Deal or ?

Typo or something wrong? Maybe I should switch targets to that instead of the Chief?

Ryan
 
Well, it IS a buyer's market.

Avionics are junk. Narco isn't supported. KX 170A??? Not sure that is even legal to turn on anymore. And the Loran is unnecessary weight because the loran system is no more.

Who knows? Doesn't look like a typo. What are others of that era selling for?
 
Description says "Perfect project!" - wonder what that means? Does it need work that isn't obvious? Is the picture taken before it was disassembled and stored in the rafters of a barn?
 
I think there is more than meets the eye. The ad itself says "perfect project". That suggests there is something wrong with it more than outdated radios. That said, if it is really airworthy, and the radios are the worst of it, that aircraft is a steal.
 
This is the one I emailed on. The engine has a timing issue and the wing walk area is soft.
 
The KX 170-B is a slide in replacement for the A, the loran would go, but the transponder would stay.

The Franklin 165 is a 15,000 engine, to any one flying a stinson 108. but they are a fine engine to fly there is plenty of support for them, and they are smoother than spandex.

These are beautiful old aircraft and a real show stopper when they are made to sparkle.

the only thing that might be a sale stopper would be the fabric. the ad doesn't tell what the condition of the covers.
 
bigred177 said:
This is the one I emailed on. The engine has a timing issue and the wing walk area is soft.
Click to expand...

That's a big issue........ thus the 10, grand.

the engine timing is no biggy.
 
Here is his response, for anyone interested.

Thank you for your interest in my client's Bellanca. This aircraft is being sold AS IS. The main issues are a timing issue with the engine and the walkway up the wing to the cockpit needs some support. The aircraft is no longer in a current annual, so we advise all who are interested to have an A & P Mechanic check out the aircraft to see what their recommendations would be to pass an annual. My client said that he would be able to ferry the aircraft, so this is not to say that it is no longer airworthy.

Please do not hesitate to ask if there is anything else I can help you with!
Thank you for your time!

Sincerely,
 
bigred177 said:
Here is his response, for anyone interested.

Thank you for your interest in my client's Bellanca. This aircraft is being sold AS IS. The main issues are a timing issue with the engine and the walkway up the wing to the cockpit needs some support. The aircraft is no longer in a current annual, so we advise all who are interested to have an A & P Mechanic check out the aircraft to see what their recommendations would be to pass an annual. My client said that he would be able to ferry the aircraft, so this is not to say that it is no longer airworthy.

Please do not hesitate to ask if there is anything else I can help you with!
Thank you for your time!

Sincerely,
Click to expand...

Some Support ? like a support group of wood workers ?

that broker needs a lesson on what " Airworthy means "
 
The wing walk is a 2000$ repair, very common.
The hidden potential disaster is beneath the wingwalk and the other wing. If these are like the Viking, they are fuel tank covers 1/4" mahogany and if you let water in, they get weak/rot. That is the 2000$ part. If it has been stored outside or left a very long time then the supporting ribs and spars could be damaged. Now you are talking a new wing which probably means parting the bird out to recoup your $10K. You will probably come out ahead on that, but if you planned to fly - and instead spend all your time in a garage photgraphing, cataloging, shipping parts to ebayers you will not be too happy about it.
It is still possible there is nothing seriously wrong with the airframe - it just needs a proper inspection to determine what you have here. The timing' - I guess the worst case would be improperly rebuilt or installed mags, that is not a disaster....unless this new engine had the cam installed one tooth off, when they say 'timing' as in valve timing, in that event you are cracking the case.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The wing walk is a 2000$ repair, very common.
The hidden potential disaster is beneath the wingwalk and the other wing. If these are like the Viking, they are fuel tank covers 1/4" mahogany and if you let water in, they get weak/rot. That is the 2000$ part. If it has been stored outside or left a very long time then the supporting ribs and spars could be damaged. Now you are talking a new wing which probably means parting the bird out to recoup your $10K. You will probably come out ahead on that, but if you planned to fly - and instead spend all your time in a garage photgraphing, cataloging, shipping parts to ebayers you will not be too happy about it.
It is still possible there is nothing seriously wrong with the airframe - it just needs a proper inspection to determine what you have here. The timing' - I guess the worst case would be improperly rebuilt or installed mags, that is not a disaster....unless this new engine had the cam installed one tooth off, when they say 'timing' as in valve timing, in that event you are cracking the case.
Click to expand...

I have a pig in this sack....... tell me what color and sex it is.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
...unless this new engine had the cam installed one tooth off, when they say 'timing' as in valve timing, in that event you are cracking the case.
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Nope not on a Franklin.. the accessory case can be removed and the adjustment to the cam can be made.
 

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Ok, so let's say the whole plane needs a recovering, the wings are soft, and the avionics are junk. Let's say you have the ability, facilities, and the willingness to do all the work (other than radios) yourself.

So you just invested, what, $20-25K, radios inclusive. You offer $ 8K which gives you $2K to get the aircraft to your place. The current owner gaurantees clean title (he pays for title search) and provides all existing documentation, mx logs, inclusive.

So what if that $20-25K I mentioned becomes $40-50K? After 8-18 months you have a pristine Bellanca which you can be assured of and it's a show stopper. It out performs the spam cans in every way. And all for what, maybe $70K total? Where is the problem?

Some guys love projects. They thrive on projects. Using Tom D and his F-24 as an example, none of us really drool about a refab'd C-172, do we...no matter who did the work.
 
Tom-D said:
Nope not on a Franklin.. the accessory case can be removed and the adjustment to the cam can be made.
Click to expand...

I am seeing gears. Something tells me this will not be a (100$) piece of cake for the average owner regardless. If it actually is this problem.
 
Projects are like kids, they are fun if they are yours, you take a lot of pride in what you have created. You take offense if anyone disparages them. As they get older, if you have looked after them well, the pride remains. If you neglect them, well, you get what you deserve.

Myself, I find more enjoyment when the projects, or the kids, are someone else's.
I guess I'm just getting old, grumpy, and lazy.

John
 
I vote grumpy. I mean, gra ah ah ah ah ahm py. Sheesh. My projects, I rip em up, I ride em hard. Then I fix em and do it again. You wanna disparage them, I have no problem.

I guess you have in mind the stuff that belongs in the museum type of project. Life is not a museum but more power to those types too.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I am seeing gears. Something tells me this will not be a (100$) piece of cake for the average owner regardless. If it actually is this problem.
Click to expand...

Actually before you tear it down, you pull a mag and stick a borescope in and see if the TDC marks line up.

If they do, you replace the mag and re-time them correctly.
 
Richard said:
Ok, so let's say the whole plane needs a recovering, the wings are soft, and the avionics are junk. Let's say you have the ability, facilities, and the willingness to do all the work (other than radios) yourself.


Assuming the new owner has the abilities, and has an A&P that is willing to supervise, your fabric and supplies are going to be between $10-$15k, plus the wood repair in the wings. This aircraft would not normally be a IFR trainer or use in IFR conditions very much. so we junk the loran, replace the 170 A with a B If it has a ADF, and it works keep it, If it don't junk it too.

So you just invested, what, $20-25K, radios inclusive. You offer $ 8K which gives you $2K to get the aircraft to your place. The current owner gaurantees clean title (he pays for title search) and provides all existing documentation, mx logs, inclusive.
Remember your dealing with a Broker, worried about his commission, not the owner, a sales contract dictating the conditions of the sale would be appropriate.

So what if that $20-25K I mentioned becomes $40-50K? After 8-18 months you have a pristine Bellanca which you can be assured of and it's a show stopper. It out performs the spam cans in every way. And all for what, maybe $70K total? Where is the problem?

How many wish they has a Jeanie in a bottle that could tell what the market will do on these old aircraft, Do you believe I would have taken the 24 as a project knowing what the market has done to the value of toys?

Some guys love projects. They thrive on projects. Using Tom D and his F-24 as an example, none of us really drool about a refab'd C-172, do we...no matter who did the work.
Click to expand...

In this day and age of the collapsing economy the value of these toys are a personal thing, some will think it a wonderfu restored treasure, others won't. That is why the Antique classic aircraft market is a very thin slice of the aircraft market.

You'll only do it because you think it is a cool thing to show off
 
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Tom, by the way, how's the -24 doing?
 
Meh, first off they aren't pretty and have tiny windows. When the engine was overhauled, it was assembled incorrectly, wonder what besides the cam went in wrong? So, I'm doing the whole engine again, that's mostly just labor though hopefully so not much expense there. Panel..Well, what do you expect for $10k? $40k gets a new panel.
Fabric, well, it already has Ceconite, besides, fabric isn't that big of a deal, call it $20k, $25k if you go fancy on the paint job.

Once the fabric is stripped is where the real risk comes in, especially with a "soft" wingwalk area. There is rotten wood here, and once rot starts, it spreads pretty quickly which means there's going to be a lot of work entailed in inspecting, killing and repairing rot damage and if there was enough moisture to get into a rot isse, there is a really good chance that there is going to be a rust issue in the structural tubing as well.

This one will be a bigger project than your Fairchild without being anywhere near as pretty.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
that was my point.
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The question is, How do you open and inspect that wing with out buying the aircraft?

If it were my Aircraft, you wouldn't cut nothing until the check cleared the bank.
 
jhausch said:
Tom, by the way, how's the -24 doing?
Click to expand...

The warner is still apart waiting for the master rod to come back from rebuild, it was promised in 2 weeks that was 6 weeks ago.

I guess I did not understand which 2 weeks he meant.
 
Tom-D said:
The question is, How do you open and inspect that wing with out buying the aircraft?

If it were my Aircraft, you wouldn't cut nothing until the check cleared the bank.
Click to expand...


Exactly, and that is why this one will meet the same fate as so many of its stable mates. Once you got soft wood, you either fix it or write it off, because no one is going to buy it. He could probably pull the engine, fix it, and get more than he's asking for the plane... If he could find someone that wants the engine.
 
About a year or so ago, I showed an old pilot a Bellanca I'd found a "deal" on. He told me to steer clear of Bellanca's for my experience level. I didn't think he meant piloting experience (athough he could have- but he's a member of the camp that belives that a pilot that can fly an airplane can fly another airplane).

You learn the most interesting things in these threads....mahogany wings, wood rot and such.

Keep it coming...
 
Jaybird180 said:
About a year or so ago, I showed an old pilot a Bellanca I'd found a "deal" on. He told me to steer clear of Bellanca's for my experience level. I didn't think he meant piloting experience (athough he could have- but he's a member of the camp that belives that a pilot that can fly an airplane can fly another airplane).

You learn the most interesting things in these threads....mahogany wings, wood rot and such.

Keep it coming...
Click to expand...

Actually it's a mahogany panel over the fuel tank area ... the wings spars are sitka spruce

http://pinckneyaircraft.com/bellanca.asp
 
Tom-D said:
The question is, How do you open and inspect that wing with out buying the aircraft?
Click to expand...

You probably won't have heard of this if you are not dealing with them on a regular basis. We use Bellanca SL87A:
http://www.stinsonvoyager.com/specsheets/Bellanca Low Wing Wood Inspection.pdf

Henn, you are right about the steel tubing being at risk of corrosion. You are wrong about it being not pretty. They can be very pretty. Oh, and rot doesn't 'spread'. Any wet wood grows fungus. It can't spread to dry wood. Thanks to all for not propating the misnomer "dryrot".

Jaybird, all Bellancas especially Vikings are easy to fly. I can grease on a Viking 10x easier than a high wing Cessna. The biggest adaptation necessary when moving up to a Viking is learning to slow down at destination, much like an high performer. I agree if you don't have much experience inspecting, buying airplanes, stick to something common.

Greg - nice link.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
You probably won't have heard of this if you are not dealing with them on a regular basis. We use Bellanca SL87A:
http://www.stinsonvoyager.com/specsheets/Bellanca Low Wing Wood Inspection.pdf

Henn, you are right about the steel tubing being at risk of corrosion. You are wrong about it being not pretty. They can be very pretty. Oh, and rot doesn't 'spread'. Any wet wood grows fungus. It can't spread to dry wood. Thanks to all for not propating the misnomer "dryrot".

Jaybird, all Bellancas especially Vikings are easy to fly. I can grease on a Viking 10x easier than a high wing Cessna. The biggest adaptation necessary when moving up to a Viking is learning to slow down at destination, much like an high performer. I agree if you don't have much experience inspecting, buying airplanes, stick to something common.

Greg - nice link.
Click to expand...

I said nothing about "dry rot", moisture spreads as well. If you have moisture in one area of a wing to propogate rot, you're now obligated to open the whole thing to look for rot. If there was enough moisture for rot, there was enough moisture for rust.

That's why a Bellanca is either pristine or junk. Regardless though, it's still not pretty.
 
So it's a mexican standoff? Owner wants to sell. Buyer wants to inspect. Owner should pull wing or ultrasound the wood in situ.


A 3rd option would be a purchase agreement conditional to inspection. Sure, I'll still buy it, but not until that wing inspection is completed. That will be the starting point.


I hate seeing otherwise good machines die because of recalcitrant owners.
 
Richard said:
So it's a mexican standoff? Owner wants to sell. Buyer wants to inspect. Owner should pull wing or ultrasound the wood in situ.


A 3rd option would be a purchase agreement conditional to inspection. Sure, I'll still buy it, but not until that wing inspection is completed. That will be the starting point.


I hate seeing otherwise good machines die because of recalcitrant owners.
Click to expand...

No ultrasounding wood, you can x-ray it, but the best thing is to cut a hole and take a sniff. The nose will know rot, it's a very distinct sweet smell.

BTW, who was talking about otherwise good machines?:rolleyes::D;)
 
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So it's a mexican standoff? Owner wants to sell. Buyer wants to inspect.
Click to expand...

A lot of what happens is the buyer moves on to other planes (not like there is a shortage right now) and the seller waits til someone less picky shows up (that can be years right now).
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
A lot of what happens is the buyer moves on to other planes (not like there is a shortage right now) and the seller waits til someone less picky shows up (that can be years right now).
Click to expand...

The seller is down to the price of that Franklin now.
 
If I needed a Franklin for my Stinson 108, I'd show the seller 5k cash and if he took it get a signed bill of sale, then pull the engine and place a sign on the aircraft "FREE STUFF" and walk away leaving the bill of sale in the cockpit,
 
Tom-D said:
If I needed a Franklin for my Stinson 108, I'd show the seller 5k cash and if he took it get a signed bill of sale, then pull the engine and place a sign on the aircraft "FREE STUFF" and walk away leaving the bill of sale in the cockpit,
Click to expand...


That will be what eventually happens most likely. It's presumably got good engine parts, but I wouldn't bet on it not needing a cam.
 
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