Dealing with unaddressed squawks in rentals

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uncreative

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Uncreative
The last few times I've rented planes from my flight school, the planes have had previously squawked issues that either MX was performed and the issue still persists, or just haven't been addressed at all. Obviously these aren't airworthy items, but things like a tach that bounces at operating rpm, a secondary radio display that doesn't work, etc.

As a renter, I expect the aircraft to be 100%, not merely airworthy. Is this unreasonable? I am going to have a chat with the manager of the school to express my concerns, but I'm just looking to get a read on this as I sometimes get wrapped around the axle on issues that aren't that big of a deal.
 
There's no such thing as 100%. Added MX = higher rental costs. Depends on how much more you want to pay to make it closer to 100%.
 
You can also walk. Simply say the plane is not in a condition you want to fly it in. Let you know when it is fixed. The plane I rent is used very little and it is in really good condition for a plane with the hours it has on it. It has been well maintained. I walked away once when the nosewheel was just too worn for my liking and it was fixed later that day. My guess is at a big busy place they are not going to worry too much about one persons gripes.
 
Bouncing tach? I'd get right on that... :rofl:



Do you know how many tens of thousands of dollars are spent just replacing displays that have a single segment of one digit or lamp failed on ___________ radios/annunciator/coffee machine/entertainment center/switch panel in jets?
 
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It all depends on the squawk. If it's an airworthiness issue, don't rent it. Sometimes it's a light that's required for night flight, but isn't necessary for day VFR - they'll fix it when they get to it, knowing they won't be losing much, if any, rental revenue.

If it's not an airworthiness issue, how much of an inconvenience is it?

Is it just one or two? Or is there a whole list that makes you wonder about what hasn't been found?

I expect there will always be something, there always is. I've rented at places that let them accumulate until they fix them all at once, and I've rented at places that get to them right away.
 
It all depends. If the door won't lock, I don't care much. Same deal with a stain on the floor or a hole in the upholstery. If the ADF is toast, I don't care. If the DME or one nav radio is not working, I care a bit, but I'll find an alternative method of navigation.

If the fuel selector smells, that's getting dealt with before I fly it.

For IFR, I've "urgently" squawked a fibrilating clock (14 CFR 91.205(d)(6)), even though I don't use it. It sucks having to cancel a flight for that. I've also pulled in the local mechanic by the hand when the flaps wouldn't extend to full (turned out to be a loose wire in the switch, fixed on the spot -- it was the mechanic's plane).
 
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bnt83 said:
No kidding.

Its not the squawks I see in the cockpit that concern me, its the ones that I can't see without massive dissassembly :yikes:
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Agreed. What's hiding behind the fold that isn't being repaired because the owner's not being "compensated" enough. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

You're paying money to rent that aircraft at the price they set, not you. Just like any rental car, it had better be in tip top shape, or I'd happily take my compensation to someone who manages their aircraft better. Like others said, if you don't feel the aircraft is being maintained well enough for what you pay to rent it, then take your hard earned money elsewhere.
 
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uncreative said:
The last few times I've rented planes from my flight school, the planes have had previously squawked issues that either MX was performed and the issue still persists, or just haven't been addressed at all. Obviously these aren't airworthy items, but things like a tach that bounces at operating rpm, a secondary radio display that doesn't work, etc.

As a renter, I expect the aircraft to be 100%, not merely airworthy. Is this unreasonable? I am going to have a chat with the manager of the school to express my concerns, but I'm just looking to get a read on this as I sometimes get wrapped around the axle on issues that aren't that big of a deal.
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Archammer said:
Agreed. What's hiding behind the fold that isn't being repaired because the owner's not being "compensated" enough. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

I'm paying money to rent that aircraft at the price you set, not me. Just like any rental car, it had better be in tip top shape, or you better have a good tow truck with wings on it.
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I can relate to these desires, but quite frankly, when you're renting 40 year old aircraft expecting them to be 100% isn't realistic. You've got planes that are getting an annual inspection done *EVERY MONTH* and as a result from a pure airworthiness perspective are probably in better shape than many of the private hangar queens.

If I have a backlight on the Nav 2 radio of one of our rental aircraft go out, what exactly am I supposed to do about that? Cancel the next 10 flights that are occurring today and tomorrow so I can get it fixed when none of those flights will actually need that radio?

It's always a fine balance between keeping the overall aircraft quality up, while also keeping the availability as close to 100% as you can, and busting your ass to make sure you don't cancel any scheduled flights, ever.

I can keep a 40 year old airplane that is in the air 100 hours a month in pretty damn good shape but there is absolutely no way I can keep it 100% unless I'm OK with canceling flights for artificial reasons which is a much bigger business problem.

Also keep in mind that flight training, not renting to certificated pilots, is where the money is really made in aircraft rental (at least around here). In one 100 hour cycle probably 90 of those hours will be private pilot training and the remainder will be the certificated pilot that rents for the hamburger run every couple months. As a result of that very fact, I have to prioritize my decisions to be in the best interest of those students, and those students aren't going to want me to take an airplane down and cancel their flights because a backlight is out or the tach is jumping a bit.
 
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And sometimes no one can figure out what's causing a certain problem...
 
Seems pretty clear that holding GA rental aircraft to the same standard as say, renting a tractor is unreasonable. I'll take a few deep breaths and just worry about safety issues, even though the principle of paying for something and getting less bugs me.
 
Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Have a talk with the owner and express your concerns.
 
There's a difference between airworthy, safe, and perfect. I don't expect perfection from a 40 year old rental, but I do expect safe and airworthy. I've had the digits on a #2 radio be unreadable, I simply let the owner know about it and they took care of it as time permitted. I could have filled out a squawk sheet over it, but that would have taken the plane out of service per our club policies. It wasn't something that made the plane unsafe or not airworthy so why would I force the owner to lose rental time, and another renter to lose their flight?

Most of the club planes that I use are owned by a maintenance company, and they are very well cared for and when something is wrong they go straight to the front of the line. Even with that kind of service there is always something not quite right because they are used a LOT and not everyone lets the owners know about minor stuff. If it's not something that I'm gonna have to cancel my flight over then I don't worry about it. If it's something that someone else might have to cancel for, or that is a nuisance (burned out light, #2 radio display, etc.) I'll let the owner know directly so they know and can take care of it. If it's something airworthy or safety related I'll fill out the squawk sheet and have it taken care of before it flies, but that is very rare.

There's a difference between an old plane and a brand new rental car. You may be paying for both, but if you expect the plane to be in the same shape as the rental car the only way you're gonna find that is in a shiny new plane. My club has those too, but they generally rent for twice as much. You get what you pay for. Personally I'll take the nice but old Cardinal for $99/hr instead of the DA40 at $175 or the SR22 for $275.
 
You need to find your own acceptable level of risk and decide what would make a flight go or no go. (ADM skill set in action) :)

Thats your call as PIC, but I do have to add flying a plane with some squaks can make you a little more proficient pilot and give you a better understanding of the aircraft. (not suggesting being cavalier though :no:)

For example, I have had your bouncing tach (bounced from 1200 to 1800) in a rental and ended up with a hard IFR approach to minimums. Needed to cover that one up as INOP and go by flap setting, airspeed, and VSI to get my power setting. Made me a better pilot (I think) :dunno:

I have also had charging systems fail (3 times) quite some distance from the FBO and had to learn how long a flight could be made on just battery juice and a radio (with hand held as backup) . Now if I lose juice its a non event.

Squaks that increased my workload or created a challenge seems to help me adapt faster with more confidence.
A few were:
Second radios dont work forcing me to use only one
Brakes marginal
Auto pilots wont disconnect
Landing lights burn out when away from FBO
Radio displays partially burned out.
And a few others

Now if I find a huge crack that hasnt been stop drilled or no oil pressure on run up, these would be no go.
 
MyassisDragon said:
I have also had charging systems fail (3 times) quite some distance from the FBO and had to learn how long a flight could be made on just battery juice and a radio (with hand held as backup) . Now if I lose juice its a non event.
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Don't count on this concept. When it happened to me (alternator) it was at night (but only 12 miles to home). Alternator failed (actually came apart due to sheared bolts), about 15 seconds later the battery exploded. I got a heavy dose of smoke in the cockpit from the alternator belt rotating over a dead and partially cocked pulley (didn't know it at the time).

My lesson learned is that ALL the flashlights are sub-optimal when there is smoke in the cockpit. Your BEST light is the light on the Iphone, it penetrates smoke very well.
 
You get what you pay for. If you and the other customers demonstrate that you're not willing to pay for a less-than-100% airplane, they'll start making them 100% and charging accordingly. If you're the only one who feels that way, they aren't going to change their business model for one single customer.
 
My home base is blessed with several rental operations, so one has the option to see which one suits your needs the best. The one I'm using now seems to do a better job of keeping up with the squawks than others I have used, but even with that, there are variations within the fleet. So one learns which planes are likely to be the best for which purposes, and chooses accordingly.
 
I used to rent a Cherokee 140 from an outfit that was generally fairly good about keeping up on maintenance. Except on the 140. The AI was broke, and there were a few other annoying but non critical items that were never repaired.

I made some off the cuff remark in the FBO while CFI's were training students, "The 140 is great. It's reassuring to know that a plane will still keep flying with so many things broken in it."

It got listed on ASO the following Monday, and it sold a month later.
 
A taxi cab is probably a better comparison than a rental car. These 40 year old planes get flown alot, but they're also taken apart and inspected alot as well. Things like bouncing tachs are best addressed at their 100hr inspections. For radios and transponders- a rental outfit should keep spares and swap out as necessary, sending off the old unit in for repair. Like a well used taxi, it may not be pretty, and everything might not be 100%, but it should safe for the occupants.
 
Bottom line... it's about the money. Rental revenue versus safety/convenience/functionality. Hopefully, the schools are placing more emphasis on safety than revenue.
 
uncreative said:
As a renter, I expect the aircraft to be 100%, not merely airworthy.
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You should buy. Yes I think your standards may be too high - at least for the rental price range you're in.

Ownership will let you see that not all squawks are worth fixing - or that fixing one sometimes leads to a larger upgrade (which may be done, but takes time to plan). But in the end you are in complete control.

Honestly the rental experience is the reason I bought (twice) - rentals suck and if the rental doesn't suck the renting sucks. No one takes care of a rental the way they would if they owned it.
 
uncreative said:
As a renter, I expect the aircraft to be 100%, not merely airworthy. Is this unreasonable? I am going to have a chat with the manager of the school to express my concerns...
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So, what years/models are the aircraft in question, and how much are you paying per hour?

Just want to see if the money you are spending for "100%" is realistic or fantasy.
 
A nav light (required for night flight) not yet fixed for my daytime flight. That I can live with.

Once had a squawk about the Mode C on the transponder reporting inaccurate altitudes that was clearned by maintenance. On the next flight (my flight) ATC is ****ed at me for not maintaining the right altitude. Turns out I was fine, but Mode C was indeed way off. This one I did have a chat with the manager about. You can't just "yeah, whatever it's fine" someone's squawk on the transponder. They understood my anger on that one.
 
If you want 100% all the time ,you should buy,and be willing to pay to keep it at 100%.
 
Also depends on who wrote it up, what's their level of experience, etc.

I've seen shimmy write ups for planes which had no problem, but the pilot needed some remedial training on landings.
 
uncreative said:
Seems pretty clear that holding GA rental aircraft to the same standard as say, renting a tractor is unreasonable. I'll take a few deep breaths and just worry about safety issues, even though the principle of paying for something and getting less bugs me.
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I don't know anything about the tractor renting business, but do they rent 30+ year old tractors? What type of plane are you renting and what are you paying? As stated if it's a $250/hour SR22 I would be more sensitive to issues then say a $80/hr Cessna 152.
 
Maybe join a club.
Here's an example:
Yesterday morning one of our pilots was taking his CFII reinstatement ride.
As he was taxiing out to fly with the DPE the turn coordinator decided to die.
They taxied back to her hangar and he called his instructor at 11:00.
By 12:00 we had a tech installing a new turn coordinator at the DPE's hangar.
The check ride was over successfully by 3:30.
That's a pretty extreme example but in our club squawks are handled with in a day. We have a fleet of 5 different planes and our downtime is kept to a minimum.

Dave
 
dautio said:
Maybe join a club.
Here's an example:
Yesterday morning one of our pilots was taking his CFII reinstatement ride.
As he was taxiing out to fly with the DPE the turn coordinator decided to die.
They taxied back to her hangar and he called his instructor at 11:00.
By 12:00 we had a tech installing a new turn coordinator at the DPE's hangar.
The check ride was over successfully by 3:30.
That's a pretty extreme example but in our club squawks are handled with in a day. We have a fleet of 5 different planes and our downtime is kept to a minimum.

Dave
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My impression of the OP was that his club was handling significant problems like this immediately, but problems of a less significant nature were being allowed to slide - like the jiggly tach.
 
uncreative said:
The last few times I've rented planes from my flight school, the planes have had previously squawked issues that either MX was performed and the issue still persists, or just haven't been addressed at all. Obviously these aren't airworthy items, but things like a tach that bounces at operating rpm, a secondary radio display that doesn't work, etc.

As a renter, I expect the aircraft to be 100%, not merely airworthy. Is this unreasonable? I am going to have a chat with the manager of the school to express my concerns, but I'm just looking to get a read on this as I sometimes get wrapped around the axle on issues that aren't that big of a deal.
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I own an airplane and never expect 100%. However, I do demand 100% Airworthiness. Nothing else really matters.

I have 3 categories where I spend money on the airplane.

1. Safety & Airworthiness - immediately resolved.
2. Comfort - Often this is in the Safety category, e.g. comfy seats, sometimes not. I did buy a portable AC last year because little airplanes are flying greenhouses in the summer out here in the southwest.
3. Cosmetic - probably never. If I have an extra $10K I'm remodeling the kitchen, not painting the airplane.
 
As a renter, I do not expect my airplanes to be 100%, but I do think that it is the responsibility of the customer to apply pressure on the supplier to improve.. If customers do not put pressure on the supplier, the supplier will have no incentive to improve and will slowly spiral down to the least expensive way to keep customers coming in.

Customer/supplier should be a partnership.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
uncreative said:
As a renter, I expect the aircraft to be 100%, not merely airworthy. Is this unreasonable?
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I would say it's unreasonable. Do you think all the renters are 100% Are you 100%?

The great benefit of flying rentals is that you get used to broken gauges, duct tape, VORs that read incorrectly, and heading indicators that need to be reset every 5 minutes. You'll read back based on "best guess" as to what you're probably being told--and if the response is not an increase in static punctuated by squeals, you can assume you guessed right. I think this sort of experience is underrated. I can imagine that minor things going wrong would be stressful for someone who's used to having everything work.

I have had oil pressure drop to zero and EGT needle swing to the top (two separate occasions)--in both cases gauge problems. I was able to figure that out (in one case over trees) before a desperate dive to an off airport landing. After these experiences I started joking that if I saw flames engulfing the starboard wing, my first assumption would be gauge error.

If the aircraft is better than I've described, don't bust the FBOs chops. Be grateful they're willing to rent it to you. My attitude in dealing with rentals always started with gratitude that the plane was available to me.

I have sometimes declined planes (always politely)--for example--deflated nose wheel. "Oh we'll get that pumped back up!" --to which I said, "Uh, what if it deflates en route and I get a prop strike?" -- "Good point, we'll change the tire."

The two planes I fly regularly in Europe are both in excellent condition--but maintained by private owners.

BTW I'm now in the process of buying a plane….
 
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Just buy your own plane then you can fix your own squawks....:yes:
 
Clearly, that is the correct answer for me. Its always good to get perspective.
 
uncreative said:
Clearly, that is the correct answer for me. Its always good to get perspective.
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This is just one man's opinion so chew what you will and spit out the rest:

I have owned since before soloing. Closing in on 1500 hours. I have owned, to date, three very low time airframes...at some point, they were all flown with unaddressed squawks.

If you are buying with the hopes of flying a 100% no squawk aircraft...don't.

The biggest difference is when you rent...someone else fixes (or should) when you rent...you fix.

Depending on what you buy, you will, at some point, fly with something broken.
 
Aircraft are rarely in 100 % condition and I would shift your expectations a little. You’re looking for safety issues as the PIC. I find the airliners I fly always have a few deferrals and are no different than rental aircraft. They even have nose wheel shimmy’s.:)

Renting aircraft is not much different than running a small airline. You have constant revenue pressure and very limited time to address issues. I had to perform most of my MX during the overnight hours and was blessed with above average parts availibility, which can be the lynch pin alot of times. Squawks break down into 3 categories

1. No-Go Airworthiness Item
2. Minimum Equipment Items that can be deferred on the MEL
3. Non-Essential Furnishings (torn seat back, crack plastic seat belt holder etc.)

At the 100 hour inspections, there is an opportunity to get the plane as clean as possible, sometimes you have to carry-over an item until the next time but I always tried to avoid that. Repetitive issues are the ones that are worth hitting the stop button for, in the end it saves revenue and creates less angst.
 
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I used to rent from a FBO years ago and their online scheduling system maintained historical squawks and one bored day in work, I went thru them, of course you see some low risk squawks repeated every so often, but some repeaters had me thinking that the FBO only was using the band aid approach to 'fix' it, as opposed to correcting the root cause. Those probably cost them more money in the long run, constantly band aiding the issue.
 
I'm a former avionics tech. After 22 years in the Navy, I worked as an independent contractor, doing avionics line maintenance, repairs and occasional upgrades for a local flying club. I also worked at a major repair depot on Boeings and a few MD80s.

a 40 year old Cessna or Piper is going to have repeat squawks. Those old radio trays are worn. The connectors in the back of those trays are worn and the radio chassis themselves are worn. They don't fit together like they did back in the '70s.

Same thing with the lights, same thing with all the little pieces parts, fairings, fasteners and so on.

Repeat squawks don't necessarily mean the FBO isn't fixing them right. There's a difference between making acceptable repairs as a going business concern and renewing all the little parts of the airplane the way a proud private owner would.

I jokingly refer to the airplanes I pay to fly as "rent-a-wrecks". But, as long as it'll pass a preflight and run up and is capable of performing the "mission", I'll forgive the odd radio knob falling off, and missing interior trim pieces.
 
wilkersk said:
I'm a former avionics tech. After 22 years in the Navy, I worked as an independent contractor, doing avionics line maintenance, repairs and occasional upgrades for a local flying club. I also worked at a major repair depot on Boeings and a few MD80s.

a 40 year old Cessna or Piper is going to have repeat squawks. Those old radio trays are worn. The connectors in the back of those trays are worn and the radio chassis themselves are worn. They don't fit together like they did back in the '70s.

Same thing with the lights, same thing with all the little pieces parts, fairings, fasteners and so on.

Repeat squawks don't necessarily mean the FBO isn't fixing them right. There's a difference between making acceptable repairs as a going business concern and renewing all the little parts of the airplane the way a proud private owner would.

I jokingly refer to the airplanes I pay to fly as "rent-a-wrecks". But, as long as it'll pass a preflight and run up and is capable of performing the "mission", I'll forgive the odd radio knob falling off, and missing interior trim pieces.
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Missing trim and the like I don't care but when the brakes fail 3 times in a 15 day period.... can't gloss over than one.
 
Find a near new airplane and rent it. It will cost more but have fewer squawks.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Find a near new airplane and rent it. It will cost more but have fewer squawks.
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the new ones can break too...they are airplanes


filled 2 mx logbooks up cover-to=cover in less than a year with a Brand New Cirrus Sr-22 :hairraise: we asked for another one.

.a local guy here bought a Brand New 2015 G36 Bonanza....ate through 7 alternators in 5 months....
 
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