Cutting down on crosswind component

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I'm trying to visualize how you get both mains solidly planted on the runway in a crosswind wheel landing? Assuming you use the sideslip method you'll have the upwind wheel on the runway while the downwind wheel is still in the air

You touch down and hold the tail up. I don't see how you could get the downwind wheel to remain in the air.

 

[N5922S]

Relative wind changes vector with speed. It's irrelevant to the issue since as was pointed out above, you still have to slow through that speed anyway. Me Personall, I drag all the flaps I can and am touching down as slow as I can regardless what the wind is doing. If I can't keep it aligned with the runway well enough to keep it on, I'm going to line up with some other surface to land on.

I'm glad to hear someone else say that. Having flown my DA20 nearly 2000 hours at an airport with notorious crosswinds (KJSO), I've tried every configuration except landing upside down and find that full flaps and an extra few knots, crab as necessary until +10' works best for me. YMMV

FWIW, crosswind takeoffs bother me much more.

 

[Henning]

I'm glad to hear someone else say that. Having flown my DA20 nearly 2000 hours at an airport with notorious crosswinds (KJSO), I've tried every configuration except landing upside down and find that full flaps and an extra few knots, crab as necessary until +10' works best for me. YMMV

FWIW, crosswind takeoffs bother me much more.

It's the castering nosewheel that you have to tag/drag brake at the beginning of take off that bugs me with any of the free castering nose wheel planes that annoys me.

 

[FastEddieB]

Your speed has nothing to do with the crosswind component, which is a function of the strength and direction of the wind.

Good catch and I stand corrected - it's a calculated value and the aircraft's speed does not enter into the calculation.

But my point was the crosswind component, whatever it is, becomes less of a factor at higher speeds, as the need for crosswind correction diminishes.

A 20k direct crosswind may barely ruffle a jet's feathers, while it may be a huge handful for a Light Sport. One reason there are lots of accidents as pilots "step up" to much smaller and slower planes.

But thanks for keeping me on my toes!

 

[PaulS]

Good catch and I stand corrected - it's a calculated value and the aircraft's speed does not enter into the calculation.

But my point was the crosswind component, whatever it is, becomes less of a factor at higher speeds, as the need for crosswind correction diminishes.

A 20k direct crosswind may barely ruffle a jet's feathers, while it may be a huge handful for a Light Sport. One reason there are lots of accidents as pilots "step up" to much smaller and slower planes.

But thanks for keeping me on my toes!

Not so much for you, I knew what you were trying to get at, but just in case some one else didn't understand. In the end you still have to slow down and you still have to deal with the crosswind, even on the ground, especially in small ac, if someone lets their guard down and they may get ***** slapped.

 

[gitmo234]

I liked the video, content and quality. Seems like an interesting technique as well. That airplane of yours has great views.

I havent read all the responses, but the first few seem to check most of the boxes for the responses you'll get regardless of the topic. Have we gotten the requisite "This is illegal and you should have your ticket pulled!!!!! I know someone who did!" post?

 

[peerlesscowboy]

..... I don't see how you could get the downwind wheel to remain in the air.

Aileron into the wind.

 

[BillTIZ]

You both make a good point.

There is nothing specific in the regulations that would keep one from landing on a taxiway or ramp or even grass area at an non-towered airport.

But as food for thought...

Let's say the unexpected happens and an accident happened.

Which would be easier to defend from a charge of "Careless of Reckless"...

"I was landing on RWY27 and lost control."

...or...

"I chose to land on a taxiway and lost control."

Just wonder if anyone has ever heard of a charge stemming from the latter?

Not implying that this sort of decision process could or should intrude on decision making. Again, just wondering.

Local Class D airport will respond when people ask to land on Taxiway H.
" Land at your own risk." And they will block the traffic landing in Rwy 12L&R.

If you land with no issues, no problems, it just goes in their daily log. If you have a problem and cannot stay on the narrow taxiway, then FSDO gets called.

Taxiway H is what is left of an old 3rd runway that would be used when the winds were 170-210 degrees.

Your options when winds are 180-190 30G+ are either a right 60-70 degree crosswind on Rwy 12 or a left 60-70 degree crosswind on Rwy 25. Or ask for taxiway H. Only the locals know about H.

 

[RoscoeT]

Aileron into the wind.

Depends on the airplane. Some won't stay on one wheel for more than a moment in significant x-wind unless you really touch down way fast...no matter what you do with the ailerons.

 

[BillTIZ]

Home sweet home. After a crappy winter I'm looking forward to some sunny days!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfuPVDE7CY

Looks like a great place! Where is it?

 

[BillTIZ]

Depends on the airplane. Some won't stay on one wheel for more than a moment in significant x-wind unless you really touch down way fast...no matter what you do with the ailerons.

My standard for Xwind landings in the Pawnee. I much prefer wheel landings, first the upwind, then the downwind. Sometimes the tail gets down before the downwind main. Need to have the speed down or you'll be pushed sideways across the runway on the mains. To fast or gusty conditions and with the tail down too early and your flying again. The Pawnee has a powerful rudder.

 

[Stewartb]

Once I'm comfortable that I'm not going around, which is at the moment of touchdown when things are sporty, I retract flaps. That plants the wheels on the ground and drops the tail no matter how hard I try to hold it up. With three points on the ground and most of the lift potential killed I can stand on the brakes if I so choose. Crosswind landings are usually the shortest landings I do because I want to transition from a flying plane to a taxiing plane as quickly as possible. There's never any reason to drive down a runway with one wheel on unless you're doing some cool pilot demonstration. In a nasty wind all I want is to get down/get done and have a drink so I won't be tempted to go back up.

 

[FastEddieB]

Like landing at an angle to the runway, retracting flaps immediately after landing can be another tool in a pilot's toolkit to get maximum performance from his or her aircraft.

That said, 40 years ago I was taught never to touch anything until clear of the runway. And for 40 years and 6,700 hours I've strived never to do so. And landed pretty darn short when it was called for. And not noticed any tendency to baloon. And passed the same advice on to each of my students, especially since the Airplane Flying Handbook agrees.

In summary, both techniques can be handy skills to have. But a typical pilot may be able to fly an entire career without employing either.

 

[Stewartb]

A friend of mine was a career Air Force fighter pilot before he spent a career flying commercial airliners. He tells me stories about his fighter days and the things he used to do. Crazy. I tell him stories of STOL ops, ski flying, and float flying and he just shakes his head and tells me I'm crazy. For things like landing on a diagonal or dumping flaps at touchdown.... or never doing those things? Normal is what you're used to.

 

[RoscoeT]

Eddie - a little math on the video you posted. Below is an accurate representation of your landing angle across the runway. That's 4 degrees off the runway track. Let's say there was a 15KT wind blowing 90 degrees across the runway. Flying 4 degrees into the wind would reduce your x-wind component to 14.96 KT. These discussions come up quite a bit, but if you do the math, significant x-wind component reduction doesn't happen until you approach a 45 degree angle to the runway.

 

[PaulS]

Eddie - a little math on the video you posted. Below is an accurate representation of your landing angle across the runway. That's 4 degrees off the runway track. Let's say there was a 15KT wind blowing 90 degrees across the runway. Flying 4 degrees into the wind would reduce your x-wind component to 14.96 KT. These discussions come up quite a bit, but if you do the math, significant x-wind component reduction doesn't happen until you approach a 45 degree angle to the runway.

But wouldn't the crosswind component from a 45 degree offset wind be reduced by 5% with that 4 degrees?

 

[CharlieTango]

But wouldn't the crosswind component from a 45 degree offset wind be reduced by 5% with that 4 degrees?

A 5% reduction, say from 20kts to 19kts does not offset the risk of flirting with the runway edges both near and far plus loss of centerline aiding in judgement plus if things don't go too well finishing up with a downwind turn trying to avoid the runway edge.

 

[RoscoeT]

But wouldn't the crosswind component from a 45 degree offset wind be reduced by 5% with that 4 degrees?

More like 7.5%, but yes it gets increasingly better the closer the wind is aligned with the runway. A 15KT wind blowing 45 degrees to the runway is a 10.6KT x-wind component. Flying 4 degrees further into that wind would reduce that component to 9.8KT. Flying 4 degrees further into a 30 degree wind @ 15KT would reduce your component by 12.4%, from 7.5KT to 6.57KT. Still not a lot, and I've never met a wind blowing 30 degrees off the runway that I needed some sort of trick to handle safely.

I just don't think this is something 99% of pilots should consider as a helpful "trick" for dealing with x-wind. If you are in such a light, slow landing airplane that landing 4 degrees further into the wind makes a real difference, I'd say that you are flying in such strong wind that you could basically forget the x-wind, and fly directly into the wind for a virtual hover landing. Then good luck taxiing in.

 

[FastEddieB]

Eddie - a little math on the video you posted. Below is an accurate representation of your landing angle across the runway. That's 4 degrees off the runway track. Let's say there was a 15KT wind blowing 90 degrees across the runway. Flying 4 degrees into the wind would reduce your x-wind component to 14.96 KT. These discussions come up quite a bit, but if you do the math, significant x-wind component reduction doesn't happen until you approach a 45 degree angle to the runway.

Cool math exercise - thanks!

On the rare cases I've tried it, it seemed to help. "Confirmation bias"? Maybe.

I still think its interesting to watch the yaw string in my video. Through the landing process its blowing pretty much straight back. As soon as I turn to runway heading it blows clearly to the right, as the wind sock shows.

But, admittedly, maybe I got lucky. Ground friction often ameliorates the crosswind. Though I've done dozens of these over the years, this is the first one I've captured on video.

As a data point, on a trip to Page, AZ I got to use the technique 3 times: Moriarty, NM (as depicted already), Henrietta, OK (tumbleweed was blowing across the runway!), and Sedona, AZ. In each case the crosswind component was high and it seemed to help a lot. Remember, what may be a trivial help in a Mooney or a 747 may help a lot in a Light Sport landing at 39k.

But interesting discussion, nonetheless.

 

[gismo]

And 10 degrees would reduce the crosswind by about 1.5% if my trig serves me correctly.

And it will be less than that since you need to subtract the tire to tire distance from the runway width and add at least 100 ft to the landing distance for your roundout prior to touchdown.

Then you might consider that when the wind is strong enough to make you consider this (bad) idea it's usually gusty which generally means you won't be all that accurate with your touchdown point both laterally and longitudinally. Finally airplanes tend to turn into the wind as you slow down and since this method puts you close to the windward edge (and headed that way) when the weathervaning tendency is strongest. As a result you might find that staying on the runway becomes impossible at the last moment.

 

[Henning]

On a skinny runway, this is pretty minimal in benefit as a technique, if you are flying off an old SAC base runway, you have a lot more potential to work with.

 

[Kritchlow]

You know, I've made a couple small comments in this thread, but I gotta say this... No offense to those of you in favor of this practice, but I believe this is a poor technique procedure. I believe in the centerline, both on final and roll out. There is all sorts of room for error and problems here. Also, if you can't fly in the crosswind and handle it properly, you have no business flying that day. Take a few crosswind landing lessons. Once you get the hang of the cross control technique, it really does work quite well (except on the C750).

 

[asechrest]

Thanks for the video, Fast Eddie. I enjoyed it.

 

[FastEddieB]

Thanks for the video, Fast Eddie. I enjoyed it.

Thanks.

To those who are opposed to the technique, I seem to find some contradictory objections.

Some claim the angles involved are so small as to have a negligible effect.

Others warn that if misjudged, the swerve to realign with the runway could be hazardous, or the plane could simply run off the runway.

To the first, let me say I have found it helps "a little". And with a crosswind approaching the plane's demonstrated maximum crosswind component, that little bit can still be an aid to a successful crosswind landing.

To the second, at the very worst, a pilot misjudges and has to turn to realign with the runway. That would be a really small turn, and I can't see it being a problem to a competent pilot. Once turned, the plane is again aligned with the runway, and can continue with a normal crosswind landing. And at the worst worst, going around is always an option.

But a competent pilot should have a pretty good handle on landing distances and touch down points. For that pilot, this is just a normal crosswind landing, but one executed at an angle across the runway. I've done perhaps a dozen or two of these "in anger", and the outcomes were never in doubt, nor any increased hazard perceived.

Of course, if a pilot was never taught this, or ever practiced it, just the novelty of it may make it seem dangerous. I can only say that with experience, a landing like the one in my video really seems quite ordinary - IF you've been trained in it.

Assuming that it is a technique that some pilots do employ, and that it may in fact be very dangerous, can anyone point me to an accident report where this technique was a contributing factor? There may be some, but I can't recall any. Even if there are a few, and I am enlightened on their particulars, it's not like "normal" crosswind landings, where the pilot attempts to align with the runway centerline, never go astray. And in those, I can't help but wonder if the pilot had had a trick up his or her sleeve to minimize the crosswind component, things might have turned out better.

 

[Henning]

The only issue I have with using this type of approach is it is harder to judge whether I'll be able to hold the angle once on the runway. I know that if I can hold the angle in the air, I'll be able to control it on the ground. Then there is the effect of gear on inertia with a tricycle gear plane. The nice thing about tri gear is if you land in a crab, the geometry between the gear and CG will straighten the plane out into the direction of its inertia. In these events you are much better off having your inertia going down the runway.

All in all though, I don't think it's that big of an issue either way, if you are in control of the plane, it's not really a problem.