Damaged flap ... what would you have done?

Eagle I

Eagle I

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jan 30, 2012
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Display name:
Kat
So today I found myself in kind of an odd situation. My partner and I were passengers on a United flight from Chicago to Boston, seated over the right wing. As the flight was still boarding, I looked out and noticed that the trailing edge flap had what looked like a chunk missing. I would say the missing piece was about 4 by 4 inches, although it wasn't entirely square in shape. I took a photo of it, and flagged down a flight attendant to show her. At first she said she thought it was supposed to be that way, but then to her credit, she looked on the other side of the plane and realized that what I was seeing was not normal. She looked a bit concerned herself, and said she'd go get her cell phone so that she could get a photo and show the captain. In the meantime, a maintenance guy came aboard to fix the light over the aisle seat in our row. So we decided to mention the flap damage to him. He completely dismissed it with some idiotic explanation to the effect that the wing was designed that way because of the way the engine was mounted. Clearly he hadn't even looked to see what we were talking about. So then the flight attendant returned, had me take a photo using her iPhone, then she went up to the cockpit with it. We watched her just to make sure she wasn't just blowing our concern off. Next thing we know, one of the pilots was out on the tarmac with the maintenance guy, manual of some sort in hand, looking up at the damage with a flashlight. I thought for sure the flight would be canceled. But no, soon we were pushing away from the gate, and the flight attendant came back to tell us the captain assured her it was safe. I guess I felt better that he was at least aware of the situation. Had no one come to even look, had our concerns just been summarily dismissed, I think we would have elected to get off the plane. Still, this incident has bothered me. I know there's a lot of expertise on this site. Was I overreacting? Or was the flight crew being too dismissive of the damage? I'll attempt to post a couple of photos.
 

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I would certainly use that to finagle the flight crew of a few free drinks. Failing that, if the entire flight crew took notice of it and elected to continue on, either you are making a big deal out of nothing, or your card has come up.

Either way, down a few free drinks. Or pay for them. If you got off the plane you would more than likely succumb to a terrorist bomb attack on the terminal.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I would certainly use that to finagle the flight crew of a few free drinks. Failing that, if the entire flight crew took notice of it and elected to continue on, either you are making a big deal out of nothing, or your card has come up.

Either way, down a few free drinks. Or pay for them. If you got off the plane you would more than likely succumb to a terrorist bomb attack on the terminal.
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Ha, we couldn't even finagle free pretzels out of this crew!
 
Can't really tell from the pictures but the "damage" certainly looks symmetrical. My guess is that there was some damage that was "dressed". There is most likely a logbook entry that states that the damage has been addressed and must have a more permanent fix at some time in the not too distant future.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Can't really tell from the pictures but the "damage" certainly looks symmetrical. My guess is that there was some damage that was "dressed". There is most likely a logbook entry that states that the damage has been addressed and must have a more permanent fix at some time in the not too distant future.
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Thanks, that makes sense.
 
Sure looks like perhaps a lightning strike took out a piece which then was symmetrically repaired so there was no added drag or other negative aerodynamic affect . . .
 
The location is such that it would have had no effect on the operation of the flap, ( since it was exposed when the assembly was fully retracted ), and it does look like it had been dressed in some fashion. You were right to bring it to the crew's attention IMHO.
 
I think all of your actions, including posting here what you saw along with pictures was just fine.

I don't think you should have named the airline though. Doesn't add to the story and I don't think they did anything wrong.
 
Yea they may have been a bit dismissive of you, probably from all the BS that comes from passengers, you get to a point where your just like..."yea, yea!" After you hear them say things like, "Hey there is a piston hanging out of your engine!" You don't tend to listen very much. I have to agree that it looks scalloped out, like it was damage that was addressed until they can fix it permanently. No issues with bringing it up if you wanted to know.
 
Yes, you are overreacting.

Jets are allowed to fly with all sorts of things either broken, missing or damaged. We have minimum equipment lists, configuration deviation lists, known damage lists and engineering orders. Without consulting these and the aircraft logbook, a mechanic wouldn't know if it was new damage or not. Looking at your pictures, the first thing that jumps out are the clean edges of the "damage".








Eagle I said:
So today I found myself in kind of an odd situation. My partner and I were passengers on a United flight from Chicago to Boston, seated over the right wing. As the flight was still boarding, I looked out and noticed that the trailing edge flap had what looked like a chunk missing. I would say the missing piece was about 4 by 4 inches, although it wasn't entirely square in shape. I took a photo of it, and flagged down a flight attendant to show her. At first she said she thought it was supposed to be that way, but then to her credit, she looked on the other side of the plane and realized that what I was seeing was not normal. She looked a bit concerned herself, and said she'd go get her cell phone so that she could get a photo and show the captain. In the meantime, a maintenance guy came aboard to fix the light over the aisle seat in our row. So we decided to mention the flap damage to him. He completely dismissed it with some idiotic explanation to the effect that the wing was designed that way because of the way the engine was mounted. Clearly he hadn't even looked to see what we were talking about. So then the flight attendant returned, had me take a photo using her iPhone, then she went up to the cockpit with it. We watched her just to make sure she wasn't just blowing our concern off. Next thing we know, one of the pilots was out on the tarmac with the maintenance guy, manual of some sort in hand, looking up at the damage with a flashlight. I thought for sure the flight would be canceled. But no, soon we were pushing away from the gate, and the flight attendant came back to tell us the captain assured her it was safe. I guess I felt better that he was at least aware of the situation. Had no one come to even look, had our concerns just been summarily dismissed, I think we would have elected to get off the plane. Still, this incident has bothered me. I know there's a lot of expertise on this site. Was I overreacting? Or was the flight crew being too dismissive of the damage? I'll attempt to post a couple of photos.
Click to expand...
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Can't really tell from the pictures but the "damage" certainly looks symmetrical. My guess is that there was some damage that was "dressed". There is most likely a logbook entry that states that the damage has been addressed and must have a more permanent fix at some time in the not too distant future.
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There appears to be rivets in the shape outboard of the edge of the "problem" . Looks like a field repair until they get this bad boy in for maintenance.

Maybe this is how they cure a right heavy wing? :lol:
 
Geico story time. :D

Back in another life I was a parts expeditor for an aerospace company. I literally kept a travel bag under my desk and traveled all over the country to pick up and track parts. Anyway, on one flight I noticed oil coming out of the starboard engine. :eek: I quietly notified the flight attendant and she got the flight engineer. He came to my seat, looked at the leak ( we are at 32,000 MSL) and calmly said; " Looks like we have enough oil in there to leak out.", :hairraise: and he walked back up to the cockpit.

:lol:
 
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Problem #1: #2 Propeller seeping prop fluid
Solution #1: #2 Propeller seepage normal
Problem #2: #1, #3, and #4 propellers lack normal seepage
 
slacktide said:
It's in the SRM. Temporary repair for damage to the corner of the flap due to hot engine exhaust impingement.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...or-handwritten-note-on-damaged-wing-of-plane/
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First to the OP.....

I would have mentioned it to the flight crew too..

My second question would be................... What idiotic group of engineers designing a flap that obviously is in the flow of the hot engine exhaust not spec out Titanium or Inconel for that section of flap.:dunno::mad2:
 
N801BH said:
My second question would be................... What idiotic group of engineers designing a flap that obviously is in the flow of the hot engine exhaust not spec out Titanium or Inconel for that section of flap.:dunno::mad2:
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Looks like a 7-3 to me. If so I would say its been a non-issue for many many many years. Im guessing you are assuming that whatever damaged that flap was from hot exhaust? Not likely.
 
N801BH said:
First to the OP.....

I would have mentioned it to the flight crew too..

My second question would be................... What idiotic group of engineers designing a flap that obviously is in the flow of the hot engine exhaust not spec out Titanium or Inconel for that section of flap.:dunno::mad2:
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I would imagine the picture in the OP isn't the only plane of that type. Perhaps there are others the OEM could reference and see if this single picture is in fact a design issue caused by flaps dipping into hot engine exhaust or a one off failure.

That was sarcasm because I can't believe you just called them an 'idiotic group of engineers' because one plane had one issue. Are you aware of a more systemic problem?
 
Captain said:
I would imagine the picture in the OP isn't the only plane of that type. Perhaps there are others the OEM could reference and see if this single picture is in fact a design issue caused by flaps dipping into hot engine exhaust or a one off failure.

That was sarcasm because I can't believe you just called them an 'idiotic group of engineers' because one plane had one issue. Are you aware of a more systemic problem?
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Good point Cap't...

The OP's pic shows a 37 or a 57 with blended winglets... Can you determine the OP's pic type of plane?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Different verbiage would have been better, like: "field repair approved by inspector... WO#xxx.xx" initialed, and a date.
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Agreed..... But.....

When a FAA licensed mechanic like -Matt-
CMEL CFI A&P IA, can view the pic and read the report and then still say

"Im guessing you are assuming that whatever damaged that flap was from hot exhaust? Not likely. "

is troubling... At least to me..
 
N801BH said:
Agreed..... But.....

When a FAA licensed mechanic like -Matt-
CMEL CFI A&P IA, can view the pic and read the report and then still say

"Im guessing you are assuming that whatever damaged that flap was from hot exhaust? Not likely. "

is troubling... At least to me..
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I viewed the pic and I did not read the report please don't make assumptions about me as I don't make them about you. I am not entirely familiar with the 7-3 so maybe they do have de-lam issues from heat fatigue. Point was that the 7-3 airframe engine combo has many millions of flight hours. While it is not a perfect airframe it has a very good record.
 
flyingmoose said:
I viewed the pic and I did not read the report please don't make assumptions about me as I don't make them about you. I am not entirely familiar with the 7-3 so maybe they do have de-lam issues from heat fatigue. Point was that the 7-3 airframe engine combo has many millions of flight hours. While it is not a perfect airframe it has a very good record.
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I assumed you read the report.....:rolleyes:
 
Never, ever take any kind of aircraft damage lightly. And never assume anything. It can kill you. Many years ago, I had a job as a ramp agent for a regional airline. We worked ATRs, EMB-120s etc. We were in the process of boarding up an ATR-72 when a passenger noticed something dripping from the left prop and told the agent working the flight. The crew was already onboard, so preflight had been accomplished. The agent called it in to operations who informed the pilots, who then took a closer look at the prop. The pilots decided to get maintenance out to look at it. Definite problem. Turns out a new hire cabin service agent had run his cabin service vehicle into the prop and didn't tell anybody about it, hoping that it would be alright. Well it was long way from alright. The damage to the composite prop wasn't easily noticed but was significant and the force applied to the prop had crushed a major seal where the prop connected to the prop hub. De-planed the paxs and grounded the airplane. No telling what might have happened if that pax had said nothing.
 
I was doing a pre-flight on Tuesday and I noticed there were 2 cracks in the trailing edge of the right flap.
I went back into the FBO and told the manager, who said the mechanic would be right out to look at it. True to her word, in the time it took me to walk back out, TWO mechanics were out there.
Drilling stop holes in the flap.
What the heck. I flew it anyway.
 
flyingmoose said:
Looks like a 7-3 to me. If so I would say its been a non-issue for many many many years. Im guessing you are assuming that whatever damaged that flap was from hot exhaust? Not likely.
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I assumed nothing. I read the service letter which introduced this repair, which was issued on Sept. 26 2008, and describes the mechanism by which damage occurs. (When the pilot operates the aircraft contrary to the FCOM, btw.)
 
OP here again. Just wanted to say thanks for all the comments and interesting anecdotes. If I've learned one thing, it's that one person's damage is another person's repair.:D I also wanted to say that I didn't mean to impugn the maintenance practices of the airline by mentioning the airline by name. I actually was impressed that the flight attendant followed up as she did, and that the captain looked into it. As I said originally, had my observations just been completely dismissed as "nothing to worry about," I might have been tempted to get off the plane. I might not be a mechanic, but I know when something doesn't look right.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Yes, you are overreacting.

Jets are allowed to fly with all sorts of things either broken, missing or damaged. We have minimum equipment lists, configuration deviation lists, known damage lists and engineering orders. Without consulting these and the aircraft logbook, a mechanic wouldn't know if it was new damage or not. Looking at your pictures, the first thing that jumps out are the clean edges of the "damage".
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And how does the passenger know that a) the pilot or other ground person saw or was aware of the damage, or b) that the item is on an MEL list.

So we just keep our mouths shut, the flap hinge breaks, the asymmetric lift causes LOC and every one dies - or - the pax speaks up and the crew comes back and says, yeah, we saw and its no problem. . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
.....So we just keep our mouths shut, the flap hinge breaks, the asymmetric lift causes LOC and every one dies - or - the pax speaks up and the crew comes back and says, yeah, we saw and its no problem. . . .
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Say something............ Better safe then sorry.....:yes::rolleyes:
 
Read the OP last couple of lines.

Still, this incident has bothered me. I know there's a lot of expertise on this site. Was I overreacting? Or was the flight crew being too dismissive of the damage? I'll attempt to post a couple of photos.

I never said the OP should not have said anything. What I am saying is that damage and/or missing parts could be completely safe. Transport category aircraft are designed to still fly if some things are broken or missing. The flight attendants won't know nor would the mechanic sent to fix something in the cabin. I think the crew handled the situation correctly. Passenger saw something, flight crew investigated and determined that the aircraft was still good to go.




comanchepilot said:
And how does the passenger know that a) the pilot or other ground person saw or was aware of the damage, or b) that the item is on an MEL list.

So we just keep our mouths shut, the flap hinge breaks, the asymmetric lift causes LOC and every one dies - or - the pax speaks up and the crew comes back and says, yeah, we saw and its no problem. . . .
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jonnyjetprop said:
Read the OP last couple of lines.

Still, this incident has bothered me. I know there's a lot of expertise on this site. Was I overreacting? Or was the flight crew being too dismissive of the damage? I'll attempt to post a couple of photos.

I never said the OP should not have said anything. What I am saying is that damage and/or missing parts could be completely safe. Transport category aircraft are designed to still fly if some things are broken or missing. The flight attendants won't know nor would the mechanic sent to fix something in the cabin. I think the crew handled the situation correctly. Passenger saw something, flight crew investigated and determined that the aircraft was still good to go.
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Challenger was brought down by a $.30 o-ring. Laws of physics don't care about the certification category. Either it's airworthy or not and the flying public hasn a right to question something they think is suspicious.

Problem is: would they have been detained and cited for causing a scene if they exercised the right to deplane if given a unsatisfactory answer :dunno:
:stirpot:
 
I was going home from Korea on a military charter DC-10 and noticed that an entire fairing was missing from one of the flap hinges on one wing. On the DC-10 this was not a small piece of metal but quite huge. I talked to the crew about it and they knew of it. Turns out it had fallen off on the trip over and they were cleared to fly it as is. Just added a bit more drag is what they told me. I never felt comfortable on a military charter...lowest bidder and all.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Challenger was brought down by a $.30 o-ring. Laws of physics don't care about the certification category. Either it's airworthy or not and the flying public hasn a right to question something they think is suspicious.

Problem is: would they have been detained and cited for causing a scene if they exercised the right to deplane if given a unsatisfactory answer :dunno:
:stirpot:
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Don't overstate it.

There is no way that O-ring was a 30 cent piece. It was a seal between segments of the shuttle's solid rocket boosters, 10s of feet long and using multiple layers. And there WAS a report of problems -- the Thiokol engineers responsible for the system called a no-go, and were overruled by their own management too focused on keeping the customer happy.

Completely different problem. The shuttle crew wasn't even told.

As for your problem, consider 14 CFR 91.3(a).

The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
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That regulation is a two-edged sword. The PIC decides whether or not to open the door.

Think of the other side -- if you were in the front of the plane, would you necessarily want a panicked passenger messing with the doors? A fall from an airliner door is always serious, and can be fatal, and an unnecessary slide deployment will ground the aircraft even if the original problem was already dealt with.

The correct thing to do is notify and let the PIC make the decisions. Exactly what the OP did.
 
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Witmo said:
I was going home from Korea on a military charter DC-10 and noticed that an entire fairing was missing from one of the flap hinges on one wing. On the DC-10 this was not a small piece of metal but quite huge. I talked to the crew about it and they knew of it. Turns out it had fallen off on the trip over and they were cleared to fly it as is. Just added a bit more drag is what they told me. I never felt comfortable on a military charter...lowest bidder and all.
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Flap fairings are covered under the CDL (configuration deviation list).
 
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