Deer Valley (KDVT) to Oceanside (KOKB) - which route?

[Pilawt]

How do you know if the Santa Ana winds are forecasted? They actually says Santa Ana winds?

Normal prevailing winds in the L.A. Basin are from the west or south.

If there’s a terminal forecast for KONT for surface winds out of the north or east of 15 knots or better, there’s a clue that Banning and Cajon will be affected by Santa Anas. If winds like that are also forecast at KLGB, then it’s likely to be a howler through all the passes. Santa Anas usually last 2 to 5 days.



It might not even be that windy at Palm Springs, Victorville or Palmdale; Santa Anas happen when the pressure differential between the high deserts and the L.A. Basin force winds through the coastal passes like the nozzle of a fire hose. The air rapidly descending from the high (3000' MSL) deserts to the sea-level L.A. Basin also heats up and dries out, making it dangerous fire weather. If you live downwind of areas of dry brush, you sleep with one eye open and have valuables ready to gather up and throw in the back of the car.

Some locals also call it "earthquake weather." I don't know of any scientific connection, but the three largest L.A. earthquakes in the last 50 years (Sylmar, M6.7, 2/9/1971; Whittier Narrows, M5.9, 10/1/1987; Northridge, M6.7, 1/17/1994), all happened during Santa Anas.

 

[Ravioli]

One reason to consider going over SNA and then South is the marine layer. Oceanside is in a coastal strip that can be reporting VFR but you can't come over the hill and get there. Going around you can get below it and have a really nice view of the coast.

Don't fear SNA... they are a very nice Charlie to transit. For some reason ONT seemed unfriendly. (This being 7 yr old info, so maybe ONT is nicer these days)

[Note: my flights to Oceanside were always severe clear and launching from Fullerton]

 

[Heftiger]

I use the KONT forecast for a good picture of the winds.
Why not fly higher? I fly at 10.5 and 11.5 when I’m going over the mountains. Usually a smooth ride.

I have heard an exchange between Joshua App and a pilot that went something like:
“Joshua App, NXX, we’re getting some extreme turbulence in the Pass”

“NXX, are you experiencing structural damage or loss of control?”

“No, but it’s extreme”

“So you mean moderate turbulence?”

“....”

 

[Timbeck2]

One man's extreme can be another's moderate. In any case, that controller needed his ass kicked.

 

[Glenn D]

The Santa ana winds picked up earlier this week, but now the high pressure in the high desert has already blown "down the hill" and it is not a problem... I would recommend flying the pass, especially in the morning... I'm hoping to get out tomorrow and fly somewhere.... not sure where but it has been a month and I really want to go somewhere... driving back form So Utah last Saturday, and taking 9.5 hours to get home was no fun!....

looking at the winds forecast for Saturday,, it is going to be nice.. may have some clouds on Saturday... but with the high pressure sitting over central AZ, will be a fun flight!.. KEMT has a nice place to eat, and Cable is always a fun place to stop into.

 

[CC268]

Normal prevailing winds in the L.A. Basin are from the west or south.

If there’s a terminal forecast for KONT for surface winds out of the north or east of 15 knots or better, there’s a clue that Banning and Cajon will be affected by Santa Anas. If winds like that are also forecast at KLGB, then it’s likely to be a howler through all the passes. Santa Anas usually last 2 to 5 days.



It might not even be that windy at Palm Springs, Victorville or Palmdale; Santa Anas happen when the pressure differential between the high deserts and the L.A. Basin force winds through the coastal passes like the nozzle of a fire hose. The air rapidly descending from the high (3000' MSL) deserts to the sea-level L.A. Basin also heats up and dries out, making it dangerous fire weather. If you live downwind of areas of dry brush, you sleep with one eye open and have valuables ready to gather up and throw in the back of the car.

Some locals also call it "earthquake weather." I don't know of any scientific connection, but the three largest L.A. earthquakes in the last 50 years (Sylmar, M6.7, 2/9/1971; Whittier Narrows, M5.9, 10/1/1987; Northridge, M6.7, 1/17/1994), all happened during Santa Anas.

Thanks for the tips! It sure looks perfect right now. Winds calm at both places. I will keep those things in mind. I still think I will try my route #1 and not use Banning Pass.

 

[CC268]

One reason to consider going over SNA and then South is the marine layer. Oceanside is in a coastal strip that can be reporting VFR but you can't come over the hill and get there. Going around you can get below it and have a really nice view of the coast.

Don't fear SNA... they are a very nice Charlie to transit. For some reason ONT seemed unfriendly. (This being 7 yr old info, so maybe ONT is nicer these days)

[Note: my flights to Oceanside were always severe clear and launching from Fullerton]

Thanks for the tips.

 

[CC268]

I use the KONT forecast for a good picture of the winds.
Why not fly higher? I fly at 10.5 and 11.5 when I’m going over the mountains. Usually a smooth ride.

I have heard an exchange between Joshua App and a pilot that went something like:
“Joshua App, NXX, we’re getting some extreme turbulence in the Pass”

“NXX, are you experiencing structural damage or loss of control?”

“No, but it’s extreme”

“So you mean moderate turbulence?”

“....”

Wow what a dick. I can fly at 10.5 and 11.5, but it is very painful in the Cherokee. I have no idea what it would be like trying to get to 11.5. My dad has been to 10.5 in the Cherokee, but that was just with one person in the plane.

 

[Heftiger]

One man's extreme can be another's moderate. In any case, that controller needed his ass kicked.

I probably didn’t properly express the controllers intentions. The exchange went on for a bit longer. In my eyes the controller was trying to figure out if the pilot was headed for an impending emergency or if he was just trying to convey how uncomfortable it was. The pilot eventually conceded that the turbulence was “moderate to severe with no loss of control”. So essentially moderate since the distinction between moderate and severe is the presence of momentary loss of control.

 

[CC268]

The Santa ana winds picked up earlier this week, but now the high pressure in the high desert has already blown "down the hill" and it is not a problem... I would recommend flying the pass, especially in the morning... I'm hoping to get out tomorrow and fly somewhere.... not sure where but it has been a month and I really want to go somewhere... driving back form So Utah last Saturday, and taking 9.5 hours to get home was no fun!....

looking at the winds forecast for Saturday,, it is going to be nice.. may have some clouds on Saturday... but with the high pressure sitting over central AZ, will be a fun flight!.. KEMT has a nice place to eat, and Cable is always a fun place to stop into.

The LA area airspace looks absolutely insane. Looking at that VFR chart makes my head hurt. How in the world do you transit all that airspace?

 

[Heftiger]

Wow what a dick. I can fly at 10.5 and 11.5, but it is very painful in the Cherokee. I have no idea what it would be like trying to get to 11.5. My dad has been to 10.5 in the Cherokee, but that was just with one person in the plane.

I fly an Archer, maybe I’m just used to the climb since I do it often. I’m usually climbing with full fuel, wife, 2 kids, and all the weekend baggage.

 

[Timbeck2]

I know controllers and that controller's intention was to be a smart ass. As I was climbing out of Palm Springs the departure controller told me to climb and maintain nine thousand. At the time for read back I was bouncing around like mentioned above with stuff flying around the cabin and after I finally found the PTT on the yoke, all I could get out was "I'll do my best to..." and what I meant to say was "I'll do my best to nine thousand but I'm getting bounced around pretty good here." The controller in his nice comfy stable chair said, "Cherokee six zero uniform, read back altitude assignment."

 

[CC268]

I fly an Archer, maybe I’m just used to the climb since I do it often. I’m usually climbing with full fuel, wife, 2 kids, and all the weekend baggage.

Well I can give it a try. Guess it would be a good idea to whip out the pulse oximeter every once in a while at 11.5 eh?

 

[Timbeck2]

Wow what a dick. I can fly at 10.5 and 11.5, but it is very painful in the Cherokee. I have no idea what it would be like trying to get to 11.5. My dad has been to 10.5 in the Cherokee, but that was just with one person in the plane.

Painful how? The time it takes to reach altitude? Lack of oxygen? What do you mean? I've had mine to 12.5 with no problems.

 

[CC268]

Painful how? The time it takes to reach altitude? Lack of oxygen? What do you mean? I've had mine to 12.5 with no problems.

Climbing at 0-100ft a min sucks is what I mean. Not that it can't be done. Would be nice to have a Powerflow exhaust

 

[Heftiger]

Well I can give it a try. Guess it would be a good idea to whip out the pulse oximeter every once in a while at 11.5 eh?

If you have one that’s a great idea.
Also bring a blanket for the passengers.

I’m not trying to talk you into doing anything you’re not comfortable with. In my experience it’s usually smooth as glass at those altitudes; even on the day where the controller had the exchange with the pilot in the pass.

 

[CC268]

If you have one that’s a great idea.
Also bring a blanket for the passengers.

I’m not trying to talk you into doing anything you’re not comfortable with. In my experience it’s usually smooth as glass at those altitudes; even on the day where the controller had the exchange with the pilot in the pass.

Yea no I totally agree. I was thinking of flying out at 8500, but maybe I will bump it to 10,500. I will definitely have to do some circling west of the Oceanside area to get to altitude before flying back over.

 

[Timbeck2]

Gotcha. It's cooler now, you may even get 150.

I'm with ya. On my climb to 12.5 it took a looooooooong time from 10,000 to 12.5.

 

[CC268]

Gotcha. It's cooler now, you may even get 150.

I'm with ya. On my climb to 12.5 it took a looooooooong time from 10,000 to 12.5.

Even just climbing to 9000 on the way back from Yuma (IFR flight plan) with my instructor. It is like an exponential curve after 7500. After 7.5 its just progressively slower. But at least it can be done. And I can always drop down after the California mountains

 

[Glenn D]

The LA area airspace looks absolutely insane. Looking at that VFR chart makes my head hurt. How in the world do you transit all that airspace?

I don't.... I fly to the north east, and east from El Monte... so I stay north of the 210 fwy, along the hills, until high enough to cross the Cajon pass when going to the north east.... or when going east to AZ, I fly to Paradise VOR, then Banning airport, all on Flight Following so getting passed through the ONT class C is not a problem... most of the time I am over that airspace before getting to it... and I have never flown into or under the LAX Class B..

I started flying in uncontrolled airspace, and so tend to like staying that way.... now that I am based at a Class D airport, radio work is better, and Im good with it... but I have never flown into a Class C... will be doing that next month at Tucson.... and I am not ready just yet to try it!.. I do have ADS-B in, and find that helpful with spotting traffic when flying around the area...

Santa Paula and Camarillo airports are also fun places to go eat.. and when I go there I go up to the north around Burbank the back down.. yam not the most direct or fastest but out of the way of others... and more flying time!..

 

[CC268]

I don't.... I fly to the north east, and east from El Monte... so I stay north of the 210 fwy, along the hills, until high enough to cross the Cajon pass when going to the north east.... or when going east to AZ, I fly to Paradise VOR, then Banning airport, all on Flight Following so getting passed through the ONT class C is not a problem... most of the time I am over that airspace before getting to it... and I have never flown into or under the LAX Class B..

I started flying in uncontrolled airspace, and so tend to like staying that way.... now that I am based at a Class D airport, radio work is better, and Im good with it... but I have never flown into a Class C... will be doing that next month at Tucson.... and I am not ready just yet to try it!.. I do have ADS-B in, and find that helpful with spotting traffic when flying around the area...

Santa Paula and Camarillo airports are also fun places to go eat.. and when I go there I go up to the north around Burbank the back down.. yam not the most direct or fastest but out of the way of others... and more flying time!..

I mean I learned at KSDL and my radio work is very good (not just saying that - it really is). I am very comfortable in busy airspace as I deal with KPHX B every day. But man...Cali airspace is unbelievable. No doubt I would want Flight Following everywhere I go.

Side note - using ForeFlights Aero charts and turning off VFR charts really helps clean up the airspace. It actually doesn't look nearly as bad when you turn off the distractions of the VFR chart.

Just flying out of KDVT is insane sometimes with all the Korean and Chinese students. I feel bad for the KPHX APP controllers sometimes. No joke last night there was 10 fricken transpac/westwind guys in line for the ILS 30C at Gateway. It was really funny cause I was flying to Coolidge and on the way out there the controller was really upbeat and cool. Then as I returned back to KDVT I could tell he was getting pretty flustered at all these flight schools trying to get into Gateway for the approach. I get pretty annoyed with all the Transpac and Westwind traffic. Plus you got ATP to top it off.

 

[Timbeck2]

Wow, you make Class C sound like its a big deal. Not trying to belittle you at all but it isn't all that much different than your Class D now - better actually because you get better service.

Edit: that was in response to Glenn.

 

[jimhorner]

Came up with these two routes:

Which one would you prefer - route 1 or route 2? Or feel free to suggest an alternate route.

Thanks

Route 1: KDVT BXK BLH TRM 54CL KOKB

Route 2: KDVT BXK JUDTH MOHAK BZA IPL CANNO 3310N11654W KOKB

I’ve flown from KDVT back home to San Jose (KSJC) multiple times, and I typically file the airways (usually receive some direct to shortcuts from ATC). If I were to make this trip to KOKB, I’d probably file the following route:

KDVT AVONA V16 BLH V64 SHADI V460 JLI V208 BONDO KOKB

The highest MEA on the route is 8,500 on V460. I’d most likely file for 10,000 feet to stay above the worst of the thermal type turbulence (no guarantees on that, however) and for fuel efficiency reasons. BONDO is an IAF for the GPS RWY 24 approach to KOKB which is a good bet given the prevailing winds. According to Garmin Pilot, the highest point on the route is 5,584ft, so you’d have quite a bit of margin.

If going VFR, you could fly at either 8,500 or 10,500. Depending on your plane, the lower altitude might be a bit easier.

In a later post, you indicated you’d probably leave early in the morning, so you shouldn’t have any real turbulence issues then.






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[mtuomi]

One man's extreme can be another's moderate. In any case, that controller needed his ass kicked.

No. Turbulence intensity has clear definitions in the AIM, and when giving a PIREP, giving an incorrect intensity makes the PIREP useless to anyone.
Extreme turbulence is something 99.999% pilots will never experience in their lifetime. Even severe is often misused.

 

[CC268]

I’ve flown from KDVT back home to San Jose (KSJC) multiple times, and I typically file the airways (usually receive some direct to shortcuts from ATC). If I were to make this trip to KOKB, I’d probably file the following route:

KDVT AVONA V16 BLH V64 SHADI V460 JLI V208 BONDO KOKB

The highest MEA on the route is 8,500 on V460. I’d most likely file for 10,000 feet to stay above the worst of the thermal type turbulence (no guarantees on that, however) and for fuel efficiency reasons. BONDO is an IAF for the GPS RWY 24 approach to KOKB which is a good bet given the prevailing winds. According to Garmin Pilot, the highest point on the route is 5,584ft, so you’d have quite a bit of margin.

If going VFR, you could fly at either 8,500 or 10,500. Depending on your plane, the lower altitude might be a bit easier.

In a later post, you indicated you’d probably leave early in the morning, so you shouldn’t have any real turbulence issues then.






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That is funny you mention that route as that was the original route I was going to fly to Oceanside. I posted another thread a while back on here with that route and multiple people (MAKG among them) jumped on it and said not to fly over the Julian VOR as you would experience the worst turbulence known to man (being a little facetious there).

I am not IR yet (IR student) so I couldn't file IFR there unless I went with my instructor. If I could do 8500 out there that would be really nice.

 

[Timbeck2]

I've seen PIREPs come over our FIDO as "scary turbulence" before. Quote the AIM all you like but it boils down to one man's opinion and just like this forum, not everyone will agree with what you have to say or report. If I was on the desk and I overhead that exchange between the controller and the pilot, I'd pull him out of position.

Also if I was experiencing structural failure of my aircraft, I damn sure wouldn't be trying to pass on a PIREP, the controller and I would be having another discussion entirely.

 

[luvflyin]

Th

Yea no I totally agree. I was thinking of flying out at 8500, but maybe I will bump it to 10,500. I will definitely have to do some circling west of the Oceanside area to get to altitude before flying back over.

That in itself would be a reason to do the south route on the way back home

 

[CC268]

Th

That in itself would be a reason to do the south route on the way back home

Yea I suppose I could do Route #1 there and Route #2 home.

 

[jimhorner]

The LA area airspace looks absolutely insane. Looking at that VFR chart makes my head hurt. How in the world do you transit all that airspace?

Good thing you are working on your IR. That makes it easy, When flying on an IFR flight plan, the airspaces basically go away. I’ve flown from the Bay area to SoCal frequently, always on an IFR flight plan. It’s a piece of cake. Easy.

Once, however, due to the winds, LAX was landing a different direction, and Hawthorne wasn’t accepting IFR arrivals. SoCal canceled my IFR, and I had to do some quick chart studying to male sure I wouldn’t violate the Bravo. Much easier to stay IFR.


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[CC268]

Good thing you are working on your IR. That makes it easy, When flying on an IFR flight plan, the airspaces basically go away. I’ve flown from the Bay area to SoCal frequently, always on an IFR flight plan. It’s a piece of cake. Easy.

Once, however, due to the winds, LAX was landing a different direction, and Hawthorne wasn’t accepting IFR arrivals. SoCal canceled my IFR, and I had to do some quick chart studying to male sure I wouldn’t violate the Bravo. Much easier to stay IFR.


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That is one thing I have realized in my IR training. The IR system makes flying so easy. It's like having someone holding your hand the entire way lol. If I had an airplane that was more IFR capable and had better performance, IFR would really be the way to go.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

The LA area airspace looks absolutely insane. Looking at that VFR chart makes my head hurt. How in the world do you transit all that airspace?

It's all what you're used to. I rarely transition through LAX Class B; I'll just fly around it, under it or through it (have used the SFRA over LAX a couple of times). I enjoy going to Camarillo from Cable in Upland, and it's typically 6500' there, 5500' back with flight following, right over Burbank and just north of LAX Class B. There's satisfaction in plotting the "secret path" through this airspace.

To the east of LAX, over the Chino Hills, for instance, there is lots of overlapping B, C and D (LAX, Ontario and Chino), but decent chunks of open altitude between/around them. You do have to really mind your altimeter sometimes to avoid busting airspace.

San Diego is even crazier, but I like to get lunch at Gillespie Field, then fly west toward the coast toward Torrey Pines at 3500', then north back home. (Gillespie is tough to spot coming from the east due to terrain, though...it hides behind a hill. )

 

[jimhorner]

That is funny you mention that route as that was the original route I was going to fly to Oceanside. I posted another thread a while back on here with that route and multiple people (MAKG among them) jumped on it and said not to fly over the Julian VOR as you would experience the worst turbulence known to man (being a little facetious there).

I am not IR yet (IR student) so I couldn't file IFR there unless I went with my instructor. If I could do 8500 out there that would be really nice.

Well, even if you aren’t IFR yet, you can still fly the route, just stay at VFR altitudes. Airways are typically pretty good paths regardless, because they tend to give the best terrain clearances.

At 8,500, you have quite a bit of terrain clearance. I’d stay high until Julian and then start the descent. You should be fine.

And good luck on the IFR rating. It’s well worth the effort.

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[Skates97]

Yea no I totally agree. I was thinking of flying out at 8500, but maybe I will bump it to 10,500. I will definitely have to do some circling west of the Oceanside area to get to altitude before flying back over.

If you depart Oceanside and head east towards DEGLE, then north over Temecula and Hemet before turning east through the Banning Pass it will be simple without circling to climb. I would be more worried about getting bounced around over the hills near Julian than through the pass. That being said the winds look to be pretty tame this weekend. Enjoy your flight.

As to the crazy SoCal airspace, maybe it's just because this is where I learned to fly but it is not that difficult to navigate. Just pay attention to your charts. The controllers for the most part are great, even the ones at KONT. We did some practice stuff there during my PPL and on my checkride the examiner had me divert to KONT and we did a touch-n-go there before heading back to KCNO.

 

[Skates97]

It's all what you're used to. I rarely transition through LAX Class B; I'll just fly around it, under it or through it (have used the SFRA over LAX a couple of times). I enjoy going to Camarillo from Cable in Upland, and it's typically 6500' there, 5500' back with flight following, right over Burbank and just north of LAX Class B. There's satisfaction in plotting the "secret path" through this airspace.

To the east of LAX, over the Chino Hills, for instance, there is lots of overlapping B, C and D (LAX, Ontario and Chino), but decent chunks of open altitude between/around them. You do have to really mind your altimeter sometimes to avoid busting airspace.

San Diego is even crazier, but I like to get lunch at Gillespie Field, then fly west toward the coast toward Torrey Pines at 3500', then north back home. (Gillespie is tough to spot coming from the east due to terrain, though...it hides behind a hill. )

Sightseeing along the coast is fun too. One the way back from breakfast in Camarillo we went along Malibu and Pacific Pallisades, transited through KSMO's airspace, and then stayed under the Bravo shelf for some turns over downtown LA, fun times. As you said, there are a lot of ways around, under, or through the different airspaces.

 

[jimhorner]

I've seen PIREPs come over our FIDO as "scary turbulence" before. Quote the AIM all you like but it boils down to one man's opinion and just like this forum, not everyone will agree with what you have to say or report. If I was on the desk and I overhead that exchange between the controller and the pilot, I'd pull him out of position.

Agree with this. Also depends on the experience level of the pilot and the type aircraft. As an exteme example, a F-16 pilot flying his high wing-loading plane very fast through an area with a lot of thermal activity might not even notice it as more than light chop, while a student pilot in a C150 might have their hands full.

There’s a story on the Viking pilots forum of when a well known, high time Viking instructor was flying alongside some sort of Cessna, I think it was a 210. The Cessna pilot was complaining a lot about the turbulence. Due to the flexibility of the wooden spar in the Viking’s wing, the wing of the Viking was flexing and absorbing a lot of the turbulence, and the Viking pilot wasn’t even noticing the bumps.

Turbulence is relative. That’s why it helps to see the reporting aircraft type in the PIREP. Helps to judge the potential effect on your own plane.


[Edit]I found a link to the story about the Viking in turbulence. At http://160knots.com/N4201B.htm, about halfway down the page, it’s under “Turbulence”.

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[CC268]

Well, even if you aren’t IFR yet, you can still fly the route, just stay at VFR altitudes. Airways are typically pretty good paths regardless, because they tend to give the best terrain clearances.

At 8,500, you have quite a bit of terrain clearance. I’d stay high until Julian and then start the descent. You should be fine.

And good luck on the IFR rating. It’s well worth the effort.

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I think what freaks me out is the note on the VFR chart by the Julian VOR that says Extreme tubuluence during high winds

 

[jimhorner]

I think what freaks me out is the note on the VFR chart by the Julian VOR that says Extreme tubuluence during high winds

Yeah, but high winds at what altitude, from which direction, and at what strength? If the winds are from the coast and screaming at the ridge on which Julian is located, then there will be lots of updrafts on the windward side and lots of turbulence on the leeward side.

Take a look on the day of the flight, and have an out if the turbulence is more than you want to deal with, but I’d say this will give you a good learning experience. You seem to be flying a lot right now, expanding your limitations. This will be a good way for you to practice your decision making skills. Look at the winds (windy.com is a great resource) take a look at the isobars, and then go fly unless things are really bad. Make sure you have an out if it’s worse than expected, but use it as a learning experience. I suspect that, especially if you are flying in the morning, and at 8,500 feet, you’ll be fine.


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[CC268]

Yeah, but high winds at what altitude, from which direction, and at what strength? If the winds are from the coast and screaming at the ridge on which Julian is located, then there will be lots of updrafts on the windward side and lots of turbulence on the leeward side.

Take a look on the day of the flight, and have an out if the turbulence is more than you want to deal with, but I’d say this will give you a good learning experience. You seem to be flying a lot right now, expanding your limitations. This will be a good way for you to practice your decision making skills. Look at the winds (windy.com is a great resource) take a look at the isobars, and then go fly unless things are really bad. Make sure you have an out if it’s worse than expected, but use it as a learning experience. I suspect that, especially if you are flying in the morning, and at 8,500 feet, you’ll be fine.


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Yea I think you are right. I don't think there will be issues with low winds.

 

[Skates97]

I think what freaks me out is the note on the VFR chart by the Julian VOR that says Extreme tubuluence during high winds

Winds are forecast to be fairly light Saturday, only around 3-5 knots at 5,000' and 10-15 knots at 10,000'. It should be a fairly smooth ride whether you go through the Banning Pass or south over the hills near Julian. You could go one route there and the other route back just to see some different places.

 

[CC268]

Winds are forecast to be fairly light Saturday, only around 3-5 knots at 5,000' and 10-15 knots at 10,000'. It should be a fairly smooth ride whether you go through the Banning Pass or south over the hills near Julian. You could go one route there and the other route back just to see some different places.

Yea that will likely be the plan