DC FRZ Bust...

astanley

astanley

En-Route
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
3,391
Location
EGGX <-> CZQX
Display Name
Display name:
Andrew Stanley
Real problem is overreaction by law enforcement and those cowards in the Congress.
 
steingar said:
Real problem is overreaction by law enforcement and those cowards in the Congress.
Click to expand...

Anyone hear the plane type? The mighty C-150 have Congresscritters shaking in their boots yet again?
 
This confuses me. Is this an FRZ or ADIZ bust? If it's and ADIZ bust, then that makes some more sense (although the F-16s are definitely overkill for a Cessna 180), but to get to the FRZ you either need to descend from FL180+ (which means you're talking to ATC or are blatantly breaking the rules) or you need to go through the ADIZ (which means you're talking to ATC or are blatantly breaking the rules, and probably already have F-16s after you). Furthermore, he's going through class B airspace. I'm guessing it's an ADIZ bust.

Pilots should be able to stay clear of airspace without issue. If they have issues with it, they should stay away. That said, this airspace restriction should not exist, so it should never have been an issue to begin with, other than whatever applicable class B airspace restrictions exist.

/beating dead horse
 
JeffDG said:
Anyone hear the plane type? The mighty C-150 have Congresscritters shaking in their boots yet again?
Click to expand...

I thought it was a Cessna 180, but...

Cessna.jpg
 
We need as many of these violations as possible, with the cowards on capitol hill running around screaming so that people can vote the bums out and we can finally rid ourselves of the mess that is the DC ADIZ
 
I hate to say this and I might just be paraniod, BUT. Has anyone else thought that the stunts pulled lately like the middleeastern guy from canada, the plane crashing into the playground in Phoenix and now this look coinsidental and maybe staged so the current administration can cram SD-08F down our throats and sink GA..:nono::confused::confused::yikes: ????
 
dmccormack said:
After you....
Click to expand...

I still like the idea someone proposed where we all get together and bust the ADIZ in one giant convoy....

It'll blow people's minds that that many pilots can safely navigate Washington D.C. and not cause any damage.

Of course, its a pipe dream. The government has us too afraid.
 
Has anyone else thought that the stunts pulled lately ... look coinsidental and maybe staged so the current administration can cram SD-08F down our throats and sink GA..:nono::confused::confused::yikes: ????
Click to expand...
That's a nice thought, but the reality is that we, as a group, are fairly incompetent. There's no need to stage our crashes, we've been performing them quite nicely on our own, at a rate of about 3 or 4 per day, for years now.

And busting the airspace around DC is a routine occurrence. It only gets news coverage if the dumbass gets close enough to DC to set off evacuations.
-harry
 
I've had the thought of a massive act of civil disobedience for years. A bevy of aircraft flying in formation as to spell out "We love the USA" at 90 knots right over the Capitol and White House.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This confuses me. Is this an FRZ or ADIZ bust?
Click to expand...
Can't be an ADIZ bust -- there's no more ADIZ. But it could involve a SFRA bust.
If it's and ADIZ bust, then that makes some more sense (although the F-16s are definitely overkill for a Cessna 180), but to get to the FRZ you either need to descend from FL180+ (which means you're talking to ATC or are blatantly breaking the rules) or you need to go through the ADIZ (which means you're talking to ATC or are blatantly breaking the rules, and probably already have F-16s after you).
Click to expand...
They don't usually have the interceptors on you immediately upon entering the SFRA 30-mile ring. Only when you continue in towards the FRZ without responding or reacting do they actually intercept you.
Furthermore, he's going through class B airspace. I'm guessing it's an ADIZ bust.
Click to expand...
Depending on your arrival direction, you may be in the SFRA before you're in the B-space, or you may enter the B-space first. As the news report says s/he entered from the northeast, s/he was probably in the B-space well before entering the SFRA 30-mile ring.
Pilots should be able to stay clear of airspace without issue.
Click to expand...
From your mouth to God's ears. Unfortunately, there are too many numbskulls out there who just don't know what they're doing. If you know them, get them to get some recurrent training or else do what you can to keep them from flying and causing more problems for the rest of us.
 
steingar said:
I've had the thought of a massive act of civil disobedience for years. A bevy of aircraft flying in formation as to spell out "We love the USA" at 90 knots right over the Capitol and White House.
Click to expand...
Believe me, folks -- they really can muster up the manpower to locate and arrest just about everyone involved in a stunt like that. And you can be sure that the response from Capitol Hill and the public would be nothing we'd like.
 
Ron Levy said:
Believe me, folks -- they really can muster up the manpower to locate and arrest just about everyone involved in a stunt like that. And you can be sure that the response from Capitol Hill and the public would be nothing we'd like.
Click to expand...

My sincere hope was that this "plan" was posted purely in jest.

Face it, we are outnumbered and the only way to keep whatever freedom we have left is to police our own ranks.
 
You're gonna love this:
"It was just a navigation mistake, the GPS went and the pilot got confused," [airport manager Gil] Bauserman said in an interview with The Associated Press.
Click to expand...
:mad2:
 
Ron Levy said:
You're gonna love this:
:mad2:
Click to expand...


I fly in the SFRA all the time and I have flown nearly 700 within the SFRA without GPS with no troube.
But if your flying through the "corridor" which is a narrow bit of airspace with no wiggle room and you dont know the area, Its fairly easy to clip the FRZ by accident. I dont think that the guy was making a dash for capitol hill and the P-56 area. He probably just scraped the FRZ and as usual, Homeland security kicked in to do what it does best... Over react!

I was in the air when it happened coming back with the student, the airways were all abuzz about it.

I like the idea of the fly in tho. Kind of like that guy who landed in red square. We can all fly low over the potomac and land on the grass of the national mall!
(for any FBI who might be reading this, I meant that as a joke!)
 
...He probably just scraped the FRZ and as usual, Homeland security kicked in to do what it does best... Over react!...
Click to expand...
It seems highly unlikely to me that the pilot was properly following ADIZ procedures, and thus in contact with ATC. They don't launch F-16s for a cooperative pilot in contact with ATC who nicks the FRZ.
-harry
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This confuses me. Is this an FRZ or ADIZ bust? If it's and ADIZ bust, then that makes some more sense (although the F-16s are definitely overkill for a Cessna 180), but to get to the FRZ you either need to descend from FL180+ (which means you're talking to ATC or are blatantly breaking the rules) or you need to go through the ADIZ (which means you're talking to ATC or are blatantly breaking the rules, and probably already have F-16s after you). Furthermore, he's going through class B airspace. I'm guessing it's an ADIZ bust.
Click to expand...

So I've been casually studying again, and I thought the ADIZ went around the country, but SFAR 94 created a FRZ of 15nm in diameter around DC? There's a 30nm ring that you have to identify yourself in, and if you don't, and bust the FRZ, they come after you.

Please don't tell me I've been reading outdated stuff :(

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
astanley said:
So I've been casually studying again, and I thought the ADIZ went around the country, but SFAR 94 created a FRZ of 15nm in diameter around DC? There's a 30nm ring that you have to identify yourself in, and if you don't, and bust the FRZ, they come after you.

Please don't tell me I've been reading outdated stuff :(

Cheers,

-Andrew
Click to expand...

no youre correct, which is one of the reasons i think that the changed the name of the DC ADIZ airspace around washington to the new term "SFRA" (Special Flight Rules Area)
 
For those unfamiliar with the rules around the DC area, please, please, please go to http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_catalog.aspx?categoryId=11 and take the "Navigating the DC Special Flight Rules Area (SFRA)" course, or at least go to the FAR's and see the new Part 93 Subpart V--WASHINGTON, DC METROPOLITAN AREA SPECIAL FLIGHT RULES AREA (sorry, Part 93 isn't in your standard FAR/AIM book -- gotta go on-line) and read sections 93.331 et seq.
 
Thanks Ron, My husband and I both are going to take the course. Better safe than sorry. BTW I have a question: When you file do you file an IFR flight plan? or a SFRA/ADIZ flight plan, or am being too technical?
 
captvikki said:
Thanks Ron, My husband and I both are going to take the course. Better safe than sorry. BTW I have a question: When you file do you file an IFR flight plan? or a SFRA/ADIZ flight plan, or am being too technical?
Click to expand...

If you file a IFR flight plan then you don't need a sfra/adiz flight plan but you still can't go into the FRZ without special permission. For those of us here in the badlands we file a sfra flight plan to get in or out vfr.
 
captvikki said:
Thanks Ron, My husband and I both are going to take the course. Better safe than sorry. BTW I have a question: When you file do you file an IFR flight plan? or a SFRA/ADIZ flight plan, or am being too technical?
Click to expand...

When you call to file use this number: 1-866-225-7410

that number is dedicated to the SFRA. Tell them that you want to file an SFRA flight plan. And they will walk you thru it, its very similar to filing an IFR.
 
Hmm, I just looked at a sectional for the area....I'm actually going to change my opinion.

The SFRA is MUCH smaller than the ADIZ was. This is actually almost acceptable. Its a slap in the face to call GA a threat that requires any kind of SFRA there, but hell, we have similar restrictions around the Grand Canyon, and people deal with that....
 
SkyHog said:
Hmm, I just looked at a sectional for the area....I'm actually going to change my opinion.

The SFRA is MUCH smaller than the ADIZ was. This is actually almost acceptable. Its a slap in the face to call GA a threat that requires any kind of SFRA there, but hell, we have similar restrictions around the Grand Canyon, and people deal with that....
Click to expand...

The ADIZ used to conform to the BRAVO airspace of IAD, BWI and DCA. A couple of years ago they changed it to be the 30NM radius that it is today.

The report said that he entered from the northeast... I wonder how far Northeast that they had to intercept him and bring him all the way to Indian Head, MD...
 
This was left in the comments section of Boston.com's website:

"If in doubt, PANIC!"
 
By the way, it was a mighty Piper Tri Pacer(sp?), according to the AP writer who also wrote that the pilot was questioned in "one of the hangers." I wonder if he was within the pilot's pants or coat.

HR
 
I hate to sound overly harsh but, honestly, I can't believe after all these years that anyone is still ignorant of the DC ADIZ or that their navigation skills aren't proficient enough to avoid it. Either way, they should be grounded for a long, long time.
 
Bill Wales(the pilot) is based at Twitchell's Airport up here, where I'm taking my plane tomorrow for them to do their eighth Annual on her. My instructor, one of the airport owners, was just on the 11:00 news and indicated that he firmly believes it was an accidental occurrence, in view of Bill's flying history.

HR
 
As John said, other than for the Maryland 3 airports inside the FRZ, if you're IFR, you file a regular IFR flight plan, and if you're VFR, you file a DC SFRA flight plan. Either way, unless you have the special FRZ authorization, you stay out of the FRZ. That won't be a problem IFR as ATC won't send you in there, but VFR, you get awfully close going through the Fort Meade Gap going from Annapolis to Gaitherburg.
 
BenZwebner said:
When you call to file use this number: 1-866-225-7410. that number is dedicated to the SFRA.
Click to expand...
That's the direct number to Leesburg AFSS, not a SFRA line. It's used to file FRZ flight plans which must be filed with Leesburg. If you're not one of the chosen few authorized to go to the Maryland 3, you have no need for that number for SFRA operations -- you can file a DC SFRA flight plan with any AFSS or DUATS. And if you're not going into the FRZ, please don't use that line, as it's hard enough to get through to Leesburg for FRZ operations as it is.
 
astanley said:
So I've been casually studying again, and I thought the ADIZ went around the country, but SFAR 94 created a FRZ of 15nm in diameter around DC? There's a 30nm ring that you have to identify yourself in, and if you don't, and bust the FRZ, they come after you.

Please don't tell me I've been reading outdated stuff :(
Click to expand...

Nah, this is my fault for using the wrong terminology. What used to be the DC ADIZ is now the SFRA, as Ron pointed out.

Me in 50 years: "When I started flying it was the DC ADIZ and we liked it that way! Actually we hated it. We still hate it! Now get off my lawn!"
 
SkyHog said:
The SFRA is MUCH smaller than the ADIZ was. This is actually almost acceptable. Its a slap in the face to call GA a threat that requires any kind of SFRA there, but hell, we have similar restrictions around the Grand Canyon, and people deal with that....
Click to expand...

No Nick, not even close to acceptable. The SFRA is a massive pain in the tookus for ANYONE who wants to do even pattern work within its boundaries. It's a needless hassle. The FRZ is even more ridiculous, with the restrictions on ops into/from those 3 airports. And, to add one more bullet to the chamber of the regulatory authorities, now you have to take the FAA course if you plan to fly VFR within (I think) 60mi of the SFRA. Yeah - even if you miss it by 50 country miles and you haven't taken the FAA course and some jerkoff FAA Designated Gestapo Agent decides to run you through the wringer, you're in trouble.

All this for what? To stop vehicles with the destructive power only slightly larger than an angry gnat from using our United States airspace, while any keffiyah-wearing Koran-chanting terrorist can rent, drive and park a Ryder truck chock full of high-explosives within leveling distance of your favorite DC target?

No, not acceptable. And what's truly frustrating? Nobody in goverment cares. A whit. Freedom, RIP.
 
As a GA pilot and one of those people who got to watch the scopes for ADIZ violators for from 2005 to 2007, I can say with authority - Harry is right. We crash three or four times per day on our own, and I've personally - myself - witnessed as many as 23 ADIZ violations in less than 10 hours by VFR only pilots flying bug-smashers. Day-VFR in the DC area is a disaster for GA everyday, it's a comedy of airspace violations. I wish they would open the facility so you could watch pilot after pilot navigate, and violate over and over and over again.

As a collection of pilots, we could figure out where we were going perhaps the Government wouldn't have to tell us where we can't go. One day, as a group we'll learn that we're our own worst enemy.

By the way, the cumulative number of GA incursions into the ADIZ in 2006 was Four Thousand Seven Hundred and change. I've heard abosolutely every excuse in the book. I'm bored with it, fact is, collectively - we apparently can't navigate.

Fly safe,
Michael
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top