DC ADIZ Change coming?

Greebo

N9017H - C172M (1976)
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Retired Evil Overlord
Maybe! The President and Treasurer of our flying club visited Potomac TRACON recently and sent out this encouraging bit of info in an email to the members:

Here's a few of the comments (omitted) and I walked away with after our visit
Saturday.

1. Although no official announcement was made, it appears that the ADIZ will be
reduced in size soon. Most likely the "ears"-the NE and NW corners will shrink.
Good news for us at MTN!
Lets hope!
 
Maybe! The President and Treasurer of our flying club visited Potomac TRACON recently and sent out this encouraging bit of info in an email to the members:

Lets hope!

Let's hope that idjuts like Hayden Schaffer and Troy Martin stay on the ground for a while. All it takes is one incursion like the one that they made and the ADIZ will be around for a while.
 
WHo are you going to listen to, AOPA or my anonymously quoted email, HUH???
 
Let's hope there isn't "another shoe" to drop at the same time.
 
Let's hope there isn't "another shoe" to drop at the same time.
Well, while there may be rejoicing at MTN for the prospect of being freed from the shackles of the mouse ears, there's much gnashing of teeth going on deeper inside the bowels of the ADIZ, where one can hear from reputable sources rumors of a plan to make procedures within the new "rounder" ADIZ more burdensome, approaching something similar to surface area class B.
-harry
 
Well, while there may be rejoicing at MTN for the prospect of being freed from the shackles of the mouse ears, there's much gnashing of teeth going on deeper inside the bowels of the ADIZ, where one can hear from reputable sources rumors of a plan to make procedures within the new "rounder" ADIZ more burdensome, approaching something similar to surface area class B.
Not sure how much more "burdensome" that would be -- you already have to be talking to ATC and squawking, and get a code before takeoff, so the only folks who would have an additional burden would be the controllers who'd have to clear you and provide separation. That said, I can definitely see strong opposition from Potomac TRACON unless they get more bodies to sit at scopes.
 
Not sure how much more "burdensome" that would be -- you already have to be talking to ATC and squawking, and get a code before takeoff, so the only folks who would have an additional burden would be the controllers who'd have to clear you and provide separation. That said, I can definitely see strong opposition from Potomac TRACON unless they get more bodies to sit at scopes.

Curious (I don't know the answer since I don't fly there), but can they currently say "Remain clear of the ADIZ" to someone who has done everything they asked?

If they can't, then being like a surface Class B would probably change that.
 
Curious (I don't know the answer since I don't fly there), but can they currently say "Remain clear of the ADIZ" to someone who has done everything they asked?
Effectively, yes -- if they're buried when you call for your code to get in, they just tell you to stand by until they get back to you, and then you have to remain clear until you have your code and a "transponder observed." Doesn't happen a whole lot unless it's a sunny weekend day with a zillion folks returning to Freeway/Annapolis/Gaithersburg/etc from the practice area, but it does happen.
 
...so the only folks who would have an additional burden would be the controllers who'd have to clear you and provide separation.
Well, that's really the "question", in my mind, namely whether there would be an implication of "separation". If so, then how would that impact departures from a non-towered airport? Do we end up with IFR-style "one in, one out" operations, delayed by the time it takes a departure to reach radar contact?

Even if separation isn't provided, it is reputed to mean the end of "dedicated ADIZ positions", like 126.75, where a controller does nothing but handle ADIZ traffic.

To answer another poster, controllers have no problem refusing you entry if they're busy. A couple weekends ago I got a "try back in 15 minutes" for an ADIZ entry near MRB, just to get into the ADIZ below class Bravo, as the controller was busy with Dulles arrivals. I just circumnavigated the ADIZ a bit, and entered from another sector.
-harry
 
When we have the facts, I'll continue this discussion. Until then, I will not engage further in pure speculation.
 
Even AOPA's site insinuates that Boyer is not optimistic that any change is coming....something about getting a dime for every time he's heard a similar rumor...

Might be best Ron, for all of us, actually.
 
Ummm, I got some bad news for you ... that ADIZ is likely never, ever going away.

Let's hope that idjuts like Hayden Schaffer and Troy Martin stay on the ground for a while. All it takes is one incursion like the one that they made and the ADIZ will be around for a while.
 
...something about getting a dime for every time he's heard a similar rumor...
Maybe I'm a cynic, but I sort of read into this comment that Phil was trying to downplay the fact that he first learned about this from the members.

In any case, it's on the "reputable" end of the rumor scale. The basis for this rumor is a manager from Potomac Tracon passing around a copy of the proposal to local pilots at a "visit the Tracon" event. And, yes, they (ATC) are not happy about it. Of course, they also mentioned that this has been a moving target, so there's no guarantee that the final "thing" will look like the current proposal.

There's an account here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dcpilots/message/12487
-harry
 
No, I moved outta there. But fiddle me this. We've given some GS whatever geeks in some basement hellhole in DC control over what is arguably the most valuable airspace in the world. The only way you are going to get them to give it up is to trade them something else in return (or else there isn't any reason for them to remain the GS whatever geek they are in whatever hellhole they occupy ... it's a survival thing, how DC works)

Just -what- are we going to give them? Have you ever seen the gvmt give up control of something once they got it?

You plannin' sumpten?? :D:D;);)
 
Well, lets put it this way then. It will be there long enough to close Suburban, College Park, Haysfield, Lee, Hyde and probably Potomac. That will pretty much make Suburban Maryland a GA free zone.

That's what they said about the red scare. Never is a long time.
 
My new VA plates. IH8ADIZ.

Anyone think they'll ever open DCA to GA agian??
 
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ANd you and all your passengers are pre-screened by the TSA, and you stop at one of the gateway airports to be searched (people and aircraft) and ..... you pay for all of this.

It is open to GA, as long as you have a reservation and law enforcement on board. :vomit:
 
Passed on to me, from the Montgomery County Airport Association:

Last, but certainly not least, we are pleased to report to you that we have received confirmation from an informed and reliable source that the upcoming ADIZ redesign will NOT require pilots operating into or out of GAI to obtain an air traffic clearance. This possibility, leaked by air traffic controllers at the April 7 "Operation Raincheck" tour of the Potomac Tracon, sent shivers down our collective spines as we envisioned VFR pilots idling endlessly on the ground waiting for an IFR-like departure release.

The source confirmed that, pending final signoffs, the new ADIZ will be a 30-nm ring around the DCA Vortac and that pilots operating into or out of GAI will need to file the same ADIZ flight plan that they do now, and contact Clearance Delivery on the ground outbound or Potomac Approach in the air inbound to activate the flight plan and receive a unique transponder code.

What's new is that instead of hearing "transponder observed" or "beacon code observed" when checking in with Potomac Approach, pilots will hear "radar contact" and will be provided with what is commonly known as "flight following" services as defined in the FAR/AIM Pilot Controller Glossary as "radar monitoring." Radar monitoring is defined as “[t]he radar flight-following of aircraft, whose primary navigation is being performed by the pilot, to observe and note deviations from its authorized flight path, airway, or route.”

According to the source, air traffic controllers will be required to provide all VFR aircraft inside the ADIZ with traffic advisories and safety alerts but not the separation services that come with a Class B clearance. While it is still every pilot's responsibility to see and avoid other aircraft, this new measure seems to address one of the pilot community's principal early concerns with the ADIZ -- that VFR aircraft inside the ADIZ are placed at a higher risk of mid-air collision than those outside the ADIZ.

When asked how the FAA and the controllers at the Tracon plan to handle this increased workload and responsibility, the source said that the FAA is in the process of redrawing the Chesapeake sector airspace so that some controllers will only handle VFR/ADIZ traffic and others will only handle IFR traffic. Additional stations would be created to handle Clearance Delivery calls, and new frequencies will be added to contact Potomac Approach from the air when approaching the ADIZ. Additionally, controllers will have performance standards for VFR/ADIZ traffic just as they now are held accountable for the handling of IFR traffic. We do not know any specifics beyond this general plan of action.

Many of us have wondered whether GAI might be offered a "cut-out" or "corridor" for ingress and egress similar to that which is proposed for Leesburg Airport in Virginia. Apparently that this is not going to happen unless GAI gets a control tower or some other to-be-determined on-site human monitoring. The MCRA has expressed an interest in pursuing this option, but it is still too early to know what we might get or when we might get it.

The new procedures will be issued via Notam in advance of the final FAA rule, so that any operational kinks can be worked out before the final rule is issued. This revised Notam is expected to be issued within the next few months, and will be charted.

We hope that this email provides you with some relief that our situation at GAI may not be as grave as we have thought. However, please know that MCAA will continue to follow this issue very closely and keep you, our members, informed.

Fly safely,

Your MCAA Board of Directors/

Regards,
Joe
 
Sounds to me like more delays will be in order....
 
Sounds to me like more delays will be in order....
Except that a lot of airspace currently included in the ADIZ is going to be outside the modified one, including Martin State, Bay Bridge, Kentmoor, Upperville, and Airlie airports, while no new airports are included. That should reduce a lot of demand.
 
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