Dead Stick Landing, RV-12

[nddons]

I didn't see any oil covering the window, obscuring your visibility.

I didn't see any teeth-rattling vibration as part of a blade comes off the prop, or engine tries to eat itself after a mechanical failure.

I didn't see any demo of real emotional reaction in which the stoppage was unexpected, rather than well planned in advance.

I didn't see how this relates to real engine stoppage where there is no option to turn back on the engine.

I didn't see any way this relates to engine stoppage shortly after takeoff, at or below pattern altitude.

I didn't see how this provides anything of educational value beyond that which a CFI is already required to teach pre-solo and tested during their check ride: "61.87(d)(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions."

I didn't see how your video differs from this RV-12 engine off video, taken almost exactly 2 years prior to yours and even involves an immediate takeoff after landing:

What's your point? He didn't demonstrate pouring water out of a pitcher while inverted either. So what?

That was an awful landing

Maybe next time we'll have Geico go up with a camera, and we'll plant a small explosive device in his cowl, that will explode when he least expects it. Then we can satisfy your little list.

Exactly. Maybe with the engine torn from its mounts, Jim might be interested.

 

[nddons]

Would not matter what I say, so look my name up in the FAA database. You have done engine out, right? You had this done to you two or three times at least, when you didn't expect it, right? What did this video teach you that you were supposed to have learned prior even to solo?

I'm all for education. The OP did something that he found educational - good for him. I normally see no reason to repeat myself, since my points should make clear what I'm getting at, but I'll repeat myself anyway for clarity: the video really doesn't address the issue of panic at all because it completely bypasses the cause. Planned engine out doesn't cause panic and if a pilot in anything but a balloon doesn't learn something about gliding then that is a case of failed education, not failure to control composure.

I submit that if the OP did a demo of planned engine out shortly after takeoff at, say, pattern altitude or even a little above then he'd have a bit of anxiety about the demo and sweat a little on his first attempt. Anxiety is not panic, but it closes in on a mental state that may start to negatively affect ones piloting.

In the words of Sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis."

 

[RoscoeT]

I didn't see any oil covering the window, obscuring your visibility.

And what percentage of engine failures involve oil covering the window? It is a small percentage.

I didn't see any teeth-rattling vibration as part of a blade comes off the prop, or engine tries to eat itself after a mechanical failure.

Lose a whole prop blade in most airplanes and there's a good chance the whole engine's coming off. Good luck if you don't have a parachute.

I didn't see any demo of real emotional reaction in which the stoppage was unexpected, rather than well planned in advance.

Geico, can you scream and cry for a few seconds first, next time?

I didn't see how this relates to real engine stoppage where there is no option to turn back on the engine.

Yep, it was a video-editing stunt. Geico's engine never actually stopped. .

I didn't see any way this relates to engine stoppage shortly after takeoff, at or below pattern altitude.

Dude, this is ONE video. There are lots of different variables and situations you can find yourself in when losing an engine. Engines quit in all phases of flight. Was this not one that actually happens? I think so.

I didn't see how this provides anything of educational value beyond that which a CFI is already required to teach pre-solo and tested during their check ride: "61.87(d)(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions."

Most CFIs demonstrate and conduct actual deadstick glide performance?

I didn't see how your video differs from this RV-12 engine off video, taken almost exactly 2 years prior to yours and even involves an immediate takeoff after landing:

Hope next time you post to this forum you first perform an extensive Google search to ensure you're not imparting any aviation wisdom that's already been said somewhere before. You may also want to go back and delete a bunch of your old posts.

 

[Jim Logajan]

In the words of Sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis."

I can't; I don't have an LTA rating.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Dude, this is ONE video. There are lots of different variables and situations you can find yourself in when losing an engine. Engines quit in all phases of flight. Was this not one that actually happens? I think so.

Here is a simple question to you and any other pilot who has soloed: what did you learn from this video that was useful to you? What did you not know or realize prior to seeing the OP's video?

Most CFIs demonstrate and conduct actual deadstick glide performance?

Well all my initials landings were dead stick....

(I might be a little grumpy because I'm grounded for who knows how long....)

 

[dell30rb]

Geico, can you scream and cry for a few seconds first, next time?

rofl

 

[Geico266]

Why the RV-12, vs. the 9? As you know, this is new to me, so I'm just curious.

Also, another stupid question, but why are performance numbers for RVs shown in MPH vs. Kts?

I like the Rotax 912, it's E-LSA and builds much faster than a 9. I was done and flying in 888 hours of building time.

 

[alfadog]

Killing your engine deliberately to practice an engine-out landing is like practicing bleeding before surgery. LOL.

 

[Geico266]

Do you remember the indicated vertical speed during whatever time you were at best glode speed? Thirteen-to-one glide ratio is impressive!

I really liked the smooth input on the flight controlls al all phases of engine-out flight.

Thanks for posting it!

I was only losing 500-600 fpm.

 

[RoscoeT]

Here is a simple question to you and any other pilot who has soloed: what did you learn from this video that was useful to you? What did you not know or realize prior to seeing the OP's video?

Since I'm not an RV-12 pilot, nothing. Some RV-12 pilots and many student pilots would feel otherwise though, given the demonstration of the RV's actual engine out gliding capability, the fact that there's no reason to panic, and that you CAN develop the skills to judge where you can glide to, and actually put the plane down where you want WITHOUT power. Watching student pilots perform "simulated engine outs", not many have developed those skills. Lots of rated pilots too. I don't understand why you have your panties on so tight.

 

[Geico266]

Since I'm not an RV-12 pilot, nothing. Some RV-12 pilots and many student pilots would feel otherwise though, given the demonstration of the RV's actual engine out gliding capability, the fact that there's no reason to panic, and that you CAN develop the skills to judge where you can glide to, and actually put the plane down where you want WITHOUT power. Watching student pilots perform "simulated engine outs", not many have developed those skills. Lots of rated pilots too. I don't understand why you have your panties on so tight.

Other than wadding up his panties, this is exactly was I was trying to do!

No need to panic when the engine quits. Fly the plane, pick a spot to land, fly the plane, don't do any maneuvers you haven't done before, fly the plane.

When all else fails fly the plane.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Other than wadding up his panties, this is exactly was I was trying to do!

No need to panic when the engine quits. Fly the plane, pick a spot to land, fly the plane, don't do any maneuvers you haven't done before, fly the plane.

When all else fails fly the plane.

Do you have any numbers on the difference in sink rate between a windmilling prop and a dead prop, all other factors equal? Have often heard a windmilling prop generates more drag than a dead prop....

 

[Geico266]

Do you have any numbers on the difference in sink rate between a windmilling prop and a dead prop, all other factors equal? Have often heard a windmilling prop generates more drag than a dead prop....

I really don't know, but would be really interested to find out. The Rotax 912 has a 2.43-1 reduction gear box on the engine which stops the prop.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I really don't know, but would be really interested to find out. The Rotax 912 has a 2.43-1 reduction gear box on the engine which stops the prop.

Maybe you could test those numbers next time you go up in that motor-glider of yours....

 

[PilotAlan]

I didn't see any oil covering the window, obscuring your visibility.

I didn't see any teeth-rattling vibration as part of a blade comes off the prop, or engine tries to eat itself after a mechanical failure.

I didn't see any demo of real emotional reaction in which the stoppage was unexpected, rather than well planned in advance.

I didn't see how this relates to real engine stoppage where there is no option to turn back on the engine.

I didn't see any way this relates to engine stoppage shortly after takeoff, at or below pattern altitude.

I didn't see how this provides anything of educational value beyond that which a CFI is already required to teach pre-solo and tested during their check ride: "61.87(d)(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions."

I didn't see how your video differs from this RV-12 engine off video, taken almost exactly 2 years prior to yours and even involves an immediate takeoff after landing:

Really?

I guess there's no point practicing at the range unless you actually get shot first.

 

[Silvaire]

Do you have any numbers on the difference in sink rate between a windmilling prop and a dead prop, all other factors equal? Have often heard a windmilling prop generates more drag than a dead prop....

Well it does obviously because think of the energy required to turn that prop by hand through a complete revolution. If your prop is windmilling then that much energy is being taken from your glide ratio as opposed to just the aerodynamic drag of the stationary prop blades. The "numbers" would depend on a lot of factors up to and including the compression ratio of the engine but you would always come out better with a stationary prop due to the fact that you wouldn't be exerting the effort to spin the motor over. The other factor however is that you would have to decrease your speed below that of best glide to get the propeller to stop and in the end it might be a wash as to how far you could actually get.

 

[spiderweb]

I didn't see any oil covering the window, obscuring your visibility.

I didn't see any teeth-rattling vibration as part of a blade comes off the prop, or engine tries to eat itself after a mechanical failure.

I didn't see any demo of real emotional reaction in which the stoppage was unexpected, rather than well planned in advance.

I didn't see how this relates to real engine stoppage where there is no option to turn back on the engine.

I didn't see any way this relates to engine stoppage shortly after takeoff, at or below pattern altitude.

I didn't see how this provides anything of educational value beyond that which a CFI is already required to teach pre-solo and tested during their check ride: "61.87(d)(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions."

I didn't see how your video differs from this RV-12 engine off video, taken almost exactly 2 years prior to yours and even involves an immediate takeoff after landing:

Hate the way he let that nose slam down.

 

[spiderweb]

Very nice video!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Well it does obviously because think of the energy required to turn that prop by hand through a complete revolution. If your prop is windmilling then that much energy is being taken from your glide ratio as opposed to just the aerodynamic drag of the stationary prop blades. The "numbers" would depend on a lot of factors up to and including the compression ratio of the engine but you would always come out better with a stationary prop due to the fact that you wouldn't be exerting the effort to spin the motor over. The other factor however is that you would have to decrease your speed below that of best glide to get the propeller to stop and in the end it might be a wash as to how far you could actually get.

Yeah, I know. I want to see it happen.

 

[Skylane81E]

Question is, how much energy is lost to a windmilling prop and how much is lost to the time below glide speed to stop the prop?
I liked the advice of the "tailwheel" guy in his video, probably not worth trying in a real failure. I could also see a scared pilot fixating on getting it stopped when not all props will stop windmilling.

 

[dell30rb]

Question is, how much energy is lost to a windmilling prop and how much is lost to the time below glide speed to stop the prop?
I liked the advice of the "tailwheel" guy in his video, probably not worth trying in a real failure. I could also see a scared pilot fixating on getting it stopped when not all props will stop windmilling.

One thing I am curious about, is if a high speed dive would get the prop going again. Probably depends on the airplane.

In the clipped cub which must be hand-propped, I always choose a spot near a suitable landing field when practicing spins. The C85 is well tuned and is not likely to ever stall, but when coming back to stall speed with the throttle pulled out the prop sure slows wayyy down.

 

[N801BH]

One thing I am curious about, is if a high speed dive would get the prop going again. Probably depends on the airplane.

In the clipped cub which must be hand-propped, I always choose a spot near a suitable landing field when practicing spins. The C85 is well tuned and is not likely to ever stall, but when coming back to stall speed with the throttle pulled out the prop sure slows wayyy down.

Most, if not all planes using a redrive or a geared engine cannot re-spin the prop in flight for a restart... Too much internal resistance...

 

[dell30rb]

Most, if not all planes using a redrive or a geared engine cannot re-spin the prop in flight for a restart... Too much internal resistance...

Good to know - but what about ye olde cub?

 

[whifferdill]

In the clipped cub which must be hand-propped, I always choose a spot near a suitable landing field when practicing spins. The C85 is well tuned and is not likely to ever stall, but when coming back to stall speed with the throttle pulled out the prop sure slows wayyy down.

Check out this video of Kirk Wicker flying the Cub deadstick. The prop ticks over a few times in the video starting at 0:45. He would have been doing over 100 mph before the roll at 0:45. Of course this prop is wood, so it might be easier to get it to move, but harder to sustain rotation. Unlikely you'd get the metal prop to go deadstick even if the engine stopped....unless you sustained the effort. Still good practice to do spins over a landing spot. I once went deadstick in the Pitts doing spins after changing the prop. Luckily I had a starter, but I could have also put it down on a clear spot if I had to. But I'd much rather land the Cub in a plowed field than the Pitts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpMXIv3l_YI

 

[Morne]

This video inspired me to do some (simulated) engine-out drills in my 182 yesterday. It was a blast! If you haven't practiced these lately give it a try. You'll stay sharp and have fun doing it.

 

[jmp470]

Morne, Did you turn off the engine?

 

[Morne]

Morne, Did you turn off the engine?

See the (simulated) part in my post? That would be a no. Maybe I am not as brave as the OP.