Decision making...

[vxmine]

Thanks to everyone's comments in my "Interested" discussion thread.

I've been doing a lot of reading, especially on accidents (AOPA), and to me, it looks like the majority of accidents (fatal) have to deal with decision making. Some are due to mechanical failures, etc, but many of the results ring of pilot error or lack of making the RIGHT decision.

Do you guys/gals find this true also?

What's my point? I have not started training yet, but I already realize that being able to make the right situational decisions are key. Are the CFI's taught to throw a lot of decision making techniques at the trainee? To me, I want to be thrown into decision situations, in a controlled CFI environment, to help me make the right choice as often as possible. It sounds like you solo pretty early in the training, but is that the best thing to do?

Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I just want to make sure I have all the tools available to make this an enjoyable hobby.

Thanks! I'm an IT guy, so sometimes I over analyze things, so please bare with me!

James

 

[Henning]

That is exactly correct, the 'danger' of flying lives mostly between the ears of the pilot.

 

[LDJones]

Yes, your CFI will be introducing lots of "what if" scenarios during your training, including before solo. You won't be soloed before you're ready for it. But you're ahead of the game by studying what CAN go wrong in advance, and recognizing the majority of the gotch'yas in aviation begin and end with PIC decision-making.

 

[poadeleted20]

I agree with Henning an Jonesy -- maintaining situational awareness and making good decisions are the most important things in flying safely. If you understand that up front, you're probably going to be a dream student for your instructor.

 

[Jaybird180]

If you're the type of person that "throws caution to the wind" avaition may be hazardous to your health. If OTOH, you are methodical in your approach...

The way we do some things is the way we do every-thing

 

[Z06_Mir]

Even in bad mechanical situations it is still possible to survive most situations with good decision making. If you attempt the "impossible" turn when you know it's coined the "impossible" turn for a reason, that's a poor decision and could end very poorly for you vs landing straight ahead. There's a great video about a guy who this happened to on this forum and he landed straight ahead and walked away. The new PTS (practical test standards) is scenario based which basically has the applicant make decisions based on information the examiner gives them. I was only the 2nd or maybe 1st ride of my DPE with these standards so it was not quite normal for him but I could see the "point" even though it's stilly. Being a pilot there are decisions every single second and though some of them aren't life or death, many of them are.

 

[Rayden]

Looks like we're at the same exact stage and same exact mindset. I've been thinking about the same thing.

Thanks to everyone's comments in my "Interested" discussion thread.

I've been doing a lot of reading, especially on accidents (AOPA), and to me, it looks like the majority of accidents (fatal) have to deal with decision making. Some are due to mechanical failures, etc, but many of the results ring of pilot error or lack of making the RIGHT decision.

Do you guys/gals find this true also?

What's my point? I have not started training yet, but I already realize that being able to make the right situational decisions are key. Are the CFI's taught to throw a lot of decision making techniques at the trainee? To me, I want to be thrown into decision situations, in a controlled CFI environment, to help me make the right choice as often as possible. It sounds like you solo pretty early in the training, but is that the best thing to do?

Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I just want to make sure I have all the tools available to make this an enjoyable hobby.

Thanks! I'm an IT guy, so sometimes I over analyze things, so please bare with me!

James

 

[denverpilot]

Are the CFI's taught to throw a lot of decision making techniques at the trainee?

Formally taught to create scenarios, no. The CFI curriculum and requirements are public, you can read them.

Most CFIs have to build scenarios from things they have either experienced themselves, have done their homework reading accident reports on, or have learned from other aviators.

Experience and the willingness to learn and research on their own, counts BIG time when selecting a CFI. The absolute best way to handle this in the real world is references.

To me, I want to be thrown into decision situations, in a controlled CFI environment, to help me make the right choice as often as possible. It sounds like you solo pretty early in the training, but is that the best thing to do?

Solo is done in a VERY controlled environment. It's debatable as to its value by some, but for most people it's a confidence builder. Lots of the Primary training is building confidence, then breaking it by tossing some more difficult things at the student, then building it up again, then breaking it. Culmination is a checkride where you're deemed able to safely carry other human lives aloft. Training and learning do not end at the ticket.

Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I just want to make sure I have all the tools available to make this an enjoyable hobby.

Thanks! I'm an IT guy, so sometimes I over analyze things, so please bare with me!

Welcome to the club, James. Haha.

Best advice I can give, because you're at the stage where you "don't know what you don't know" is to ask around at the airport for references and get some flying in. Fly with other folks, other instructors too from time to time. I've never met ONE instructor who could "teach it all" when it comes to aviation. I've been pretty picky about instructors over the years but my first instructor I wasn't and ended up with the jackpot... Highly experience at flying lots of types, lots of different kinds of "missions" and a good TEACHER who modified his style to match the student. Later instructors have usually met all of those as well, but a couple were duds in one area or another.

Problem is, you can't recognize it at first. Until you've steeped in the tea for a while and the culture, you're at risk of running across a mediocre instructor. Most of the truly "bad" ones are weeded out by peers and airport scuttlebutt. That's why asking around is important. Mediocre instructors always have things they can teach you. Great instructors weed out your bad habits built by you or mediocre instructors without you even knowing they're doing it.

You're in IT so think about it this way... How would you design a troubleshooting class? Are there great "IT Pilots" who can fix anything in 5 minutes but can't teach how they do it? The bell curve factors in here too... Not every instructor can be as good as they think they are. Some get complacent. Some work hard to be better. Normal human condition.

Since you're an IT guy, you're REALLY not going to like it when you run into a "well-respected" instructor on the airport who has his FAR knowledge of a particular topic completely wrong, and won't even let you show them in the regs on paper. I promise, you'll eventually run into that guy. That guy ****es me off more than anything.

Once any pilot stops learning and thinks they know it all, stay away. They're an accident or a violation waiting to happen. Unfortunately at your stage of learning, any CFI knows oodles more than you do about flying. So...

Just get started and you'll figure out the ones to avoid... there's no way to completely handle it via analysis. You kinda have to experience it.

The somewhat "Gold Seal" program was once intended to be a way to find the really good instructors, but you can go read the rules on how a Gold Seal is obtained, and probably see the logical faults if you've ever written any computer code.

http://www.pilotratings.com/goldseal.html

What's fun is asking an unsuspecting CFI why they haven't obtained it. Then shut up and listen and watch closely. I know GREAT CFIs who gave good solid reasons and mediocre CFIs who came up with all SORTS of interesting excuses, or who'd never heard of the program.

That program is the closest you'll get to any official CFI rating system.

 

[murphey]

That program is the closest you'll get to any official CFI rating system.

I've always felt the best rating system (not at a puppy mill - great definition!) was how busy the CFI/CFII is, and the opinion of various DEs on the students they see from that CFI/CFII.

 

[jesse]

The somewhat "Gold Seal" program was once intended to be a way to find the really good instructors, but you can go read the rules on how a Gold Seal is obtained, and probably see the logical faults if you've ever written any computer code.

http://www.pilotratings.com/goldseal.html

What's fun is asking an unsuspecting CFI why they haven't obtained it. Then shut up and listen and watch closely. I know GREAT CFIs who gave good solid reasons and mediocre CFIs who came up with all SORTS of interesting excuses, or who'd never heard of the program.

That program is the closest you'll get to any official CFI rating system.

I'm not sure that the program really means much -- as there are lots of less than ideal puppy mill instructors that would qualify for that in a hurry in extremely structured environments. It's unlikely I'll be signing off 10 applicants in a two year period anytime soon. I tend to be around 7 or 8, so far at 100% pass.

 

[SteveinIndy]

Yes, your CFI will be introducing lots of "what if" scenarios during your training, including before solo. You won't be soloed before you're ready for it. But you're ahead of the game by studying what CAN go wrong in advance, and recognizing the majority of the gotch'yas in aviation begin and end with PIC decision-making.

Even though we're still designing our airplane, my fiancee and I play a game of "What if X happens" to help keep each of us sharp. It also has helped out a lot in terms of laying out the cockpit of our experimental so that the "flow" for handling emergencies can be streamlined so you're not reaching all over the place to handle a problem when all the switches and knobs could be laid out in a more logical manner. There has also been quite a few cases where things have been added, removed or moved/modified in the design because of these mental exercises.

 

[nosehair]

James T. What a great question. Beyond basic aircraft control, the next most basic question is, What to do with it? That is the decision making process.

Most large flight schools don't address this learning skill at all. Be very careful of large flight schools, or anyone who promotes learning in the minimum time.

The problem is this "minimum time" thing.

The federal government established a "minimum flight time" for pilot training way back in a simple time when most of that time was devoted to simple aircraft control in normal and emergency situations, including CFI devised decision making scenarios.

But in the past 20 or 30m years, the airspace and aircraft environment has changed so much in air traffic control and technical decisions, yet the "minimum flight time" has not been increased, so most large flight schools have diminished to only teaching the flight test with no time for actually devising scenarios that teach, but are not tested, so they are dropped.

Find an experienced CFI who still believes learning to fly involves much more than being tested at the end.

Also, try to find an airport with little traffic and no tower- you make your own decisions.

 

[jspilot]

Thanks to everyone's comments in my "Interested" discussion thread.

I've been doing a lot of reading, especially on accidents (AOPA), and to me, it looks like the majority of accidents (fatal) have to deal with decision making. Some are due to mechanical failures, etc, but many of the results ring of pilot error or lack of making the RIGHT decision.

Do you guys/gals find this true also?

What's my point? I have not started training yet, but I already realize that being able to make the right situational decisions are key. Are the CFI's taught to throw a lot of decision making techniques at the trainee? To me, I want to be thrown into decision situations, in a controlled CFI environment, to help me make the right choice as often as possible. It sounds like you solo pretty early in the training, but is that the best thing to do?

Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I just want to make sure I have all the tools available to make this an enjoyable hobby.

Thanks! I'm an IT guy, so sometimes I over analyze things, so please bare with me!

James

You are definitely not overanalyzing things at all, in fact it seems like you may make a great pilot if you are already considering your personal limitations with regards to risk already before flight training.

Without a doubt, some of the most important decisions you'll make as a pilot are centered around minimizing risk, many of which will be made on the ground before taking off. I think aviation breeds a healthy respect for weather and maintenance, two important areas to consider to help minimize risk. At least for me, I feel much better about a flight after checking all weather reports and thouroughly checking the plane before a flight. It's really all I can do to mitigate the risks if flying, besides learning the emergency procedures.

With regards to your solo question, I'm sure you'll get many different oppinions but I was of the thought that I wanted to know as much as possible and know it well before soloing in case one of those emergencies happened while soloing. That just made sense to me but it seems like some people claim to solo in 10-15 hours a lot around here. It just seems like the CFI is gambling that nothing unusual will happen on their solo students flight if they are signing the student off that early. If you want to learn everything first before solo I'd imagine your CFI will respect that.

 

[LDJones]

It just seems like the CFI is gambling that nothing unusual will happen on their solo students flight if they are signing the student off that early. If you want to learn everything first before solo I'd imagine your CFI will respect that.

I don't rush my students to solo, but I don't hold them back until they know everything there is know in aviation.....I wouldn't be flying solo if that we're the case! I make sure they meet all the FAR requirements and, more importantly, that they can solo safely. Their safety is priority one...my ticket number two.

I think it is important to solo them as soon as they can safely do so as a confidence builder and to let them work on their newly acquired skills without having to pay me to sit and watch.

 

[jspilot]

I don't rush my students to solo, but I don't hold them back until they know everything there is know in aviation.....I wouldn't be flying solo if that we're the case! I make sure they meet all the FAR requirements and, more importantly, that they can solo safely. Their safety is priority one...my ticket number two.

I think it is important to solo them as soon as they can safely do so as a confidence builder and to let them work on their newly acquired skills without having to pay me to sit and watch.

That is a good point- at some point the CFI is just a passenger, that's what my CFI said was the true indicator that a student is ready to solo. I was just specficaly mentioning this point in the confinds of the original posters point with regards to risk.

If knowing everything about aviation was a requirement to solo I'd probably be at the discovery/intro flight level myself right now.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I've gone out on days that there was no chance we would fly.
My student called me from home and "wanted to go up", he was a low time guy. I drove out to the airfield, watched him pre-flight, runup, then asked if there was any traffic at the mountain range (a few miles from the runway), he says "man!.... I ... uh.... I cant see the range, probably shouldn't go flying huh?!" He didnt get to fly, but he sure as heck learned about not only getting a briefing before a flight, but looking out a window too :wink2:

I'm not sure that the program really means much -- as there are lots of less than ideal puppy mill instructors that would qualify for that in a hurry in extremely structured environments. It's unlikely I'll be signing off 10 applicants in a two year period anytime soon. I tend to be around 7 or 8, so far at 100% pass.

Uhh, not sure I would compare a gold seal to a puppy mill, one could also say that a puppy mill instructor will put on more hours and get their ATP sooner, does a ATP mean very little too??

I got mine, because I want to be the best I can be at my trade, if I qualify for a gold seal, I want it, if I dont, I want to get to the point where I do qualify for it.. and get it, if that makes sense.

Does the gold seal really do anything, nope, it shows more of the personality type of the CFI then the skill level, that being said, when I need a BFR I only will go with a ATP / Gold Seal CFI.

 

[jesse]

Uhh, not sure I would compare a gold seal to a puppy mill, one could also say that a puppy mill instructor will put on more hours and get their ATP sooner, does a ATP mean very little too??

I got mine, because I want to be the best I can be at my trade, if I qualify for a gold seal, I want it, if I dont, I want to get to the point where I do qualify for it.. and get it, if that makes sense.

Does the gold seal really do anything, nope, it shows more of the personality type of the CFI then the skill level, that being said, when I need a BFR I only will go with a ATP / Gold Seal CFI.

You misread what I wrote. There are certainly great instructors with a gold seal. There are also terrible instructors with a gold seal.

There is nothing about the requirements of being a gold seal instructor that means they are a good instructor therefore it's really a worthless metric for evaluating whether or not one should use a specific instructor.

Certainly I could sign 10 students off in two years and I could do it with a 100% pass rate. I could sign 20 off in a year if I really wanted to. Would that make me a better instructor then I am right now? Nope. In fact, it'd make me worse, because I wouldn't be able to give the students the level of service I can give them now.

 

[bobmrg]

While its not the most exciting book to read, the FAA's Risk Management Handbook contains some valuable insights, including a risk matrix: plug the particulars of your proposed flight into the matrix and see what the risk level is and how the risk can be minimized.

Bob Gardner

 

[NineThreeKilo]

You misread what I wrote. There are certainly great instructors with a gold seal. There are also terrible instructors with a gold seal.

There is nothing about the requirements of being a gold seal instructor that means they are a good instructor therefore it's really a worthless metric for evaluating whether or not one should use a specific instructor.

Certainly I could sign 10 students off in two years and I could do it with a 100% pass rate. I could sign 20 off in a year if I really wanted to. Would that make me a better instructor then I am right now? Nope. In fact, it'd make me worse, because I wouldn't be able to give the students the level of service I can give them now.

Understood.


It does show that they will work towards getting all the qualifications, ratings, badges, gold stars, etc for their craft.

That in itself may not speak for their abilities as a CFI, it does speak towards the amount of pride or professionalism they have in what they do.

IF the FAA had a platinum seal program, I'd bust my butt to swap my little gold circle for a platinum one.

Honestly, 10 students over 2 years isnt jack, 20 over 2 years isnt jack. I am a full time 208B pilot right now and instruct on the side, I am pacing to easily break the minimum numbers and pass rate before the next two years are up.

Unless I move out of the country I do not foresee myself ever renewing my CFI any other way then by my pass rate / number of students.

 

[jesse]

IHonestly, 10 students over 2 years isnt jack

Depends on what kind of instruction you do. You can do a hell of a lot of instruction that doesn't involve signing off a single person for a checkride.

I also wouldn't say 10 students over 2 years isn't jack. That's probably at least 500 hours of instruction.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Depends on what kind of instruction you do. You can do a hell of a lot of instruction that doesn't involve signing off a single person for a checkride.

Mainly Ab/initio PPL, I find it the most rewarding and I dont really like cleaning up other CFI's messes.

I also wouldn't say 10 students over 2 years isn't jack. That's probably at least 500 hours of instruction.

That's only 250hrs a year, or 20 hours a month. If you only fly 2hrs a day, 5 days a week (like my before or after work instruction) thats 500 hours in one year alone

 

[dwalt]

Refer to my signature line...I think it says it the best. IMO, being a safe pilot is about being prepared to handle any situation which might arise. Part of this preparedness often includes knowing when to say "no" - both in the air and on the ground. Just my .02.

 

[SteveinIndy]

Refer to my signature line...I think it says it the best. IMO, being a safe pilot is about being prepared to handle any situation which might arise. Part of this preparedness often includes knowing when to say "no" - both in the air and on the ground. Just my .02.

Do you mind if I use that the next time I give a presentation on safety?

 

[vxmine]

Good input, all.

I think I'm a pretty good decision maker most of the time, I am just making sure I absorb all the information I can before I take the controls myself.

Also, I'm a pretty controlled person. I would definitely not fly if the weather looks beyond my comfort zone and wouldn't mind getting stranded if the weather tells me to stay on the ground. I LOVE checklists and a plan of execution. I'm not a seat of the pants person (my wife hates this sometimes) because I always want to know what's 2 or 3 steps ahead. I don't usually get stressed in most situations. Hopefully, this helps aviation.

I use to ride street bikes (had a Buell 1125r) and race ATVs and although I am an adrenalin junky, I always had this little voice to keep me in check when I was close to the edge. I'm expecting that little voice to do the same here. One of the best riding tips someone helped me with was when entering a curve, keep your eyes and head at least 20-30 yrds ahead of your path. I couldn't imagine how this would help. Well, when you enter a curve at 50 mph, navigating the right path came easier because I already knew how to adjust to avoid obstacles or take the RIGHT action.

With that said, I'm not opposed to a 50-65 hr ppl track with CFI if it means I am better prepared to handle life or death situations.

Anyway, thanks for all the great input as always. I know it takes time from other things you're doing, but newbies like me really appreciate the hearing from others with more time in the seat.

James

 

[TheTraveler]

Great post, James, I can certainly relate, and as a student working on my PPL, I share the same concerns, and this actually helped me decide what kind of instructor I didn't want.

For example, it's not enough for the instructor to point out to me "Here is the "Thingy" gauge. If it falls below X or rises above Y, it's not correct, and you are in trouble." I want to know why would it do that, under what circumstances, what can I do to prevent it, and what are my options, dangers, and limits if it does happen for any reason.

I think being overly inquisitive about everything is a good skill to have here. There's nothing about a plane or flying that I just want the abridged version, or general details. Give it to me in full explanation no matter how detailed.

I even PM'd a few instructors on here and they gave me some great feedback and input (thank you, you know who you are!) in regards to my concerns which are very similar to yours.

It's really interesting that you brought up the decision making and crashes. I just had this conversation the other day with someone. I am amazed that I hear about fatal crashes when a plane loses power (engine failure, fuel, etc). I really don't yet understand...the aircraft is supposed to glide without power, and technically you are supposed to be able to land it without power. I made a conscious choice that I want to know as much as possible about controlling a plane without power so that in the event that this does happen, I will be prepared. (New thread on this anyone? I'd love to read it).

It also helps having relatives who are life long pilots, and can share experiences, stories, and give guidance. One of the greatest things that my grandfather ever told me...

"Learn from other pilots/peoples mistakes, because you're never going to live long enough to make them all yourself."

 

[Dr. O]

Yup, I made a decision today. I'm not going flying.
And what were the deep technical and regulatory reasons for that, you might ask.

Well, for one it is cold.
And two the ramp is covered with snow.
And three I don't feel like it.
Now tomorrow might be different.
So, that is how I go through the decision tree.

OK now. My best advice:
Read about flying - especially the crash reports by the FAA/DOT.
Think about flying.
Talk to other pilots.
Get good training.
Fly as much as you can afford.
And listen to your gut.
If you don't feel good about this flight, don't.

 

[nosehair]

I am amazed that I hear about fatal crashes when a plane loses power (engine failure, fuel, etc). I really don't yet understand...the aircraft is supposed to glide without power, and technically you are supposed to be able to land it without power. I made a conscious choice that I want to know as much as possible about controlling a plane without power so that in the event that this does happen, I will be prepared. (New thread on this anyone? I'd love to read it).

When I first started flying, I also wanted to be able to land it without power.
It seems like a natural survival skill in this profession, or sport, whatever is your pleasure. And in my day, engine failures were much more common, and were much more focused on during training and checkrides.

But as the years have brought about better engines, and flight training has evolved to more technically advanced systems, engine failure training has diminished.

You are right that any light airplane should be able to glide and land in a relatively short field, if the pilot has trained to do that. Trained well enough to make the process routine, so that fear and emotion do not interfere with practical decision making and a finely tuned skill when it really happens.

Most flight training in engine failures today terminates the final approach at 3-500 feet. It's this last few hundred feet when making those quick final decisions about slipping and use of flaps to arrive in the field at minimum speed for touchdown that is not being practiced.

Most pilots will arrive at the field too high and fast and that why that ball it up. They never practiced a simulated forced landing to touchdown.

In the old days we also routinely used the mixture knob or the fuel selector to shut off the engine for a more realistic feel for gliding with the prop stopped, and actual hands-on experience with engine stoppage, and restarting in the air.

As a natural course of learning to handle these balky machines, we learned how to handle and land without power. But even then, if you didn't keep practicing yourself after training, years go by, then Boom! it happens.

You probably won't find a CFI who will cut the mixture or fuel valve, and unless it's his or your airplane, the school/owner, and probably the insurance co. won't want that. They think it's dangerous, and it probably is, if the instructor is not experienced in the practice.

And you may have difficulty finding a CFI who will do engine cuts (throttle back to idle) on take-off in increments of 15, 25, 50, & 100 feet to a landing, and the infamous turn around back to the runway from about 500 feet or so.

But, if you can, these are the things that I have found make me totally secure in flying with no worries about engine failure: Engine cuts on T.O. at various critical low altitudes, and taking a high altitude practice forced landing down to touch-down, or at least into the flare to see you actually could do it.

The only thing not in my control is the landing terrain -even there I have choices, but in any event, I can fly the airplane into a stall with a nosehigh touchdown into the best spot available.

These days, engine failure is so rare, that most folks don't give it the time it deserves, but to me, the training is valuable across the board. Basic fundamental skills.

 

[wabower]

QUOTE=denverpilot;1055451]Formally taught to create scenarios, no. The CFI curriculum and requirements are public, you can read them.

Most CFIs have to build scenarios from things they have either experienced themselves, have done their homework reading accident reports on, or have learned from other aviators

.
Isn't a very high percentage of all instruction done in this manner?

Solo is done in a VERY controlled environment. It's debatable as to its value by some, but for most people it's a confidence builder. Lots of the Primary training is building confidence, then breaking it by tossing some more difficult things at the student, then building it up again, then breaking it. Culmination is a checkride where you're deemed able to safely carry other human lives aloft.

If this is the reason why you quit the first time I can understand why you chose to adios. If at some point you seek to complete CFI training, you'll find that nothing is further from the truth. Nothing that occurs during training should cause a student to lose confidence, but only to accept each new event as the result of earning the right to continue based on their success with their accomplishments to date. An instructor should know when a student is ready to move on, and only then should he do so.

Students should know (and most already do) that their initial attempts at new maneuvers or procedures won't be all that great, and instead should be reminded (if necessary) that everybody struggles with new stuff until they get the hang of it. And the instructor shouldn't hesitate to remind them that all the stuff they are now doing well was problematic when they first started doing it.

Training and learning do not end at the ticket.

Well, maybe in theory. Unfortunately, in practice it doesn't work that way. The combination of cost, desire and regulations works against many new PPL's gaining any meaningful experience or training after obtaining the rating. The number of PPL's that show up for their first FR after 24 months with very little logged time since their check ride is eye-opening at best.

Since you're an IT guy, you're REALLY not going to like it when you run into a "well-respected" instructor on the airport who has his FAR knowledge of a particular topic completely wrong, and won't even let you show them in the regs on paper. I promise, you'll eventually run into that guy. That guy ****es me off more than anything.

Reeallly? Which regs infuriate you the most?

What's fun is asking an unsuspecting CFI why they haven't obtained it. Then shut up and listen and watch closely. I know GREAT CFIs who gave good solid reasons and mediocre CFIs who came up with all SORTS of interesting excuses, or who'd never heard of the program.

What's so hard about that question? "Bigger fish to fry" is all that needs saying. There are lots of pieces of paper I could hang on my wall or initials I could print on my business card or credentials I could list on aviation Internet forums if they were important to doing the job or staying as busy as I want to stay or improving my self-esteem or any number of other reasons. So far, none of them have seemed compelling.

That program is the closest you'll get to any official CFI rating system.[/QUOTE]

It's certainly a good start. Also worth noting that many of the CFI's who taught them most of what they know weren't members of the club.

 

[Henning]

Good input, all.

I think I'm a pretty good decision maker most of the time, I am just making sure I absorb all the information I can before I take the controls myself.

Also, I'm a pretty controlled person. I would definitely not fly if the weather looks beyond my comfort zone and wouldn't mind getting stranded if the weather tells me to stay on the ground. I LOVE checklists and a plan of execution. I'm not a seat of the pants person (my wife hates this sometimes) because I always want to know what's 2 or 3 steps ahead. I don't usually get stressed in most situations. Hopefully, this helps aviation.

I use to ride street bikes (had a Buell 1125r) and race ATVs and although I am an adrenalin junky, I always had this little voice to keep me in check when I was close to the edge. I'm expecting that little voice to do the same here. One of the best riding tips someone helped me with was when entering a curve, keep your eyes and head at least 20-30 yrds ahead of your path. I couldn't imagine how this would help. Well, when you enter a curve at 50 mph, navigating the right path came easier because I already knew how to adjust to avoid obstacles or take the RIGHT action.

With that said, I'm not opposed to a 50-65 hr ppl track with CFI if it means I am better prepared to handle life or death situations.

Anyway, thanks for all the great input as always. I know it takes time from other things you're doing, but newbies like me really appreciate the hearing from others with more time in the seat.

James

You won't know if you're ready until you are looking at dying. It's not some thing you can train. What you can train is how to avoid being there.

 

[TheTraveler]

You won't know if you're ready until you are looking at dying. It's not some thing you can train. What you can train is how to avoid being there.

Nice, Henning! Better write that one down. I may even use it now and then, I'll be happy to give you credit.

 

[TheTraveler]

...

I started a new thread specifically about this. Do you want to copy/paste over there? I think it would be a good addition if you're up to it.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1056682#post1056682

 

[david0tey]

Thanks to everyone's comments in my "Interested" discussion thread.

I've been doing a lot of reading, especially on accidents (AOPA), and to me, it looks like the majority of accidents (fatal) have to deal with decision making. Some are due to mechanical failures, etc, but many of the results ring of pilot error or lack of making the RIGHT decision.

Do you guys/gals find this true also?

What's my point? I have not started training yet, but I already realize that being able to make the right situational decisions are key. Are the CFI's taught to throw a lot of decision making techniques at the trainee? To me, I want to be thrown into decision situations, in a controlled CFI environment, to help me make the right choice as often as possible. It sounds like you solo pretty early in the training, but is that the best thing to do?

Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I just want to make sure I have all the tools available to make this an enjoyable hobby.

Thanks! I'm an IT guy, so sometimes I over analyze things, so please bare with me!

James

A good CFI will emphasize emergency procedures and the what-ifs. One thing I have been doing recently that has made me much more comfortable is planning out my emergency options before I take off. If I am planning a cross country flight, I will look at both airports on Google Earth and look for any emergency landing options at the end of all runways. It really puts your mind at ease knowing beforehand what your plan is if the worst were to happen.

 

[1600vw]

A good CFI will emphasize emergency procedures and the what-ifs. One thing I have been doing recently that has made me much more comfortable is planning out my emergency options before I take off. If I am planning a cross country flight, I will look at both airports on Google Earth and look for any emergency landing options at the end of all runways. It really puts your mind at ease knowing beforehand what your plan is if the worst were to happen.

Last year I went to one of those saftey seminars I can not remember who put it on. But they where talking about runoff on runways and what is on the sectional.

Then they gave examples of runways that the sectional said had such and such runoff but in fact over the years those runoffs have either become a lot smaller or are gone completely.

I do not use a GPS so not sure what is shown on one of them but if you are using the old school sectional I just thought I would share this info.

Myself this was all above my type of flying but I just can not get enough of aviation and like to hear all I can about it. Someday I might just use some of this info.

H.A.S.

 

[wabower]

It's not necessary to go that far to get a good feel for your reactions to emergencies or unplanned events. As an instructor, the first thing(s) I evaluate are how well the pilot has been trained and then whether he/she actually uses the training to solve the problem at hand. A side-pouch full of emer/abnormal checklists doesn't help much if the pilot is incapable of locating and using them when the chips are down.

If the pilot finds him/herself in a hole, the obvious question is who dug it and how to get out of it as quickly and gracefully as possible. If an airplane problem caused of the hole, diagnosing the problem and knowing the memory items on the appropriate check lists are good first steps. If those don't work, understanding the other potential causes of the problem becomes a priority, and the pilot's in-depth understanding of the interactions of the various systems is put to the test. If those don't work, the pilot is down to the three fundamental decisions that frame most such situations:
1. Land immediately
2. Land at the nearest suitable airport
3. Continue to destination or other airport

If the pilot or some other agency dug the hole, the prepared materials and procedures may help resolve the problem, but we read accident reports almost every day that prove the pilot faced more questions than he had answers.

The check lists for many pilot-induced problems (fuel exhaustion, buzzing, low-level maneuvers, stall-spin, VFR into IMC, CFIT, flying while drunk or impaired, high DA, convective, icing, etc.) all contain only one check list item "Don't do that damn-fool stuff." But if you decide to do it anyway, having the escape route in mind should be a high priority in which you have ultimate confidence because the stakes will be high and ain't nobody else gonna ride in to rescue your stupid butt when you do it.

You won't know if you're ready until you are looking at dying. It's not some thing you can train. What you can train is how to avoid being there.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm not sure that the program really means much -- as there are lots of less than ideal puppy mill instructors that would qualify for that in a hurry in extremely structured environments. It's unlikely I'll be signing off 10 applicants in a two year period anytime soon. I tend to be around 7 or 8, so far at 100% pass.

You found the logic problem with the Good Seal program I mentioned. I was going to leave it as homework for the OP.

Low volume, high quality CFIs are inappropriately penalized.

As far as Murphy's measure of how busy a CFI is, I don't completely trust that one for the same reason.

 

[denverpilot]

Stupid autocorrect. Gold not Good.

 

[MAKG1]

My big gripe about primary training engine-outs was the power-off 180.

Just how many engine failures will occur exactly abeam the numbers at TPA?

It's a bad example (IMO) of teaching to the test.

 

[nosehair]

My big gripe about primary training engine-outs was the power-off 180.

Just how many engine failures will occur exactly abeam the numbers at TPA?

It's a bad example (IMO) of teaching to the test.

The purpose is not to practice for an engine failure at exactly that point, but to develop the skill of getting from that point to the runway.

Generally, if you have that skill, you should also be able to maneuver to any available spot in front or to the side, but more specifically, combining the gliding spiral, you should be able to glide from altitude down to a spot abeam the field you are circling and get into this comfortable "abeam" position which will put you in a much more familiar position to continue with the 'ol 180' that you have become so skilled at.

 

[dwalt]

Do you mind if I use that the next time I give a presentation on safety?

Not in the least...I'll just PM you my address to send the royalty checks

 

[NineThreeKilo]

What's so hard about that question? "Bigger fish to fry" is all that needs saying.

Meh, that's a lame excuse, someone said that to me I'd just smile and walk away.

If you have bigger fish to fry other then becoming a more qualified instructor, perhaps you dont have enough time to teach and shouldn't be instructing.


Now if you said I haven't recommended enough students to qualify for the gold seal, that would be ok, you might not win my business, but I'll respect you and listen to what you have to say.