTLY what the hell they are doing. Every GD last one of the SOB's are working towards lining their own pockets. To hell with running an airline, lets see how much we can skim off of the company. How do they get by with that crap?
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Shareholders let them and passengers mostly don't give a crap as long as they get their $199 airfare to see grandma.
 
"The low-cost carrier is the guy who sets the prices," he said.
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That's an understatement, don't you all think?

Okay, as food for thought, here are PJ's top 5 things the airlines should do to become profitable again, although PJ has no real business experience, especially in the airlines:

1) Get rid of the hub-and-spoke system for domestic flights. Like Kent said, he had to go from SEA-MSP via PHX, so I'm guessing he flew USeless Airways/America's Worst to do it. I'm guessing it cost him less to do that than it would have been to go direct on NWA. Meanwhile, it cost the airline much much more. Do like SWA - hop, skip, and jump across the country on your domestic routes. I qualify this with 'domestic' flights, because it's not really practical to do this internationally, so you will still have to feed people to one of your 'international' hubs to send them overseas. However, the overall cost model should be less, I would think.

2) While we're in this vein, do fewer flights on a route, but use larger aircraft. Okay, so the airlines polled business travelers and found out two things - that they wanted lower fares and more flexibility on flight times. So they gave them these things. The problem is, these things are mutually exclusive!!! It costs the airline so much more to do 5 flights on an ERJ145 than it would to do 2 flights on a 737-700 on the same route, and still have the same capacity! Yes, so the customers would be a bit more restricted on exactly when they can travel, but if it's really important that they depart whenever they want, let them pay the thousands of dollars for NetJets. When faced with this as the other option, suddenly choosing your departure time becomes less of a priority.

3) Provide good services to your customers. Nothing builds brand loyalty and repeat business like good customer service. I have on several occasions been dissatisfied with some aspect of a product, but been so impressed with the customer service that I've gone back to that business. There are several facets to this - from providing a bit more legroom in the cabin and actually giving you a bite to eat on longer flights (Continental still does this - flights > 4 hrs you still get a hot sandwich, a salad, chips, and chocolate in coach for free!), without expecting you to pay $8 for it, to making you feel like a welcome patron and guest at the airport and on board their aircraft. Most of the time, I feel like the airline looks at me like cattle to be herded aboard and a nuisance if I ask any questions.

4) Tell the TSA and DHS to back off a bit. Yes, 9/11 was terrible and will live on forever. That's precisely why we don't need all of the ridiculous measures that are put in place now. Okay, keep the metal detectors, keep it restricted it so only ticketed pax can go through, that's all fine. Passengers are still on high alert. We now have armed FFDO's. I seriously doubt anyone's going to attempt a hijacking like 9/11 again. Making everyone take off their shoes, confiscating the bottle of water from the old lady, and doing 'additional screening' on a four-year-old while physically restraining his mother from giving him a reassuring pat on the shoulder all make traveling on the airlines less and less appealing. My recently-late grandmother (may she rest in peace) flew all the time before 9/11, and even afterwards for a bit too. When the TSA went on their huge power trip, she finally got fed up with it and stopped flying. She actually paid more for an Amtrak ticket from Pittsburgh to Chicago so she wouldn't have to go through the TSA nonsense. This one also ties in with #3 in that it makes the passengers feel more welcome as opposed to feeling like criminals.

5) Take care of your employees. I read a great article a couple of years ago in the anniversary issue of SWA's in-flight magazine. It was an interview with Herb Kelleher where he discussed his views of customer service. He views all of his employees as customers - his executive management team are his "customers", the middle-managers are their "customers", the lower-managers are their "customers", the line employees are their "customers", and the passengers are their customers. By taking care of his customers and encouraging them to take care of theirs, he creates a trickle-down effect where by taking care of his employees and making his "customers" happy, the entire company becomes focused on customer service and taking care of the passengers. My feeling is that some of these airline CEO's that get these multi-million dollar bonuses because their airline is a little less in the red, and then turn around and tell the employees that they need to voluntarily take a pay cut so that the airline can remain afloat should redirect their bonus. Instead of taking it and running, do something with it for the employees. Share it evenly - so the employees may get an extra $20 in their paycheck when all is said and done, but I think that the psychological impact of the CEO giving up these millions of dollars and giving it to the employees (combined with not asking them for a pay cut) would go a long way.

Well, there they are... I look forward to the discussion.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
And, coming soon to an airport near you, the merger of Continental and United. American is waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces of what NWA/DAL and CAL/UAL don't want or are forced do divest themselves of.
Click to expand...

Or they take the ugly bride: US.....
 
t0r0nad0 said:
That's an understatement, don't you all think?

Okay, as food for thought, here are PJ's top 5 things the airlines should do to become profitable again, although PJ has no real business experience, especially in the airlines:

1) Get rid of the hub-and-spoke system for domestic flights. Like Kent said, he had to go from SEA-MSP via PHX, so I'm guessing he flew USeless Airways/America's Worst to do it. I'm guessing it cost him less to do that than it would have been to go direct on NWA. Meanwhile, it cost the airline much much more. Do like SWA - hop, skip, and jump across the country on your domestic routes. I qualify this with 'domestic' flights, because it's not really practical to do this internationally, so you will still have to feed people to one of your 'international' hubs to send them overseas. However, the overall cost model should be less, I would think.

2) While we're in this vein, do fewer flights on a route, but use larger aircraft. Okay, so the airlines polled business travelers and found out two things - that they wanted lower fares and more flexibility on flight times. So they gave them these things. The problem is, these things are mutually exclusive!!! It costs the airline so much more to do 5 flights on an ERJ145 than it would to do 2 flights on a 737-700 on the same route, and still have the same capacity! Yes, so the customers would be a bit more restricted on exactly when they can travel, but if it's really important that they depart whenever they want, let them pay the thousands of dollars for NetJets. When faced with this as the other option, suddenly choosing your departure time becomes less of a priority.

3) Provide good services to your customers. Nothing builds brand loyalty and repeat business like good customer service. I have on several occasions been dissatisfied with some aspect of a product, but been so impressed with the customer service that I've gone back to that business. There are several facets to this - from providing a bit more legroom in the cabin and actually giving you a bite to eat on longer flights (Continental still does this - flights > 4 hrs you still get a hot sandwich, a salad, chips, and chocolate in coach for free!), without expecting you to pay $8 for it, to making you feel like a welcome patron and guest at the airport and on board their aircraft. Most of the time, I feel like the airline looks at me like cattle to be herded aboard and a nuisance if I ask any questions.

4) Tell the TSA and DHS to back off a bit. Yes, 9/11 was terrible and will live on forever. That's precisely why we don't need all of the ridiculous measures that are put in place now. Okay, keep the metal detectors, keep it restricted it so only ticketed pax can go through, that's all fine. Passengers are still on high alert. We now have armed FFDO's. I seriously doubt anyone's going to attempt a hijacking like 9/11 again. Making everyone take off their shoes, confiscating the bottle of water from the old lady, and doing 'additional screening' on a four-year-old while physically restraining his mother from giving him a reassuring pat on the shoulder all make traveling on the airlines less and less appealing. My recently-late grandmother (may she rest in peace) flew all the time before 9/11, and even afterwards for a bit too. When the TSA went on their huge power trip, she finally got fed up with it and stopped flying. She actually paid more for an Amtrak ticket from Pittsburgh to Chicago so she wouldn't have to go through the TSA nonsense. This one also ties in with #3 in that it makes the passengers feel more welcome as opposed to feeling like criminals.

5) Take care of your employees. I read a great article a couple of years ago in the anniversary issue of SWA's in-flight magazine. It was an interview with Herb Kelleher where he discussed his views of customer service. He views all of his employees as customers - his executive management team are his "customers", the middle-managers are their "customers", the lower-managers are their "customers", the line employees are their "customers", and the passengers are their customers. By taking care of his customers and encouraging them to take care of theirs, he creates a trickle-down effect where by taking care of his employees and making his "customers" happy, the entire company becomes focused on customer service and taking care of the passengers. My feeling is that some of these airline CEO's that get these multi-million dollar bonuses because their airline is a little less in the red, and then turn around and tell the employees that they need to voluntarily take a pay cut so that the airline can remain afloat should redirect their bonus. Instead of taking it and running, do something with it for the employees. Share it evenly - so the employees may get an extra $20 in their paycheck when all is said and done, but I think that the psychological impact of the CEO giving up these millions of dollars and giving it to the employees (combined with not asking them for a pay cut) would go a long way.

Well, there they are... I look forward to the discussion.
Click to expand...
Well I guess we know you will never be a CEO. YOu have too much grey matter.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
They know EXACTLY what the hell they are doing. Every GD last one of the SOB's are working towards lining their own pockets. To hell with running an airline, lets see how much we can skim off of the company. How do they get by with that crap?
Click to expand...

You don't suppose that Northwest's unemployed CEO will take his millions to buy a Condo in FL and build the mansion on the lake like Chryslers did:no:

That would be unethical.:rofl:
 
AMTRAK - their dirty little secret is they can't operate without government funding - huge annual subsidies to keep the trains running, and ticket prices on AMTRAK are comparable to airline tickets right now, anyway, with considerably longer travel times. Their food and seats are much nicer, tho!
 
gkainz said:
AMTRAK - their dirty little secret is they can't operate without government funding - huge annual subsidies to keep the trains running, and ticket prices on AMTRAK are comparable to airline tickets right now, anyway, with considerably longer travel times. Their food and seats are much nicer, tho!
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Actually more expensive. I looked into Amtrack for a trip to DC and it was 3x the cost of an airline flight in National airport.
 
smigaldi said:
passengers mostly don't give a crap as long as they get their $199 airfare to see grandma.
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Yeah. Well, I really get sick of hearing them complain about the service when they pretty much GET WHAT THEY PAY FOR.
 
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