Death of the Corvette

[DaleB]

Sounds like people like us need to go for test drives and say “Yeah, this auto sucks as much as I thought it would. Sorry, not buying one until Detroit comes out with a manual.”

You seem to assume the auto will actually suck.

I can definitely understand that being a possibility (exotic guys giving Corvette a look). I just don’t know that the bread n butter Corvette demographic will feel the same. Time will tell, but I think they could have earned the interest of guys like you by making the C8 a new model without using the Corvette namesake.

So, what -- have two competing niche-market cars trying to cannibalize each others' sales? I think GM figured that whole thing out when they pulled the plug on Pontiac and Olds, just like Ford finally figured out Mercury had outlived its usefulness.

Given that only 15% of Corvette buyers opted for the manual, I think they're figuring they'll keep over 85% of their current audience, and maybe pick up some new converts. I think they're right. Of course I really don't care much -- it's a segment of the market in which I have little interest. I'm only 58, I'm not old enough for a 'Vette.

 

[Ted]

You seem to assume the auto will actually suck.

Even if it’s a good auto, it’s still an auto. I’ve driven DSG gearboxes before and they’re still autos.

Not for me.

 

[DaleB]

Even if it’s a good auto, it’s still an auto. I’ve driven DSG gearboxes before and they’re still autos.

Not for me.

So... whether it actually sucks or not, the simple fact that it lacks of a clutch pedal makes it a no-go for you.

I'm not being argumentative, here, I'm just curious. Let's say you have two identical cars, one with a clutch and floor shifter; the other has a modern DSG or PDK or whatever non-manual transmission you want. You drive both. The non-cluth-and-floor-shift car out-perform better in the quarter mile and on a road course, handily beating the cat you like better.

Does is still suck?

In other words, is this a technical objection, or just a spiritual one?

 

[Fiveslide]

So... whether it actually sucks or not, the simple fact that it lacks of a clutch pedal makes it a no-go for you.

I'm not being argumentative, here, I'm just curious. Let's say you have two identical cars, one with a clutch and floor shifter; the other has a modern DSG or PDK or whatever non-manual transmission you want. You drive both. The non-cluth-and-floor-shift car out-perform better in the quarter mile and on a road course, handily beating the cat you like better.

Does is still suck?

In other words, is this a technical objection, or just a spiritual one?

I thought @Ted DuPuis already said he didn't care if a MT was slower than an auto? That pedal, stick and shift pattern is one more connection to the driving experience we long for, that's where we come from.

 

[DaleB]

I thought @Ted DuPuis already said he didn't care if a MT was slower than an auto? That pedal, stick and shift pattern is one more connection to the driving experience we long for, that's where we come from.

OK, I may have missed it as I've really only half-followed the thread. Personally, I go for whatever gets the job done the best way possible. My DD was a stick for a few years when I was still commuting... Mustang or not, it got really old after a while. I don't really miss the clutch and shifter since the demise (in most cars at least) of the slush-box auto.

 

[Fiveslide]

OK, I may have missed it as I've really only half-followed the thread. Personally, I go for whatever gets the job done the best way possible. My DD was a stick for a few years when I was still commuting... Mustang or not, it got really old after a while. I don't really miss the clutch and shifter since the demise (in most cars at least) of the slush-box auto.

I love my 7 speed shiftable automatic in my Titan for towing and daily driving. I loved my 13 speed manual in my Freightliner classic xl for towing.

I will, hopefully soon, own another Mustang GT with a stick. I dated a girl that had a GT with the 4spd auto and it was both fast and boring, if you can imagine that.

 

[Ted]

In other words, is this a technical objection, or just a spiritual one?

Spiritual, 100%, and I’ve never meant to imply otherwise.

Same with my Ram. Technically speaking either of the two automatic options are better. I bought the manual, and glad I did.

 

[DaleB]

Spiritual, 100%, and I’ve never meant to imply otherwise.

I gotcha. Ain't no fixin' that.

So now I'll shut up, before THIS thread gets locked too. : rolls eyes ::

 

[UngaWunga]

Even if it’s a good auto, it’s still an auto. I’ve driven DSG gearboxes before and they’re still autos.

Not for me.

Automatics on street cars turn them into appliances. You're not going for lap times on the street. Removing another interaction with the mechanism of the vehicle further removes the need to learn a skill to do something well.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

On the topic of Corvettes with auto, the original 1953 was only available with a two-speed automatic and only in one color. "Polo white and Powerglide only."

 

[Ted]

I gotcha. Ain't no fixin' that.

To me if someone is buying a Corvette as a street car (which most customers do) for non-spiritual reasons, they're missing the point.


Life’s about more than numbers.

 

[SoonerAviator]

You seem to assume the auto will actually suck.

So, what -- have two competing niche-market cars trying to cannibalize each others' sales? I think GM figured that whole thing out when they pulled the plug on Pontiac and Olds, just like Ford finally figured out Mercury had outlived its usefulness.

Given that only 15% of Corvette buyers opted for the manual, I think they're figuring they'll keep over 85% of their current audience, and maybe pick up some new converts. I think they're right. Of course I really don't care much -- it's a segment of the market in which I have little interest. I'm only 58, I'm not old enough for a 'Vette.

Ford makes the Mustang GT350 and the Ford GT. Porsche makes the 911 and the 918 Spyder. Several auto makers had a high end sports car and a borderline super car. It’s possible to coexist. Albeit the line between the C7 and the C8 may be thinner in terms of performance advantage, at least initially. The Pontiac/Chevy was producing the same car with different badges on it, which doesn’t correlate well to this scenario.

As mentioned several times by multiple people in this thread, having the manual as an option has nothing to do with trying to eek out those tenths of a second on the track. It’s about a spiritual connection to the sports car, which many don’t care about, but for some is a requirement in a sports car. YMMV

 

[GRG55]

Automatics on street cars turn them into appliances. You're not going for lap times on the street. Removing another interaction with the mechanism of the vehicle further removes the need to learn a skill to do something well...

Didn't we start losing "interaction with the mechanism of the vehicle" with the introduction of the electric starter then?

 

[RudyP]

Didn't we start losing "interaction with the mechanism of the vehicle" with the introduction of the electric starter then?

It’s all degrees of connection. And those of us arguing for the spiritual connection to the car that you get with 3 pedals and an H pattern shifter are in no way making a technical argument. It’s ridiculous to try to corner us with one.

It’s about as productive as trying to convince someone who loves poetry that technical prose is more efficient. Or someone who flies a radial engine taildragger that Southwest is better at getting from point A to point B.

 

[DaleB]

Then why in God’s name would you drive something that doesn’t need the points adjusted and the timing set regularly?

Sorry... late night, a little Firefly in my tea, just poking the bear a little. Probably shouldn’t **** off the tiny little crowd of people who might not flip me **** for building a wooden airplane.

 

[RudyP]

Then why in God’s name would you drive something that doesn’t need the points adjusted and the timing set regularly?

Some of us do! And very much enjoy it even though the same money could buy the latest, fastest, most technically advanced sports car available. Have you seen the prices on Ferrari 250 GTOs? You could buy 150 Ferrari 488s which are massively faster for the price of one 250 GTO.

Sorry... late night, a little Firefly in my tea, just poking the bear a little. Probably shouldn’t **** off the tiny little crowd of people who might not flip me **** for building a wooden airplane.

And yeah, that!

 

[IK04]

Since my DSG equipped car grenaded its dual-mass flywheel ( a terrible compromise device), I am converting the car to a conventional six-speed manual.

Yeah, I'll hate all the shifting and clutch work in slow traffic, but I spent the first 15 years of driving without an automatic. No biggie...

 

[tspear]

It’s all degrees of connection. And those of us arguing for the spiritual connection to the car that you get with 3 pedals and an H pattern shifter are in no way making a technical argument. It’s ridiculous to try to corner us with one.

It’s about as productive as trying to convince someone who loves poetry that technical prose is more efficient. Or someone who flies a radial engine taildragger that Southwest is better at getting from point A to point B.

Now I am curious. What is the connection? With the C8, you have paddle shifters. How is the paddle shifter any different than the H gear shift?
You still get the engine feel, and noise. The only thing I see you losing is use of your left foot; which for me has never been much of a tactile feel. I depends on how the engine sounds.

Tim

 

[steingar]

Now I am curious. What is the connection? With the C8, you have paddle shifters. How is the paddle shifter any different than the H gear shift?
You still get the engine feel, and noise. The only thing I see you losing is use of your left foot; which for me has never been much of a tactile feel. I depends on how the engine sounds.

Tim

With a clutch you can manage power with tremendous precision. Paddle shifters just don't scratch that itch. I doubt there are many supercars left that use manual transmission. Humans have a hard time managing the power levels in these cars today. Different for the cars of yesteryear.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Now I am curious. What is the connection? With the C8, you have paddle shifters. How is the paddle shifter any different than the H gear shift?
You still get the engine feel, and noise. The only thing I see you losing is use of your left foot; which for me has never been much of a tactile feel. I depends on how the engine sounds.

Tim

With a clutch you can manage power with tremendous precision. Paddle shifters just don't scratch that itch. I doubt there are many supercars left that use manual transmission. Humans have a hard time managing the power levels in these cars today. Different for the cars of yesteryear.

Yes. For example you’ve got the ability to immediately remove power without adding engine braking, and gently ease it back in later.

I don’t know about others, but I spend much more of my driving time picking my way through the back road twisties at subsonic velocities vs. banging through a DSG craving another 0.01 seconds off my previous 0-60 best time.

Chevrolet long ago internally saw a direct link between sales $$ and published acceleration times. They have encouraged engineering teams by increasing their project funding if the team proposed solutions that reduce times further. That’s one reason they’ve gone from malaise cars to what is offered today.

The investment in making the C8 changes were huge. I guess some things had to go to fund it.

 

[Ted]

Didn't we start losing "interaction with the mechanism of the vehicle" with the introduction of the electric starter then?

I think this misses the point, since starting is a small and abbreviated part of operation of a vehicle, if you want to call it that. You've got vehicles in the early days where you had to crank by hand, control the spark advance by hand, and manual shifting. On the polar opposite end of the spectrum is a car that will fully autonomously take you from point A to point B with nothing more than you inputting the destination.

By the time we get to the latter, we've lost all connection with driving completely. But I think most will agree that there's not a huge spiritual benefit to be had by hand cranking your vehicle. Even I will admit that the pony motor on my Cat D4 is kinda a pain and doesn't really add meaningfully to the experience.

In between is some level where those who love driving find the correct amount of connection to make the drive fun. You have some purists for whom that needs to go all the way to a carburetor, distributor, manual steering, manual brakes, manual transmission. We'll see if I change my mind once I start driving the Cobra, but I don't mind power steering and power brakes (the Cobra will have neither), but I do mind a manual transmission. Ultimately the act of steering and braking is the same, and so long as there is good steering and pedal feel, I'm fine. But you can't make an automatic transmission a manual. You can do the "paddle shifter" or whatever, but your left foot still no longer has something to do and you lose the ability to have any impact on the clutch engagement and disengagement, or the feeling of moving the shift forks and sliders to disengage one gear and engage the next.

That's one of the things I like about riding motorcycles, too. Your whole body is part of the experience, moreso than in any car, but a manual transmission gets you closer.

 

[zaitcev]

I thought @Ted DuPuis already said he didn't care if a MT was slower than an auto? That pedal, stick and shift pattern is one more connection to the driving experience we long for, that's where we come from.

If the connectedness for the driver is the objective, they make a car for him then, it's called Ariel Atom. I just don't quite see why Corvette ended in the same category.

 

[Ted]

Then why in God’s name would you drive something that doesn’t need the points adjusted and the timing set regularly?

That's about the maintenance aspect, not about the driving aspect. And keep in mind some people specifically enjoy owning a car with Weber carbs because they love tinkering with them. Those same folks also love points, same reason. One friend of mine has an old Porsche 911 with Webers, the old ones that require even more maintenance than the newer style DCOEs. He loves the maintenance aspect of it. He also loves the driving.

I love turning wrenches, but I actually enjoy the maintenance aspect less - I prefer upgrades. I like to make something the way I want it and have it just last, not have to keep on fiddling with it to make it keep doing that same thing. I want my wrenching to focus on making changes to how the car behaves.

Now I am curious. What is the connection? With the C8, you have paddle shifters. How is the paddle shifter any different than the H gear shift?
You still get the engine feel, and noise. The only thing I see you losing is use of your left foot; which for me has never been much of a tactile feel. I depends on how the engine sounds.

With a paddle shifter you just push a button and the gear changes (more or less). The computer is doing all the work. With a physical shifter and a clutch you actually are releasing the engagement between the engine and transmission, physically moving the parts to change gears, you have to let off of the gas and get back on. A good shift is very rewarding.

 

[Fiveslide]

If the connectedness for the driver is the objective, they make a car for him then, it's called Ariel Atom. I just don't quite see why Corvette ended in the same category.

I'd definitely buy one of those before a Corvette of any era. However, my finances limit me to 15 year old mustangs and bolt on performance mods. Ted, obviously, has more purchasing power than I do, he picked/built a car to suit his style.

The mustang will always hold a place in my heart. The 95's were just hitting the used market when I got my license and it was my dream car that could be a reality. I finally got my hands on one.

I know the mustang. How make it faster and handle better on a budget, which is still the major factor in any vehicle I purchase. How to drive it, drift it, push its limits. That's why I will go back.

 

[Ted]

I know the mustang. How make it faster and handle better on a budget, which is still the major factor in any vehicle I purchase. How to drive it, drift it, push its limits. That's why I will go back.

That’s how I am with V12 Jaguars, but that’s exactly why I don’t really want to go back. BTDT, learning something new makes me interested in something different.

 

[Fiveslide]

That’s how I am with V12 Jaguars, but that’s exactly why I don’t really want to go back. BTDT, learning something new makes me interested in something different.

If budget wasn't a factor, I'd expand my horizons, too. I don't have money to drop into a car to experiment with springs and heads and exhaust and such. I know I can make quick, make grip and make it sound good the first time around.

 

[Zeldman]

This thread amuses me, I enjoy the bantering between which is best, the automatic or bolt action transmission...

All my race cars had automatic transmissions. Granted, they were all highly modified 2 speed power glides and most did not have a torque converter, but still they all started life as an automatic. The dragster had a torque converter but nothing like anything driven on the street would have.

The speedway car had a 4 speed. But I did see a few speedway cars with automatic transmissions. And it seemed the only teams running an automatic were under funded teams (just underfunded, not way underfunded like me) and had other problems than the transmission.

The biggest problem with an auto on the speedway was heat. The fluid could overheat and then start over flowing onto the track. And believe me, oil under the rear tires at 150-160 can be a real problem.

My pickup, GMC Duramax with the Allison transmission, is a real pleasure to drive empty or loaded. The Allison is never in the wrong gear, up or down shifting and is always in the right RPM range. Plus with the added after market exhaust brake coming to a stop I hardly feel the 5th wheel behind me. I debated with myself on whether I should get the Allison or 6 speed, and I am glad I went with the automatic. I had always been a stick guy before. Plus I love the sound of the turbo with the 4 inch exhaust and 36 inch long glass pack.

My dream car is a '68 or '69 SS Chevelle, 396 and 4 speed, convertible. If I ever get one I will up date it to a 5 speed. Now by todays standards the Chevelle has poor handling characteristics and the seating comfort is lacking, but it is 50 years old and is my dream car. And I will keep it carbureted. Possibly multi carbureted for the cool factor and because I can work on multi carbs.

A friend of mine has a '66 Nova Wagon with a mechanical fuel injected 327. Not original engine. When the weather changes he has to adjust the air/fuel mixture. If on a long drive and the altitude changes he has to pull over and adjust the fuel/air mixture. Sure, he could have put the latest computer controlled engine in it and never open the hood again, but to him the fun part is having to and knowing how to adjust the fuel injection, and having to keep up with the maintenance of driving an older car.

To me the coolness is not which transmission a vehicle has. I have done both and both have advantages and dis-advantages in different vehicles. I learned to drive tractors and forklifts before I ever got into a car, so sticks were normal to me. Yet at this time I do not own anything with a stick. However the Subaru has those paddle shifters.....

If given a choice between the newest Corvette and a '65 396 powered Corvette, I'll take the old one everytime.!!

 

[Ted]

To me the coolness is not which transmission a vehicle has. I have done both and both have advantages and dis-advantages in different vehicles. I learned to drive tractors and forklifts before I ever got into a car, so sticks were normal to me. Yet at this time I do not own anything with a stick. However the Subaru has those paddle shifters.....

I think something to keep in mind is I'm less talking about perceived "cool factor" and "manliness" (although in some cases I may complain about that). My problem is the lack of the option for people like me.

My understanding is you were building a lot of drag racers, in which case I'd completely understand and agree that the automatic makes sense and is the right tool for the job, just as I've agreed the various automatics/DSGs make more sense if you're racing one of these cars at LeMans or the like.

 

[DaleB]

A friend of mine has a '66 Nova Wagon with a mechanical fuel injected 327. Not original engine. When the weather changes he has to adjust the air/fuel mixture. If on a long drive and the altitude changes he has to pull over and adjust the fuel/air mixture. Sure, he could have put the latest computer controlled engine in it and never open the hood again, but to him the fun part is having to and knowing how to adjust the fuel injection, and having to keep up with the maintenance of driving an older car.

To each their own. To me, the fun part would be knowing that I used to have to stop and adjust the mixture all the time -- but I figured out a way to make driving less of a pain in the ass.

 

[Zeldman]

My understanding is you were building a lot of drag racers, in which case I'd completely understand and agree that the automatic makes sense and is the right tool for the job, just as I've agreed the various automatics/DSGs make more sense if you're racing one of these cars at LeMans or the like.

Actually I only went drag racing one summer. A fuel customer was expecting a baby soon and needed to sell his front motor dragster. It was an impulse buy. Fun for a few seconds at a time. The first motor I had in it came out of a dirt car and still had mud on it at the first race I was in...

Everything else was left turn racing.

I wasn't sure about your choice with the efi Weber style induction. Now I am really interested to see how it works and how you like it, and if it has that cool sound.

 

[Ted]

I wasn't sure about your choice with the efi Weber style induction. Now I am really interested to see how it works and how you like it, and if it has that cool sound.

It’s worth noting that I’m not even sure about a lot of my decisions on the Cobra, I’m picking a lot of them because I want to experiment and see the results for myself.

 

[RudyP]

Now I am curious. What is the connection? With the C8, you have paddle shifters. How is the paddle shifter any different than the H gear shift?
You still get the engine feel, and noise. The only thing I see you losing is use of your left foot; which for me has never been much of a tactile feel. I depends on how the engine sounds.

Tim

Ha!

I guess we don't see things the same way because I just can't see how paddle shifters could be any more different than an H pattern shifter and a clutch pedal. To me that's like comparing playing Tennis to playing Wii Tennis... Not remotely the same experience...

I have a car with one of the most highly praised dual clutch flappy paddle transmissions that can execute perfectly matched throttle blipped shifts in milliseconds (a Porsche PDK) and I dislike it just as much as an old 3 speed torque converter Buick auto from the 70s. Like I said earlier in the thread, my objection with automatics has never been about how fast they shift or how technically advanced they are but rather that they automate (and therefore take away from me) one of the parts of the driving experience that I genuinely value. I can't really explain it any more than that and I totally understand (and respect) people who just don't value that part of the experience the way I do but for me it is important.

 

[Ted]

@RudyP I like the cut of your jib, sir. We should go driving sometime.

 

[tspear]

@RudyP

lmao, I was being argumentative and trying to get someone to articulate why. Oh well.
For some cars, manual is just more fun to drive. The problem is that car performance has passed what can be maximized with manual shifting.

Tim

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

@RudyP

lmao, I was being argumentative and trying to get someone to articulate why. Oh well.
For some cars, manual is just more fun to drive. The problem is that car performance has passed what can be maximized with manual shifting.

Tim

Again, though, what percentage of driving time is truly “maximum performance acceleration” time in these cars, and can a driver truly measure or appreciate the slight reduction in acceleration time by the seat of their pants?

Still in the manual tranny corner for the other 99.9% of drive time.

 

[kgruber]

I drove my 2001 Z06 for 110,000 miles, and it was a thrill. But I get equal, but different kind of pleasure driving my 2004 Z51 automatic roadster.

 

[IK04]

Sadly, if you mention all the "heel and toe" fun you've had, the poor bastidges will think you were tap dancing...

 

[kgruber]

Let alone "double clutching!!" I am so duck foot, that I "heel toe" backwards. Heel on brake, toe on gas. Couldn't POSSIBLY do it the other way.

 

[Fiveslide]

Imagine this, long ago they killed the Corvette and instead let the Chevette live. Where would we be?

 

[SoonerAviator]

Imagine this, long ago they killed the Corvette and instead let the Chevette live. Where would we be?

Still in 1983 my friend.