Deal or no deal?

bflynn

bflynn

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Brian Flynn
Ok....so I have a friend who has a deal proposed to him. He has been offered a very good rental rate - $20 + fuel - to fly someone else's airplane on about a 10 hour re-positioning flight. The aircraft is owned by a flight school who just needs to move the airplane around. Fuel burn is in the 13 gph area.

What do you think - deal or no deal?
 
Meh, not too bad. In comparison I've normally been paid to relocate aircraft.
 
bflynn said:
Ok....so I have a friend who has a deal proposed to him. He has been offered a very good rental rate - $20 + fuel - to fly someone else's airplane on about a 10 hour re-positioning flight. The aircraft is owned by a flight school who just needs to move the airplane around. Fuel burn is in the 13 gph area.

What do you think - deal or no deal?
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He's paying to reposition an airplane for the flight school? I guess it depends on how much he wants to do it.
 
What kind of certificate does the pilot hold?
 
He's paying to do it, not being paid, so I don't see what difference it makes.
 
TK211X said:
This is the main question.
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I don't think so.

Your friend wants you to do him a favor and reposition his airplane. Are you claiming you have to have a commercial certificate if you only pay fuel + cost of wear because flight time is compensation? If that's the case then you could never fly your friend's plane for any reason and you could never do your friend any favor. I've always said - if you take 61.113 to the extreme, pilots cannot fly with any other person involved.

This is not the main question. The main question is - do you think it's a good deal or not?

We're leaning toward no because at the price, it's equivalent to what he pays for flight hours anyway.
 
Everskyward said:
He's paying to do it, not being paid, so I don't see what difference it makes.
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I had it backwards. But still is that his "pro rata share" and all that happy horse ****?

Perhaps "he" should do what "he" wants and refrain from discussing it on an open forum.
 
My cousin was in college at Ga Tech, he had just finished his IFR. His father bought a Mooney that was at Fulton County and threw him the keys and said "fly it home this weekend".

Should he have said "Nope, sorry dad. I don't have a commercial certificate, that would be construed as compensation. You'll have to hire a ferry pilot".

Seriously, you guys go way off the deep end from time to time.
 
petrolero said:
I had it backwards. But still is that his "pro rata share" and all that happy horse ****?

Perhaps "he" should do what "he" wants and refrain from discussing it on an open forum.
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He will do what he wants and it isn't me. I'm grounded for medical right now.
 
AustinPilot said:
Which only matters if you're carrying persons or property, no?
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I think not...

"(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

Bolded mine.

I believe it's been ruled that flight time in and of itself is "compensation". Following that logic, I'd be concerned about the steep discount.

Whether it's worth worrying about is an individual matter. Were an accident to happen during that flight, there could be insurance or enforcement issues to deal with. Unlikely, to be sure, but best to understand the letter of the law before one tries to bend it.
 
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Huh.

He's paying for the airplane. The price is pretty much the cost of the airplane, fuel + maintenance. How do you figure there's additional compensation in there for flight time?

You're saying that if he rents the airplane then his flight time is compensation. You do realize that, don't you?
 
FastEddieB said:
I think not...

"(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

Bolded mine.

I believe it's been ruled that flight time in and of itself is "compensation". Following that logic, I'd be concerned about the steep discount.

Whether it's worth worrying about is an individual matter. Were an accident happen during that flight, there could be insurance or enforcement issues to deal with. Unlikely, to be sure, but best to understand the letter of the law before one tries to bend it.
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Then here's another scenario. You are a private pilot, and you and your friend get in the friend's airplane. The friend offers to let you fly it, but the friend is footing the whole cost. You decline, because you are not paying the pro-rata share. Really?
 
bflynn said:
Huh.

He's paying for the airplane. The price is pretty much the cost of the airplane, fuel + maintenance. How do you figure there's additional compensation in there for flight time?

You're saying that if he rents the airplane then his flight time is compensation. You do realize that, don't you?
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It's the same concept as cost-sharing. See the many threads about FlyteNow for a dissection of the myriad ways of viewing compensation, "holding out", etc.

Just tell him to go do it and have fun. Or not. But either way, do not write any letters to the FAA asking about it. :D
 
Everskyward said:
Then here's another scenario. You are a private pilot, and you and your friend get in the friend's airplane. The friend offers to let you fly it, but the friend is footing the whole cost. You decline, because you are not paying the pro-rata share. Really?
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No, not really. Theoretically.
 
I think from the cost standpoint we've determined that it's pretty much a wash...it's the normal price of the airplane. Might incur some hotel costs.

I think the reasons to do it are for the adventure of it - like flying a silly plastic Monkey across the country. It's a reason to fly, the only choice is do it or not.
 
Is he departing locally and dropping off, or picking it up and bringing it back. Is ground transport being provided? If he is paying his own way, does that change the deal for him?
 
A friend was offered the same deal (I'm sure that it's the same school). Its a commercial ferry IMO. And kind of a bad deal.
 
I. Have moved school airplanes,to repair shops,with no money involved. Did it as a favor.
 
I would only be concerned since it is a flight school airplane. I would think there may be the ever slightest risk of some sort of audit or whatever. If it was privately owned, who the hell would ever really care. Heck, if a friend offered to buy me dinner, drinks and tickets to the movies if I moved his airplane, I would do it, just not brag about it.
 
It's not so much the money that bothers me but the fact that he's doing what really sounds like a commercial ferry flight. The purpose of the flight is to move a plane for a business from one point to another. He has no reason to do this flight on his own. The fact that they are charging him to do this to me makes it a crap deal for him since he's doing them a favor, and also looks like a rule dodge on their part. I think an FAA inspector with a bug up his ass could take issue with it. That said it's not likely to ever get noticed or cared about unless the school has already attracted attention to themselves.
 
Lets see...lets say $4per gallon *13GPH...$52 per hour for fuel +$20=$72 per hour total. What plane is this? Seems like a good deal to build up some time if you ask me. Around here a 172 is $140 an hour. So...I say deal. If nothing else he is building time and experience so why not.

Geez after all the question was is it a deal or not:rolleyes:
 
Hey Joe you really ought to try flying my plane? I parked it over at airport A so you can get it there. Hey when your done having fun with it can you park it at B for me. Thanks!
 
And some wonder why more people aren't attracted to this as a hobby... :dunno:
 
bflynn said:
My cousin was in college at Ga Tech, he had just finished his IFR. His father bought a Mooney that was at Fulton County and threw him the keys and said "fly it home this weekend".

Should he have said "Nope, sorry dad. I don't have a commercial certificate, that would be construed as compensation. You'll have to hire a ferry pilot".

Seriously, you guys go way off the deep end from time to time.
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This is a log in just for this one post. No, Brian, you're out in left field. FAA has held (per Alberta Brown, at FAA Washington) that the added hours at a discount are compensation. There was an enforcement about his about 15 years ago. I'm not saying it's REASONABLE, I'm simply telling you the FAA position on this. You can email her if you want.

No, I don't have it handy, and no, I'm not gong to look it up. But the more vehement the poster, the more likely he's "out in left field".

You, are.
 
bflynn said:
Ok....so I have a friend who has a deal proposed to him. He has been offered a very good rental rate - $20 + fuel - to fly someone else's airplane on about a 10 hour re-positioning flight.
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If he is renting the aircraft, he can leave the aircraft anywhere the flight school wants him to. because he is not being compensated to fly the aircraft.
 
bbchien said:
This is a log in just for this one post. No, Brian, you're out in left field. FAA has held (per Alberta Brown, at FAA Washington) that the added hours at a discount is compensation.There was an enforcement about his about 15 years ago. I'm not saying it's REASONABLE, I'm simply telling you the FAA position on this. You can email her if you want.
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Good point Bruce, at the regular rate he is golden.
 
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