Deer Valley (KDVT) to Oceanside (KOKB) - which route?

[CC268]

Came up with these two routes:

Which one would you prefer - route 1 or route 2? Or feel free to suggest an alternate route.

Thanks

Route 1: KDVT BXK BLH TRM 54CL KOKB

Route 2: KDVT BXK JUDTH MOHAK BZA IPL CANNO 3310N11654W KOKB

 

[Pilawt]

Assuming benign winds and weather, Route 1 would be my choice. I've done that one a number of times between Fallbrook and the Phoenix area. Route 2 puts you in with the KSAN arrivals.

Depending on conditions you can get turbulence over and on the lee side of the mountains anywhere from Banning Pass to the border.

Flight following is a good idea while transiting the KPSP - KTRM area, even above the 10,000' ceiling of the KPSP TRSA.

 

[CC268]

Assuming benign winds and weather, Route 1 would be my choice. I've done that one a number of times between Fallbrook and the Phoenix area. Route 2 puts you in with the KSAN arrivals.

Depending on conditions you can get turbulence over and on the lee side of the mountains anywhere from Banning Pass to the border.

Yea that is what I was thinking as well. I've been wanting to do this flight for quite some time. Seems like some wind is unavoidable due to the coastal winds.

Unfortunately there doesn’t really appear to be any route that avoids mountains going into California lol.

 

[CC268]

Read PILAWT's words carefully, "assuming benign winds..." Look at the caution note on the sectional chart near the Julian VORTAC. I found out it's there for a reason...and not necessarily in just high wind conditions either.

I've read that. What is your suggested route? My route is north of Julian.

Maybe the general consensus on PoA is to just not fly to California unless your in a King Air or 737?

 

[Timbeck2]

Maybe the general consensus on PoA is to just not fly to California unless your in a King Air or 737?

Nope. Did it in my Cherokee so you can too. I WILL say that Banning is no joke; worst turbulence I've ever experienced in my plane so be careful.

 

[CC268]

Your route is fine. Just be cognizant that things can be pretty bumpy. I have never flown that exact route since I'm based further south than you. I usually fly V66 to at least the KUMBA intersection west of El Centro and then head west or north west depending on final destination.

You should get out and fly...push your comfort zone within reason.

That is pretty much my route 2 so that is an option as well if it isn't as risky as route 1.

 

[CC268]

Nope. Did it in my Cherokee so you can too. I WILL say that Banning is no joke; worst turbulence I've ever experienced in my plane so be careful.

Yea this route is south of banning pass, but I have heard from several that banning pass can be very windy (makes sense - I've driven through there many times).

Maybe I will wait till I upgrade to the Falcon Jet - I can fly at FL410 and avoid the winds.

 

[Timbeck2]

Well if Banning is windy, just South of it will be too. Just plan it for early in the morning when it won't be AS windy but those wind generators are there for a reason. You'll be fine.

And don't sell our little Cherokees short. It might take a little while longer and require more planning, but they're capable airplanes.

 

[CC268]

Well if Banning is windy, just South of it will be too. Just plan it for early in the morning when it won't be AS windy but those wind generators are there for a reason. You'll be fine.

And don't sell our little Cherokees short. It might take a little while longer and require more planning, but they're capable airplanes.

Yea true. I’d be in the air by 6:30AM so hopefully that would be early enough. Land and come back home.

Idk we will see...don’t want to die in a mid air break up in banning pass. Might just stick to flying south to the beautiful Eloy

 

[CC268]

I hope you're joking.

Challenging yourself incrementally is a great way to build confidence and improve skill. I kind of wish I had kept silent because it sounds like you're talking yourself out of this.

I don't fly further than 50 miles, just too risky. Just kidding. I've flown to North Las Vegas, Twentynine Palms, Yuma, etc. I've been flying on average about 8-12 hours a week. Shorter trips during the week and longer ones on the weekend. Working on my IR and almost 3/4 of the way through with that. I am ultra conservative and push my self in very small increments.

I wasn't all that worried about flying to KOKB, but PoA does have a tendency to push me in the other direction. It's one reason why I don't ask for advice on here much anymore. I swear when MAKG was on here that guy would talk you out of flying all together. It was ridiculous.

 

[Pilawt]

Well if Banning is windy, just South of it will be too. Just plan it for early in the morning when it won't be AS windy but those wind generators are there for a reason. You'll be fine.

It depends. Sometimes going over the mountains to the south of San Jacinto is preferable to the venturi tube that is the pass itself. I can’t generalize; you just have to check forecasts and PIREPs the day you go.

And don't sell our little Cherokees short. It might take a little while longer and require more planning, but they're capable airplanes.

True!

 

[CC268]

It depends. Sometimes going over the mountains to the south of San Jacinto is preferable to the venturi tube that is the pass itself. I can’t generalize; you just have to check forecasts and PIREPs the day you go.


True!

This is exactly what I was thinking. I'd take Banning if I wanted to go to more central california though for sure.

My hangar neighbor who is building the RV14 has a 172 - 160HP. He does a big loop. Starts at KDVT - goes through Banning Pass to Torrance. Then up to Sacramento. Then over to Truckee Tahoe, then over Tahoe at like 11k and then back down to KDVT. Said he has never really had any issues.

 

[danhagan]

Nope. Did it in my Cherokee so you can too. I WILL say that Banning is no joke; worst turbulence I've ever experienced in my plane so be careful.

What altitude did you fly? Have flown through there mid day (Texas to Fullerton) at least 6 times and have hit some mild, but I stay pretty high (usually 12500 or 10500 westbound). One of the trips, ground temps near Blythe were at 122* F.

 

[Timbeck2]

I certainly wasn't trying to talk you out of it, I was just giving you my experience which was back last summer when the thermals were in full force. Pushing yourself is the best way to gain confidence. Little story: I flew to Ryan to get my transponder check done on a fairly calm day but the forecast was for the winds to pick up considerably. A couple friends of mine also flew in to Ryan for the same thing so it took longer than expected because we ate breakfast and waiting until all three transponder checks were finished before we left. Two of us were flying back to Tucson, the other to Falcon Field. My friend in his Arrow landed 21 ahead of me and I was a few miles behind him. He asked for a 180 on the runway to taxi back to our hangars leaving me a choice to either land 11 with a 16 gusting to 23 knot crosswind or wait for him to exit the runway. I chose to land 11 with the crosswind. Since it was from the right, I lined up right of the center line just in case it got gusty...it did. It wasn't the prettiest or the smoothest landing I ever did but I'm glad I did it and I could re-use the airplane afterwards. After that, cross winds didn't scare me as much but I never would have gained that confidence had I waited and landed into the wind on 21.

Granted 16 gusting to 23 doesn't sound like much to the more experienced pilots on this forum but for me, it was a personal victory.

 

[CC268]

What altitude did you fly? Have flown through there mid day (Texas to Fullerton) at least 6 times and have hit some mild, but I stay pretty high (usually 12500 or 10500 westbound). One of the trips, ground temps near Blythe were at 122* F.

I can't tell is that a Tiger in your avatar? Highest I have been in the Cherokee is 9500. My dad has been at 10,500. I was planning on 8500 out there and 9500 back. Climbing any higher in the Cherokee is just painful. And with the heftier winds your flying slower than the cars below you

 

[Timbeck2]

What altitude did you fly? Have flown through there mid day (Texas to Fullerton) at least 6 times and have hit some mild, but I stay pretty high (usually 12500 or 10500 westbound). One of the trips, ground temps near Blythe were at 122* F.

I landed at Palm Springs then went through the pass so I was low.

 

[CC268]

I certainly wasn't trying to talk you out of it, I was just giving you my experience which was back last summer when the thermals were in full force. Pushing yourself is the best way to gain confidence. Little story: I flew to Ryan to get my transponder check done on a fairly calm day but the forecast was for the winds to pick up considerably. A couple friends of mine also flew in to Ryan for the same thing so it took longer than expected because we ate breakfast and waiting until all three transponder checks were finished before we left. Two of us were flying back to Tucson, the other to Falcon Field. My friend in his Arrow landed 21 ahead of me and I was a few miles behind him. He asked for a 180 on the runway to taxi back to our hangars leaving me a choice to either land 11 with a 16 gusting to 23 knot crosswind or wait for him to exit the runway. I chose to land 11 with the crosswind. Since it was from the right, I lined up right of the center line just in case it got gusty...it did. It wasn't the prettiest or the smoothest landing I ever did but I'm glad I did it and I could re-use the airplane afterwards. After that, cross winds didn't scare me as much but I never would have gained that confidence had I waited and landed into the wind on 21.

Granted 16 gusting to 23 doesn't sound like much to the more experienced pilots on this forum but for me, it was a personal victory.

Oh wow yea I imagine in the summer that trip would be rough!

Crosswinds don't bug me much. I landed 14G18 direct 90 degree crosswind at Wickenburg a few weeks back and it honestly wasn't that bad. The Cherokee makes it easy to be honest. But yea I enjoy pushing myself a bit each trip and it is definitely a big confidence booster.

I'd really like to get my tail wheel rating ( have 8 hours in tailwheels) and do the Bush Air back country course. I might do this after my IR...we will see.

 

[danhagan]

I can't tell is that a Tiger in your avatar? Highest I have been in the Cherokee is 9500. My dad has been at 10,500. I was planning on 8500 out there and 9500 back. Climbing any higher in the Cherokee is just painful. And with the heftier winds your flying slower than the cars below you

Yes, a Tiger ... just sold it.

I landed at Palm Springs then went through the pass so I was low.

Ouch! Hope it was winter. I usually refuel Marana AZ and it feels like a blast furnace descending into that area during summer (Marana was 105* when the Blythe-Palm Springs area was nearing 120*).

 

[jkaduk]

The reason people have problems with Julian is that they doggedly head straight for the VOR which is on one of the highest mountains in the area. There's lower terrain south of the VOR. Look where the town of Julian is. You'll be at 8500' going westbound. If you can't traverse that area (the town of Julian) at 8500 you shouldn't be flying that day. I've never had a problem getting from the coast to the desert or vise versa due to winds. Having said that the lowest terrain in the area is if you follow Interstate 8. I believe the highest it gets is about 4500'. Adds unnecessary distance though IMO.

 

[CC268]

The reason people have problems with Julian is that they doggedly head straight for the VOR which is on one of the highest mountains in the area. There's lower terrain south of the VOR. Look where the town of Julian is. You'll be at 8500' going westbound. If you can't traverse that area (the town of Julian) at 8500 you shouldn't be flying that day. I've never had a problem getting from the coast to the desert or vise versa due to winds. Having said that the lowest terrain in the area is if you follow Interstate 8. I believe the highest it gets is about 4500'. Adds unnecessary distance though IMO.

Thanks for the info - I think I will likely stick with my route #1...highest terrain is 6300' within a 2nm radius. That gives me 2200' of clearance on the way out there. Can't imagine that wouldn't be enough. Not to mention flying in the morning it really shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Pilawt]

This is exactly what I was thinking. I'd take Banning if I wanted to go to more central california though for sure.

I flew in the SoCal area for almost 30 years, and traversed Banning Pass frequently. I can only remember one really uncomfortable experience in Banning Pass, that made me turn around and go home (March 26, 1977, in Cherokee 180 N4799T, but who's counting?).

That said, I'd only use the pass now from Phoenix if bound for a destination in the L.A. Basin proper. Going to central California I usually go BLH L22 LUCER KWJF ARVIN -- smoother, avoids L.A. traffic, and either KAPV or KWJF are decent fuel/grub stops. Even going to Van Nuys or Whiteman I'll stay north of the San Gabriels, same reason.

 

[luvflyin]

Ditto on all of the above. I've done a lot of flying in that area and have never not gotten bumped around at least a little. It can get rough on the south route to. Don't be in a rush to get down until the high stuff is behind you. My rule of thumb is to think about it a little more when the winds are up around 20-25knots

 

[CC268]

I flew in the SoCal area for almost 30 years, and traversed Banning Pass frequently. I can only remember one really uncomfortable experience in Banning Pass, that made me turn around and go home (March 26, 1977, in Cherokee 180 N4799T, but who's counting?).

That said, I'd only use the pass now from Phoenix if bound for a destination in the L.A. Basin proper. Going to central California I usually go BLH L22 LUCER KWJF ARVIN -- smoother, avoids L.A. traffic, and either KAPV or KWJF are decent fuel/grub stops. Even going to Van Nuys or Whiteman I'll stay north of the San Gabriels, same reason.

Thanks for the tips I will remember that route if I ever go to central California

 

[CC268]

Ditto on all of the above. I've done a lot of flying in that area and have never not gotten bumped around at least a little. It can get rough on the south route to. Don't be in a rush to get down until the high stuff is behind you. My rule of thumb is to think about it a little more when the winds are up around 20-25knots

Yea this is exactly the rule of thumb I was going to use. I will check winds aloft with my Stratus on the way there.

 

[CC268]

Assuming benign winds and weather, Route 1 would be my choice. I've done that one a number of times between Fallbrook and the Phoenix area. Route 2 puts you in with the KSAN arrivals.

Depending on conditions you can get turbulence over and on the lee side of the mountains anywhere from Banning Pass to the border.

Flight following is a good idea while transiting the KPSP - KTRM area, even above the 10,000' ceiling of the KPSP TRSA.

I will be on Flight FOllowing for sure, but isn't the TRSA optional?

 

[Pilawt]

I will be on Flight FOllowing for sure, but isn't the TRSA optional?

Yes. Per AIM (3-5-6(c)): "Participation. Pilots operating under VFR are encouraged to contact the radar approach control and avail themselves of the TRSA Services. However, participation is voluntary on the part of the pilot."

 

[Glenn D]

I fly out to Tuscon from KEMT once in awhile, and through the pass can be a fun ride... always with Flight Following.. and going out at 9500, back at 10,500... cuz it is a little smoother. The Palm Springs TRSA is nothing really,, FF is always the way to go and no additional clearance needed... When I was in training for my PPL, we went to Palm Springs in my Dad's Archer... he was sitting in the back, and the CFI in the fight seat... We left Hemet and went north over the ridge to Banning, then east to PS... the bumps were the worst I have ever been in!.. things were flying around inside the airplane... I could not read the instruments!... I thought we were going to die!.. but looking at my Dad and the CFI, who were sitting there riding out the bumps like nothing was happening, I found to be strange... Dad was catching pencils that were floating around in the air...

We were cleared to land at PSA, and I thought we would be slammed into the ground... at about 300 ft up, it was perfectly smooth,,, no wind... not the best landing I have ever made, but I was really shaken up... a few hours later the air was smooth,,,, flight home was great.. I did learn a lot that day but still do not like the bumps through the pass...

 

[CC268]

I fly out to Tuscon from KEMT once in awhile, and through the pass can be a fun ride... always with Flight Following.. and going out at 9500, back at 10,500... cuz it is a little smoother. The Palm Springs TRSA is nothing really,, FF is always the way to go and no additional clearance needed... When I was in training for my PPL, we went to Palm Springs in my Dad's Archer... he was sitting in the back, and the CFI in the fight seat... We left Hemet and went north over the ridge to Banning, then east to PS... the bumps were the worst I have ever been in!.. things were flying around inside the airplane... I could not read the instruments!... I thought we were going to die!.. but looking at my Dad and the CFI, who were sitting there riding out the bumps like nothing was happening, I found to be strange... Dad was catching pencils that were floating around in the air...

We were cleared to land at PSA, and I thought we would be slammed into the ground... at about 300 ft up, it was perfectly smooth,,, no wind... not the best landing I have ever made, but I was really shaken up... a few hours later the air was smooth,,,, flight home was great.. I did learn a lot that day but still do not like the bumps through the pass...

Sounds intense. Hopefully I make it out alive if I fly over to California. My ole Cherokee can’t handle anything more than light turb

 

[luvflyin]

Sounds intense. Hopefully I make it out alive if I fly over to California. My ole Cherokee can’t handle anything more than light turb

When ya goin?

 

[CC268]

When ya goin?

Maybe on Saturday morning real early if I don't get too scurred and I'm not shaking in my boots. I will probably land and then take right back off so I don't get stuck in any afternoon winds over the mountains.

 

[luvflyin]

Maybe on Saturday morning real early if I don't get too scurred and I'm not shaking in my boots. I will probably land and then take right back off so I don't get stuck in any afternoon winds over the mountains.

Looking at the Prog Charts, there may be some frontal activity. I'd watch the trends, get a weather briefing Friday and an update Saturday morning. May be smooth, may not. I'll be wishin smooth sailin for you

 

[skiermike]

Flew 10 years in SoCal, never had a problem with the banning pass.

 

[Skates97]

Yea this route is south of banning pass, but I have heard from several that banning pass can be very windy (makes sense - I've driven through there many times).

Flew 10 years in SoCal, never had a problem with the banning pass.

Banning Pass really isn't bad, even if it is windy. You might get bounced around a little but most likely not too bad. I've flown it a number of times on regular trips from SoCal to Phoenix. Last time coming back to SoCal my ground speed at 8,500' dropped to 115 mph just East of the pass (my Mooney trues at 160-162 mph...) It was still fairly smooth, at least smooth enough that my wife didn't mind. I would rather be going through the pass if it is windy than over the hills to the south.

My night cross country for my PPL was from KCNO through the Banning Pass to KTRM. A few weeks after getting my PPL I rented a Cherokee from the school and flew through the Banning Pass to go to Phoenix. I really wouldn't get too worried about it. I have also flown the route to the south as well just for fun and sight seeing. If you want an easy route then just follow I-10 West, after you get through the Banning Pass then head South over French Valley and on to Oceanside. Flight Following in the area is excellent, the controllers with SoCal approach are great.

 

[Skates97]

Any particular reason you are going to KOKB instead of KCRQ? Palomar has a nice restaurant on the field with reasonable prices, although they only have 5 transient parking places now so if those are full it's a $20 ramp fee to park at the FBO and go to the restaurant. If the coast is socked in with a marine layer then Ramona KRNM is usually clear if you need to get fuel.

Palomar for Breakfast

 

[Pilawt]

Banning Pass really isn't bad, even if it is windy. You might get bounced around a little but most likely not too bad. I've flown it a number of times on regular trips from SoCal to Phoenix. Last time coming back to SoCal my ground speed at 8,500' dropped to 115 mph just East of the pass (my Mooney trues at 160-162 mph...) It was still fairly smooth, at least smooth enough that my wife didn't mind. I would rather be going through the pass if it is windy than over the hills to the south.

With the normal afternoon westerly SoCal seabreezes, Banning Pass is rarely a major problem. Maybe a little bumpy here and there, and some slow going if you’re westbound, but nothing dramatic. It’s when the east-northeasterly “Santa Ana” winds are afoot that the Pass might give you the ol’ “pair-of-sneakers-in-a-spin-dryer” experience. If it’s between September and April, and high pressure builds over Nevada and Utah, check PIREPs carefully.

 

[Skates97]

With the normal afternoon westerly SoCal seabreezes, Banning Pass is rarely a major problem. Maybe a little bumpy here and there, and some slow going if you’re westbound, but nothing dramatic. It’s when the east-northeasterly “Santa Ana” winds are afoot that the Pass might give you the ol’ “pair-of-sneakers-in-a-spin-dryer” experience. If it’s between September and April, and high pressure builds over Nevada and Utah, check PIREPs carefully.

When the Santa Ana's are forecast I don't look at PIREPS, I just don't fly. We get some wicked nasty stuff at KAJO where my plane is at the east end of Santa Ana Canyon when they are blowing.

One of my favorite sites for getting a big picture of the winds is https://www.windy.com

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

When the Santa Ana's are forecast I don't look at PIREPS, I just don't fly. We get some wicked nasty stuff at KAJO where my plane is at the east end of Santa Ana Canyon when they are blowing.

One of my favorite sites for getting a big picture of the winds is https://www.windy.com

Yeah, Santa Anas suck. The worst "cocktail shaker" experience I've had--and this was in pretty light winds--was over Rialto at the base of the Cajon Pass. I have never struggled that hard to keep the wings level in my 350 hours of flying! Stuff was bouncing all over the cabin. I try to avoid that area, but during Phase 1 I had to go that route every time until I completed the 40 hours.

 

[Rgbeard]

When you get to Oceanside, just don't confuse the runway and Hwy 76.

(not a joke. it's been done.)

 

[CC268]

When the Santa Ana's are forecast I don't look at PIREPS, I just don't fly. We get some wicked nasty stuff at KAJO where my plane is at the east end of Santa Ana Canyon when they are blowing.

One of my favorite sites for getting a big picture of the winds is https://www.windy.com

How do you know if the Santa Ana winds are forecasted? They actually says Santa Ana winds?

 

[CC268]

My current thoughts and views on Banning Pass:

I think I will stick to the South!