Delaying ATC deviation

If I'm going to DAL or PHX, can ATC really give me an 'unable'? LAX puts me though the corridor, which isn't a problem, maybe 2 minutes out of the way, and SFO people have been great with transition over the bay.

I think my advice is sage for anyone. The OP had the problem, not me. Ron has problems with ATC too, but seems like I don't suffer the same. EdFred does ok with some of the easterners as well.

Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm? I'm done here. Like I said, fly the way you'all want, it's been real, it's been nice - have your people call my people, love ya - mean it, we'll do lunch.
 
docmirror said:
In fact, I'm usually arriving PHX from the north, and I get a mid-field overflight, left traffic for the 27, change to tower, and land all in one-two shot.
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This statement doesn't even make sense. There is no 27 at PHX.

Are you trying to describe an entry to 25L?

And the only way you'll get that clearance as a pop up the way you describe is if you time your arrival with a slow period in the day. Try that during a rush and they'll send you to the south side and vector you all over until they can fit you in.
 
Oops, sorry. 25L. They all run together.
 
MarkZ said:
I would appreciate you didn't. That is an untrue statement.

GA aircraft get no special priority over or under the heavy iron. We find a spot and throw you in there. Where that spot is may vary due to traffic load (and your aircraft's performance characteristics) at the time.
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So when I want to go into Schaumburg from Kalamazoo, ORD is going to make a space for me?
 
EdFred said:
Say VFR since there are no approaches in there last I knew.
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Exactly correct. There are no instrument approaches at 06C. There is no way to have an instrument approach and ensure separation with the ORD traffic. Most IFR flights cancel when they get the airport in sight. We usually provide VFR FF. :dunno:

There's a cut out in ORD's Bravo surface area that allows for VFR operations at 06C. IFR arrivals can generally expect routing over EON..JOT or FIYER..OBK. Expect vectors around ORD and MDW traffic. Depending on ORD's runway configuration you can expect to be vectored between 15-30 NM from ORD.

Now that the fourth parallel runway is finished at ORD, we run east or west almost exclusively. If we are running east flow (landing on the 9's and 10's), flying into 06C is quite the experience. :hairraise:
 
docmirror said:
Oops, sorry. 25L. They all run together.
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Have you always been a putz, or is this a recent affliction?
Oh, and please let us in the Northeast know when you're in and around our airspace so (at least for me) I can stay home and have a beer until you vacate the area.
 
DutchessFlier said:
Have you always been a putz, or is this a recent affliction?
Oh, and please let us in the Northeast know when you're in and around our airspace so (at least for me) I can stay home and have a beer until you vacate the area.
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Always.

I'll make a special trip, just for you.
 
Generally, when ATC starts sending you out to the boonies, it's because:
Your airplane doesn't have the performance to mix it up with the airplanes in the space you'd rather be in, and/or;
They don't trust your piloting performance (based on how you've performed so far) to mix it up with the airplanes in the space you'd rather be in.

Slowing down in this case rarely helps.

Now, with that said, if you're getting that "they've forgotten about me" feeling, it's entirely appropriate to give them a call. Usually a "XYZ approach, bugsmasher 14F" is all that's required to get a response that tells you they forgot or they didn't.
 
TMetzinger said:
Generally, when ATC starts sending you out to the boonies, it's because:
Your airplane doesn't have the performance to mix it up with the airplanes in the space you'd rather be in, and/or;

They don't trust your piloting performance (based on how you've performed so far) to mix it up with the airplanes in the space you'd rather be in.
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This makes a lot of sense.

Maybe why I've never had any trouble with them.;)
 
Thanks for those that have provided helpful info. This thread got interesting while I was away.

I was on VFR FF the entire flight. After getting the deviation, I heard them directing passenger traffic but saw none. About 5 mins into the deviation, I called and they assured me they didnt forget. 5 more minutes I call again. They reassure again. Another 5 mins and we were cleared on course.

Another minor deviation a few miles out, then cleared to land. I turned right to near perpendicular to get on final then turned back left and flew it in.

They didn't send me to BFE, cost about 10mins extra by cooperating but we were already late and I wanted to make best time. It worked out, my question was about possibly making it better next time.
 
MarkZ said:
Exactly correct. There are no instrument approaches at 06C. There is no way to have an instrument approach and ensure separation with the ORD traffic. Most IFR flights cancel when they get the airport in sight. We usually provide VFR FF. :dunno:

There's a cut out in ORD's Bravo surface area that allows for VFR operations at 06C. IFR arrivals can generally expect routing over EON..JOT or FIYER..OBK. Expect vectors around ORD and MDW traffic. Depending on ORD's runway configuration you can expect to be vectored between 15-30 NM from ORD.

Now that the fourth parallel runway is finished at ORD, we run east or west almost exclusively. If we are running east flow (landing on the 9's and 10's), flying into 06C is quite the experience. :hairraise:
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So, GA isn't really being fit in the ORD area. GA gets worked well around airline traffic, not in with it.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Thanks for those that have provided helpful info. This thread got interesting while I was away.

I was on VFR FF the entire flight. After getting the deviation, I heard them directing passenger traffic but saw none. About 5 mins into the deviation, I called and they assured me they didnt forget. 5 more minutes I call again. They reassure again. Another 5 mins and we were cleared on course.

Another minor deviation a few miles out, then cleared to land. I turned right to near perpendicular to get on final then turned back left and flew it in.

They didn't send me to BFE, cost about 10mins extra by cooperating but we were already late and I wanted to make best time. It worked out, my question was about possibly making it better next time.
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If you can find out when the airport is not busy with arrivals, try to plan your arrival at that time.
 
Arrival was planned irrespective of busy times. We had somewhere to be, and the biggest obstacle was getting in the darned airplane and getting underweigh; IIRC we were 3hrs behind scheduled departure.
 
EdFred said:
So, GA isn't really being fit in the ORD area. GA gets worked well around airline traffic, not in with it.
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I'm not sure if your beef with being "slighted" is because you are a GA aircraft flying IFR, or if you are VFR looking to save a few miles. Can you clear this up?

I'm curious what your ideal alternative is. Do tell.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Arrival was planned irrespective of busy times. We had somewhere to be, and the biggest obstacle was getting in the darned airplane and getting underweigh; IIRC we were 3hrs behind scheduled departure.
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Understood. Sounds like bad luck to me. You arrived either at the onset, or in the middle of, the arrival push. Good job to those boys getting you in.
 
MarkZ said:
I'm not sure if your beef with being "slighted" is because you are a GA aircraft flying IFR, or if you are VFR looking to save a few miles. Can you clear this up?

I'm curious what your ideal alternative is. Do tell.
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Yes, I realize that Chicago's runway layout is jacked up like the teeth of the extras in Deliverance compared to other places, but if the other Bravos (especially LAX/and the NYC 3) can work VFRs through the airspace rather than - 1) ignoring the VFR call up 2) just saying "remain clear of the Bravo" or 3) or providing services but sending non-121ers half way to the Quad Cities it would show that we aren't just a nuisance. However, noticing that we are referred to as FLIBs in another thread, I guess I'm expecting too much.
 
docmirror said:
I'm willing to take that risk with my txp and enc working. If there's a 737 at my altitude under or around the side of the B, then something has gone horribly wrong.
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Not true. I used to be based at Philladelphia International. I had more resolution alerts from the TCAS there than I can remember. They were all vfr traffic flying outside the bravo not talking to approach. I was normally on the base leg vector for the 27's getting into conflicts with the guys trying to skirt the B airspace headed down to the coast. It was normal for jet traffic to be outside the Bravo because of traffic density at PHL It is not a good idea to play chicken with the Bravo. Just because you are outside the lines does not mean there will not be an airliner lurking around.
 
EdFred said:
Yes, I realize that Chicago's runway layout is jacked up like the teeth of the extras in Deliverance compared to other places, but if the other Bravos (especially LAX/and the NYC 3) can work VFRs through the airspace rather than - 1) ignoring the VFR call up 2) just saying "remain clear of the Bravo" or 3) or providing services but sending non-121ers half way to the Quad Cities it would show that we aren't just a nuisance. However, noticing that we are referred to as FLIBs in another thread, I guess I'm expecting too much.
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Your first sentence said it all. Without your realization, you stated why Chicago's airspace is not as flexible as say NYC (where there is a need to fly the Hudson) or LAX (where the airport uses one runway configuration 99.9% of the time). Both other examples are restrictive towards VFR aircraft upon Bravo entry.

ATC is required to provide services to VFR aircraft on a workload permitting basis. When ATC "unables" you, we aren't dealing with a "nuisance." We are busy with IFR traffic. It might not be the controller you talk to, it might be a sector or several sectors along your route. In Chicago, airspace runs tight. Some of our sectors are no bigger than 20 miles wide, some smaller than that. We do clear VFR aircraft through bravo airspace where an operational advantage can be gained. You are right in that it does not happen often.

Your last sentence makes me wonder if you are genuine in your curiosity or just trying to stir a pot. I happen to be a FLIB as well. :yes:
 
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