Customer got hit by a prop today.

Stevel said:
Tom, I am having a hard time finding your FAR reference. The online copy of the FAR that I have found is referenced as follows: 43.15(lower-case letter)(#). I read the whole thing, as it is short, but I'm still not clear on which portion of the FAR you were referring to as 43.15(2)-c.
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(c) Annual and 100-hour inspections. (1) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall use a checklist while performing the inspection. The checklist may be of the person's own design, one provided by the manufacturer of the equipment being inspected or one obtained from another source. This checklist must include the scope and detail of the items contained in appendix D to this part and paragraph (b) of this section.
 
FastEddieB said:
Only because he did not get decapitated.

Which he very well might have.
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As every one here insists the prop can be held by hand, by the time the second blade comes over the top the pressure has been relieved, it would be a rare occasion that you would be killed by it. It's a lot different than getting hit by one that is running where you have overlapping power strokes.
Witmo said:
There's nothing in all of Part 43 that absolves someone from taking precautions to prevent injury when conducting an inspection. Tom's reference to 43.15 is a feeble retort to the poster who quoted service bulletins which recommend holding the propeller during compression checks. Part 43.15 allows the inspector to develop and use his own checklist provided it meets the scope and detail of appendix d as a minimum. While Part 43 addresses what has to be inspected it doesn't address how to do so safely which the service bulletin addresses in its notes, warnings and cautions.
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So I guess you lock your customers in their car while you do compression checks.
 
Luigi said:
No, but perhaps you shouldn't be one either.
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When you don't want the responsibilities of the IA, don't knock the ones who do their job day in and day out. I've been in this industry for well over 50 years in one capacity or another, and have seen way more pilots kill them selves and others than any mechanic, So when you believe you are righteous and all self indulged, think again. we all make mistakes, even you.
 
I do believe I made a big mistake, thinking I could start this thread here in hopes someone would learn to stay away from propellers even when they are not running, even when they are being worked on they can bite. But those know alls will always place blame, and argue about legal action, thus destroying the learning opportunity for others.
perfectly normal for those to ruin the POA web site usefulness.
 
He was lucky, I know a guy where the prop cut 1/4 of the headshell away. And it was all his fault.

After checking compression and recording it at TDC, I usually measure it with the piston moving slowly up and down to see if there is blowby. Nor required by FAA but helpful.
 
Tom-D said:
Here is a question for the group. Would you volunteer to hold the prop mounted on a IO-540 when the TDC is at the 5 to 11 position?
Or would you rather allow the A&P to place the prop at TDC and get the hell out of the way?
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The 540 has the same force with one jug under pressure than a 360. But most of the time a longer prop. so easier to hold. Usually I open the tab for the air slowly, so its no big deal at all if you know what you are doing.
 
Witmo said:
The perfect way to end this thread. Let everyone decide for himself just what mistake
Tom made.
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Or what control I have over others in the hangar.
 
Thomas Dietrich said:
The 540 has the same force with one jug under pressure than a 360. But most of the time a longer prop. so easier to hold. Usually I open the tab for the air slowly, so its no big deal at all if you know what you are doing.
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yes they are the same cylinder and crank throw. we were talking the 0-300 vs the 0-540 which has a 1 inch larger bore than the 0-300.
  • Bore: 5.125 in (130.2 mm)
  • Stroke: 4.375 in (111.1 mm)
  • Displacement: 541.5 in³ (8.9 L)
 
Tom-D said:
When you don't want the responsibilities of the IA, don't knock the ones who do their job day in and day out. I've been in this industry for well over 50 years in one capacity or another, and have seen way more pilots kill them selves and others than any mechanic, So when you believe you are righteous and all self indulged, think again. we all make mistakes, even you.
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What BS! Circumlocution at it's finest! Fine accept the IA's responsibility and say you should have been more careful, sheesh!
 
Tom-D said:
(c) Annual and 100-hour inspections. (1) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall use a checklist while performing the inspection. The checklist may be of the person's own design, one provided by the manufacturer of the equipment being inspected or one obtained from another source. This checklist must include the scope and detail of the items contained in appendix D to this part and paragraph (b) of this section.
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That's fine. But, when you choose to use one of your own design and ignore manufacturers published warnings, you accept responsibility. Get that, Tom.
 
Tom-D said:
Your Honor, IF you saw a prop that was at TDC with pressure applied, would you touch it? specially when you knew the dangers involved?
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Just recieved a message from Shakespeare - 'Tom D dost protest too much, methinks!'
 
Tom-D said:
(c) Annual and 100-hour inspections. (1) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall use a checklist while performing the inspection. The checklist may be of the person's own design, one provided by the manufacturer of the equipment being inspected or one obtained from another source. This checklist must include the scope and detail of the items contained in appendix D to this part and paragraph (b) of this section.
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Thanks for pointing me to the specific passage. I would refer to that as 43.15 (c) (1), which was the reason that I was confused.
 
I am suprised this turned into such a mess of a thread.
 
GlennAB1 said:
That's fine. But, when you choose to use one of your own design and ignore manufacturers published warnings, you accept responsibility. Get that, Tom.
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Every one knows that, but how do you associate that with a customer grabbing a prop that he knew was under pressure? if he was thinking wouldn't you think he would have had me drop the pressure until he could get a good hold on the blade.
You seem pretty naive about what happens during a owner assisted annual inspection, these owners want to be involve. Does that make me responsible for every move they make in their own hangar? Me thinks not.
 
Thomas Dietrich said:
He was lucky, I know a guy where the prop cut 1/4 of the headshell away. And it was all his fault.

After checking compression and recording it at TDC, I usually measure it with the piston moving slowly up and down to see if there is blowby. Nor required by FAA but helpful.
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Ever notice how fast the effort increases the farther off TDC you go? When you do this, don't you always have good hold on the prop prior to adding the pressure slowly? ask your self is that what my customer did?
I some times move the prop off TDC too, just a little, to see what changes.
 
Just in case,,,, that anyone cares, there is only 2 times the A&P or anyone must follow the maintenance procedure given, 1 is in AD compliance. (either the AMOC or the AD its self). #2 is the 337 block 8 was approved? that is the way it is to be done. Even when applying a STC you can gain a deviation to the instructions by asking for it on a 337 field approval, here again block #8 is what was approved that's how it must be.
Sixie, should have known that.
 
Tom-D said:
I do believe I made a big mistake, thinking I could start this thread here in hopes someone would learn to stay away from propellers even when they are not running, even when they are being worked on they can bite. But those know alls will always place blame, and argue about legal action, thus destroying the learning opportunity for others.
perfectly normal for those to ruin the POA web site usefulness.
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Don't sell yourself short, Tom. I learned a LOT from this thread!
 
Tom-D said:
Just in case,,,, that anyone cares, there is only 2 times the A&P or anyone must follow the maintenance procedure given, 1 is in AD compliance. (either the AMOC or the AD its self). #2 is the 337 block 8 was approved? that is the way it is to be done. Even when applying a STC you can gain a deviation to the instructions by asking for it on a 337 field approval, here again block #8 is what was approved that's how it must be.
Sixie, should have known that.
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I didn't?....:eek:

Hey Tonto....I'm the one holding my prop. :D
 
hotprops said:
Tom, wow you just digging yourself deeper with every post. you got that mad cow thing? btw i thought i would never be sued especially by a friend who i built a hangar for cost . he bought a new aircraft and its wingspan would not fit through the door, somehow it became my problem . you forget you live in the USA 2016.Happy 4th
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you forgot to use the shift key. when you want to start a new sentence use that for the first letter. and certain words like i. hit that shift button. also dont put spaces before the period . thats the dot at the end of the sentence . you wil find peple take you more serious if you try to write better.
 
jesse said:
It'd be pretty easy for someone to say you were negligent for not following the manufacturer's procedure.

Not saying I agree..but just saying how these kinda things play out...

Both of them say someone should be holding the prop.
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"Should" not "Must". There is a big difference between those two words. "Should" means you don't necessarily have to do it.

In the case of the continental manual that you quoted it is even more ambiguous.

"Take necessary precautions to prevent accidental rotation of the propeller while performing the differential pressure leak test".

Tom could argue he took the necessary precaution by positioning the propellor at TDC and instructing the owner to not touch it.

"Differential Pressure tests are best performed with two people, one to adjust the pressure regulator and one to hold the aircraft propeller."

Note it says "best performed with two people" not "must be performed by two people".

I am late to this whole thread and argument but have to say I find it strange how many of you attacked Tom on this.
 
Norman said:
Given that the OP likes to argue just for the sake of arguing it doesn't surprise me one bit.
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Answer 1 question for me, Norman, do you work as an A&P? If So how do you stop owners from doing stuff impulsively ?
 
Tom-D said:
Answer 1 question for me, Norman, do you work as an A&P? If So how do you stop owners from doing stuff impulsively ?
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Yes. I simply don't let them near hot props.

BTW, I'd put you on ignore but it's too entertaining watching you defend yourself from self-inflicted ego wounds.
 
KFD said:
"Take necessary precautions to prevent accidental rotation of the propeller while performing the differential pressure leak test".

Tom could argue he took the necessary precaution by positioning the propellor at TDC and instructing the owner to not touch it.
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No, he can't. The odds of being perfectly on TDC is about the same as getting hit by lightning. It's like trying to balance yourself on a bowling ball. If the prop doesn't move when pressure is added, it's only friction that is holding it stationery. Common sense says you don't balance things that can hurt you. There were no "precautions to prevent accidental rotation" because balancing close to TDC and relying on friction to make up for the error, is not a positive way to prevent rotation.

The customer was wrong for touching the prop. That's not debatable. Compression test, live mag, whatever. Bad things can happen.

The issue is a supposed professional doing something in the most dangerous way possible and not acknowledging it. It's like someone saying "I've done double the speed limit for 50 years, that guy should have known better than to pull out in front of me." You don't create an unnecessarily dangerous situation then blame the other person for not reacting properly to avoid it. Defending your obvious negligence speaks volumes about your character and the quality of your work.
 
KFD said:
"Should" not "Must". There is a big difference between those two words. "Should" means you don't necessarily have to do it.

In the case of the continental manual that you quoted it is even more ambiguous.

"Take necessary precautions to prevent accidental rotation of the propeller while performing the differential pressure leak test".

Tom could argue he took the necessary precaution by positioning the propellor at TDC and instructing the owner to not touch it.

"Differential Pressure tests are best performed with two people, one to adjust the pressure regulator and one to hold the aircraft propeller."

Note it says "best performed with two people" not "must be performed by two people".

I am late to this whole thread and argument but have to say I find it strange how many of you attacked Tom on this.
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Obviously "necessary precautions" were not taken, as there was accidental rotation.
"Take necessary precautions to prevent accidental rotation of the propeller while performing the differential pressure leak test" - That is a "Must" not "Should"
 
tyndall said:
No, he can't. The odds of being perfectly on TDC is about the same as getting hit by lightning.
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BULL S---! you can feel it as you bring it up to TDC on compression stroke.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Obviously "necessary precautions" were not taken, as there was accidental rotation.
"Take necessary precautions to prevent accidental rotation of the propeller while performing the differential pressure leak test" - That is a "Must" not "Should"
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Another BS. The owner was trained in how to do this check, he knew the dangers, what else would you do? lock him in his car? There is no way to anticipate actions of another.
 
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