Curious re:windy landing technique

[Michele]

Wondering about something.*
When it's windy, for landing I usually don't use full flaps (20) and land a little faster (73-4mph instead of 71mph). *Can you tell me why this works.

 

[wabower]

I'd bet that if you made several consecutive landings alternating between full and partial flaps that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Wondering about something.*
When it's windy, for landing I usually don't use full flaps (20) and land a little faster (73-4mph instead of 71mph). *Can you tell me why this works.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you use a reduced flap setting, then you need to increase approach speed to keep the same stall margin over the full flap approach speed (1.3 times the higher partial-flap stall speed is higher than 1.3 times the lower full-flap stall speed).

Personally, I don't see any need to reduce flap settings in windy conditions, but that's a different story for a different thread if anyone wants to discuss it.

 

[matthammer]

A faster airplane will drift less per a given distance flown. Only time you might find it necessary to land without flaps is when you run out of rudder authority from flare to touchdown while using flaps -- since the higher airspeeds of a no-flap approach will also give you better control authority. Of course, if the X-winds are that bad, you might want to consider going somewhere else!

 

[poadeleted20]

A faster airplane will drift less per a given distance flown.

Not if the proper amount of bank is used, in which case there won't be any lateral drift at any speed.

Only time you might find it necessary to land without flaps is when you run out of rudder authority from flare to touchdown while using flaps -- since the higher airspeeds of a no-flap approach will also give you better control authority. Of course, if the X-winds are that bad, you might want to consider going somewhere else!

Agreed.

 

[brcase]

The turbulence is essentially wind shears in various directions. If you suddenly get a change in wind that drops your airspeed 15kts you will be able to recover from this easier if you are a bit faster. Adding power will be more effective if you have less flaps.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[N801BH]

Not if the proper amount of bank is used,
Agreed.

That idea works in a high wing plane.....
What about a low wing one where there is not much dihedral and the wing tip gets dangerously close to the runway ?..

Back east where there are airports with different runway orientations every few miles, going someplace else is a viable option. Out west the next airport might be 50 -100 miles away.... Sometimes you just have to land. .. IMHO

Ps. Brian said it very well in the above post...

Ben.

 

[matthammer]

Not if the proper amount of bank is used, in which case there won't be any lateral drift at any speed.

That's true. My statement was made in a more general sense, though, to convey the relationship between ground speed and wind drift. Another point worth noting is that with a higher ground speed, less corrective bank or crabbing will be necessary to maintain a desired ground track. Some folk are more comfortable flying a faster approach and landing than they are keeping the airplane in an aggressive wing-low position. Bad flying technique, for sure, but it explains why some people find it easier to make no flap landings with strong x-winds.

 

[jesse]

A faster approach speed really makes no sense as you must still slow your airplane down to X value to land. If you come in faster - all you've done - is made the hardest part of landing even harder (you'll spend more time trying to control the airplane close to the ground). With partial flaps you've made it even harder because now you can't see as well.

Try the landing with full flaps and normal speed - you'll be better off. Reducing the flap setting or coming in faster will extend your landing roll and often make it hard to see the runway which makes people end up landing with very poor control and way off center-line.

In most of these light singles we fly - land with full flaps - and pull the power to idle when you've made the runway. Let the airplane come down to the runway and then round-out and wait for the airplane to touch down. Doing this with no power, full flaps, and the appropriate airspeed makes it easier as you don't spend a lot of time in a configuration where you can't see (long flat flares are bad).

 

[wabower]

Low wings have more dihedral, not less. It's for stability. Even birds know that.:wink2:

I'm not aware of any low-wings that have sufficient rudder authority to drag a tip while maintaining straight-line track x-wind. Will some do it?

That idea works in a high wing plane.....
What about a low wing one where there is not much dihedral and the wing tip gets dangerously close to the runway ?..

Back east where there are airports with different runway orientations every few miles, going someplace else is a viable option. Out west the next airport might be 50 -100 miles away.... Sometimes you just have to land. .. IMHO

Ps. Brian said it very well in the above post...

Ben.

 

[N801BH]

Low wings have more dihedral, not less. It's for stability. Even birds know that.:wink2:

I'm not aware of any low-wings that have sufficient rudder authority to drag a tip while maintaining straight-line track x-wind. Will some do it?

Yup.... Quite a bit of experimentals can hit the tips when flown wrong..And a few certified ships too. It has been done before.


This short video shows a couple that got the tip..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJBTBvnT-DM&feature=related

 

[poadeleted20]

The turbulence is essentially wind shears in various directions. If you suddenly get a change in wind that drops your airspeed 15kts you will be able to recover from this easier if you are a bit faster.

You're speaking of stall margin. You get the same increase in stall margin by increasing speed N knots over 1.3 Vs with full flaps as you do by increasing speed the same N knots over 1.3 Vs with half flaps. OTOH, if you increase speed and also reduce flaps, the stall margin may be unchanged.

Adding power will be more effective if you have less flaps.

If you're up against the far right side of the drag curve, yes, but at 1.3 Vs, you've got plenty of reserve power unless you're at Leadville or something like that.

And, FWIW, I've never in nearly 8000 hours in light planes seen the airspeed drop 15 knots in turbulence on final. The wing loading in light planes is just too low for that to happen. You may see the airspeed bounce, but it recovers as quickly as it drops.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

You can argue 'til the cows come home, but in the end, whatever works best for you and whatever airplane you are driving.

Personally, I don't use flaps at all. And if I'm a little hot, I just do a wheel landing. But those may be bad ideas for your airplane.

 

[poadeleted20]

That idea works in a high wing plane.....
What about a low wing one where there is not much dihedral and the wing tip gets dangerously close to the runway ?..

I know that's a problem in KC-135R's, but that's kind of a special case. Personally, I've only got light plane low-wing time in Piper Cherokees, Tomahawks, Comanches, Aztecs and Apaches; Cessna 401's; Beech Bonanzas, T-34's, and Barons; Mooney M20's; and Grumman Yankees, Travelers, Cheetahs, Cougars, and Tigers (at least that's as many as I can remember off the top of my head), so perhaps my experience is limited, but I've not experienced a crosswind component of up to 35 knots in any of them I couldn't handle with full flaps and not dragging a wing on the ground. I suppose that there may be some other types I've never flown in which that is a problem, so I'm open to learning about those types.

Back east where there are airports with different runway orientations every few miles, going someplace else is a viable option. Out west the next airport might be 50 -100 miles away.... Sometimes you just have to land. .. IMHO

Landings may be mandatory, but takeoffs are optional, so if you're in that situation, odds are you put yourself in it. However, if that happens despite the best weather forecast data available, you do what you gotta do, and if it takes an approach/landing speed above Vfe to have enough lateral control, you land with flaps retracted...

...and then remember how you got yourself in that hole so you don't do it again. There's a story about the time many years ago I landed a Grumman Cheetah in a 45-knot direct crosswind (with full flaps, without dragging a wing) -- and I won't make that mistake (taking off in those conditions) again.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not aware of any low-wings that have sufficient rudder authority to drag a tip while maintaining straight-line track x-wind. Will some do it?

None I've ever flown unless the crosswind component is above 35 knots (the most I've ever felt happy to accept in a light single).

 

[poadeleted20]

Yup.... Quite a bit of experimentals can hit the tips when flown wrong..And a few certified ships too. It has been done before.

Right -- "when flown wrong." But they can catch a wing tip with no crosswind and no flaps when flown wrong, too, so crosswind vs flaps isn't the issue -- pilot competence is.

While I won't get into the issue of Experimentals that don't meet FAA CAR 3/Part 23 certification standards, flown right, it's doesn't happen in any production light single low-wing in any crosswind in which anyone with half a brain working will try landing (see above regarding the 45-knot crosswind -- I did not have half a brain working that day).

 

[N801BH]

I know that's a problem in KC-135R's, but that's kind of a special case........ so perhaps my experience is limited, but I've not experienced a crosswind component of up to 35 knots in any of them I couldn't handle with full flaps and not dragging a wing on the ground. I suppose that there may be some other types I've never flown in which that is a problem, so I'm open to learning about those types.

Landings may be mandatory, but takeoffs are optional, so if you're in that situation, odds are you put yourself in it. However, if that happens despite the best weather forecast data available, you do what you gotta do, and if it takes an approach/landing speed above Vfe to have enough lateral control, you land with flaps retracted...

...and then remember how you got yourself in that hole so you don't do it again. There's a story about the time many years ago I landed a Grumman Cheetah in a 45-knot direct crosswind (with full flaps, without dragging a wing) -- and I won't make that mistake (taking off in those conditions) again.

You have answered my post correctly... Congrats..

And I am glad someone with your credentials will admit there are times one should land with NO flaps...

I rest my case...

Ben.

 

[poadeleted20]

You have answered my post correctly... Congrats..

And I am glad someone with your credentials will admit there are times one should land with NO flaps...

Yeah -- when your bad decisions or unforecast exceptionally extreme conditions have resulted in an untenable situation, not as a routine measure for nonemergency situations, and I thought we were discussing the latter. One might have to land gear-up, too, but one would hardly suggest doing it as a normal procedure.

 

[N801BH]

Yeah -- when your bad decisions or unforecast exceptionally extreme conditions have resulted in an untenable situation, not as a routine measure for nonemergency situations, and I thought we were discussing the latter. One might have to land gear-up, too, but one would hardly suggest doing it as a normal procedure.

Now you are spinning this to make it sound like only in a emergency should one use no flaps.... I have been flying decades and I have not even scratched the paint on any plane I have flown... Altho I have been exposed to "very poor forecasts" and through it all am still alive... The moral is..... You do what you have to do to complete a flight safely... It is a PIC thing ya know...

Cheers and Happy New Year sir...

Ben.

 

[jnmeade]

It is interesting to me that with a steady cross wind, the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook makes no provision for landing with other than normal flaps and at normal speeds. AFH points out that one should not be landing at greater than demonstrated cross wind capability and further says to abide by manufacturers guidance. If one exceed limits, then one does whatever one thinks is right, I suppose, and is prepared to answer for it.

Landing in gusty conditions is treated differently.

"To maintain good control, the approach in turbulent air
with gusty crosswind may require the use of partial
wing flaps. With less than full flaps, the airplane will
be in a higher pitch attitude. Thus, it will require less
of a pitch change to establish the landing attitude, and
the touchdown will be at a higher airspeed to ensure
more positive control. The speed should not be so
excessive that the airplane will float past the desired
landing area.
One procedure is to use the normal approach speed
plus one-half of the wind gust factors. If the normal
speed is 70 knots, and the wind gusts increase 15 knots,
airspeed of 77 knots is appropriate. In any case, the airspeed
and the amount of flaps should be as the airplane
manufacturer recommends.
An adequate amount of power should be used to maintain
the proper airspeed and descent path throughout
the approach, and the throttle retarded to idling position
only after the main wheels contact the landing surface.
Care must be exercised in closing the throttle before the
pilot is ready for touchdown. In this situation, the sudden
or premature closing of the throttle may cause a sudden
increase in the descent rate that could result in a hard
landing."

Now to the opinion part. In my opinion, I see pilots who land faster than necessary because they are not comfortable landing the airplane as the manufacturer specifies. CFI are complicit because they have their own reasons for wanting to come in a little hot. Perhaps its because pilots think that while landing fast is not optimal, the downside is usually acceptable, while the downside of a mistake when landing at the right speed may mean sprung gear or such. The CFI perhaps feels s/he has insufficient time to react if something goes wrong at the book speed, and perhaps that is right.

I am now flying a Flight Design CTSW and the debate on this topic raging in those circles is even more strident than it is with more traditional airplanes.

 

[p1l0t]

No one has mentoned yet (unless I missed it) that leaving the flaps up increases your stall speed. It is not a big difference in most small airplanes but if you are cutting it that close it can make the difference because you can be 'done flying' with that much more rudder authority or airflow on the rudder. Also F=MA.. the amount the X/W effects you is less with increasing speed. It is really threading the needle though if you are that close to max component (not necessairly the demonstrated component).

<---<^>--->

 

[Jeanie]

when I started flying I asked my husband about the crosswind component and he said "the what". So I explained it to him and he laughed and said he never knew about such things back in the day Jean you just land the d**n plane. He soloed in 1957...

Well, having flown out here in the mountains I understand that now. I have experimented with it -flaps, no flaps, slow not so slow .... Really it's dynamic and you just set it up and land. If it isn't above 24-26 then I just land with normal flaps and approach speed. If it's gustin to 28 and up then I come in hotter and put it down.

So, here's a question to Michele the OP, when you say windy what do you mean?
In parts of the country windy is 15 and in some parts it's 35.
I have discovered though that if you have full flaps in high wind the plane is thru flying quicker and you are less likely to get tossed about and carrying some power gives you some cushion

PS: if the wind is really bad then it's a survival landing and straight down the runway and still on the runway is a good thing. If you run out of rudder then go around and hope that you make it in next approach between gusts. If that's not possible then try to go somewhere else. Or maybe use a taxiway, land "diagonally" etc etc as has been discussed before IIRC.

 

[Jaybird180]

This short video shows a couple that got the tip..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJBTBvnT-DM&feature=related

You see those gas prices?

 

[poadeleted20]

Now you are spinning this to make it sound like only in a emergency should one use no flaps.... I have been flying decades and I have not even scratched the paint on any plane I have flown... Altho I have been exposed to "very poor forecasts" and through it all am still alive... The moral is..... You do what you have to do to complete a flight safely... It is a PIC thing ya know...

Well, I wasn't the one who postulated an emergency as the reason for using no flaps, just agreeing that an emergency is a good reason for doing so. But I still think that based on all the accident reports I've reviewed, and the fundamental Law of Exercise, using anything other than full flaps for all landings is the safest standard practice, even when the wind is stronger or gustier than usual, and if the wind is so strong and gusty that landing with full flaps is unsafe, someone (either the forecaster or the pilot deciding to launch) made a bad decision.

 

[bbchien]

Many years ago I made a pretty extreme crosswind landing in Lincoln ME. It's 2000 feet long and had trees on 3 sides, and the end is in the Penobscot River.

I got it tied down and walked into the FBO. The old Forest Service contractor pilot behind the counter didn't hear me come; then he looked at me and said, "you landed in.... that (pointing to the outside, sock Straight out, gusting....)? Well I wouldn't be proud of that....!"

I had dragged it in over the river, landed full flaps, with added power on the upwind engine so as to not run out of rudder.

I have since reconsidered the wisdom.....

If you have ABSOLUTELY GOT to make a landing, if you are so far down in your options, I would choose to little more airspeed, get the upwind wheel down, blow off the flaps (to hasten the transition between flying and not flying, and BEING VERY CAREFUL THAT IT ISN'T THE GEAR SWITCH). BUT if you lose anything, I'd blow it off....go elsewhere.

In singles, I think the reason why a smidgen more airspeed works is that the rudder has more authority....

 

[wabower]

There are situations where a pilot can get tricked by winds that weren't supposed to be there. It happened to me on a trip from LGA to MKC with a couple of fuel stops along the way, flying a Comanche 180. The winds in Indiana were forecast low 20's turned out to be high 30's, and increasing rather than abating as afternoon turned to evening. Had to cheat the runway direction a tad (landing corner to corner) to make it work. No mas.

Well, I wasn't the one who postulated an emergency as the reason for using no flaps, just agreeing that an emergency is a good reason for doing so. But I still think that based on all the accident reports I've reviewed, and the fundamental Law of Exercise, using anything other than full flaps for all landings is the safest standard practice, even when the wind is stronger or gustier than usual, and if the wind is so strong and gusty that landing with full flaps is unsafe, someone (either the forecaster or the pilot deciding to launch) made a bad decision.

 

[Michele]

when I started flying I asked my husband about the crosswind component and he said "the what". So I explained it to him and he laughed and said he never knew about such things back in the day Jean you just land the d**n plane. He soloed in 1957...

Well, having flown out here in the mountains I understand that now. I have experimented with it -flaps, no flaps, slow not so slow .... Really it's dynamic and you just set it up and land. If it isn't above 24-26 then I just land with normal flaps and approach speed. If it's gustin to 28 and up then I come in hotter and put it down.

So, here's a question to Michele the OP, when you say windy what do you mean?
In parts of the country windy is 15 and in some parts it's 35.
I have discovered though that if you have full flaps in high wind the plane is thru flying quicker and you are less likely to get tossed about and carrying some power gives you some cushion

PS: if the wind is really bad then it's a survival landing and straight down the runway and still on the runway is a good thing. If you run out of rudder then go around and hope that you make it in next approach between gusts. If that's not possible then try to go somewhere else. Or maybe use a taxiway, land "diagonally" etc etc as has been discussed before IIRC.

I've always wondered about this. The first time I heard about it was from a friend who was shown the technique on his windy check ride by the DPE. Later, flying with various CFIs I've been advised to use the technique.

What prompted this particular post was that I was planning a flight for today and the wind was forecast 12G19 and at a nearby airport, 14G24. I hadn't had any wind like this since last winter and was going over my "wind" repertoire. Realizing I was just following something rote, I was curious about the maneuver and created this thread.

After reading the first few posts, I went out and experimented by trying both techniques, but honestly, the wind had died down considerably and nothing was really happening either way.

But I learned a lot from all the posters, getting a 360 point of view, and the winter wind season has only just begun. Thanks to all.

 

[Dr. O]

If you have not landed without flaps, you should (must actually)... Same goes for partial flaps... And keep doing them until they feel normal...
If your CFI has not put a sink stopper over the ASI and had you land with various flap configurations, fire him and get one that has a sink stopper in their pocket...

For the typical light single engine airplanes we fly, those who have to mechanically operate by the numbers -a certain rpm at a certain flap with a certain speed number - are driving the Airplane, not flying it... That is necessary for the beginning student who has to have a starting point for learning... But by the time the student is turned loose for his solo cross country he needs to be able to fly/land the airplane safely by feel/sound/sight-picture... Bugs and ice do clog pitot tubes... Static lines do get clogged... Flap motors do fail... And on, and on...

denny-o

 

[midlifeflyer]

I know that's a problem in KC-135R's, but that's kind of a special case. Personally, I've only got light plane low-wing time in Piper Cherokees, Tomahawks, Comanches, Aztecs and Apaches; Cessna 401's; Beech Bonanzas, T-34's, and Barons; Mooney M20's; and Grumman Yankees, Travelers, Cheetahs, Cougars, and Tigers (at least that's as many as I can remember off the top of my head), so perhaps my experience is limited, but I've not experienced a crosswind component of up to 35 knots in any of them I couldn't handle with full flaps and not dragging a wing on the ground. I suppose that there may be some other types I've never flown in which that is a problem, so I'm open to learning about those types..

 

[taters]

This is like high-wings are better than low-wings


With solid technique, Ive seen both methods work very nice. I will add this, passengers dont want to be put into a steep side-slip, it feels uncomfortable and un-natural. So I may use one method by my-self in a 150 vs(a little faster -less flap) if my wife is riding along.

 

[Anthony]

Full flaps for me in the Tiger no matter the wind conditions. However, they are essentially drag inducing, and adjust the attitude of the plane to be more level so you can see better.

Agree with Jesse on the small amount of float after the flare. Only bad things can happen in gusty crosswinds when you are low, and slow over the runway for a loooong time. Nail the airspeed on final, pull the power, and get it down and planted, with continued control inputs until the plane is stopped at your hangar or tiedown.

 

[Fearless Tower]

For the typical light single engine airplanes we fly, those who have to mechanically operate by the numbers -a certain rpm at a certain flap with a certain speed number - are driving the Airplane, not flying it...

Dunno.....I've seen plenty of people who are constantly fiddling with power and flaps and speeds and descent rates who are hardly 'flying' the airplane while I have seen plenty who have a much better feel for the airplane while flying it by the numbers.

 

[dell30rb]

I don't care what speed/flap speed you're using (book speed or your own) if its 15g25 you're gonna be pretty active on the controls.

An ILS on a calm night does feel a bit like driving though. Intercept the GS, throttle back to you're pre-determined setting and hardly touch anything until you're just above the runway.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

If you have not landed without flaps, you should (must actually)... Same goes for partial flaps... And keep doing them until they feel normal...
If your CFI has not put a sink stopper over the ASI and had you land with various flap configurations, fire him and get one that has a sink stopper in their pocket...

For the typical light single engine airplanes we fly, those who have to mechanically operate by the numbers -a certain rpm at a certain flap with a certain speed number - are driving the Airplane, not flying it... That is necessary for the beginning student who has to have a starting point for learning... But by the time the student is turned loose for his solo cross country he needs to be able to fly/land the airplane safely by feel/sound/sight-picture... Bugs and ice do clog pitot tubes... Static lines do get clogged... Flap motors do fail... And on, and on...

denny-o

My flap motor failed within my first few flights as a private pilot, and it was with Mari as my VIP passenger! Best no flap landing ever, and funny thing is I'd only done one in my entire life (thanks Mari for advice). Reading this thread makes me want to go out and "break" my routine, experiment, etc. on a calm day. I definitely should do more no flap landings. So far I guess I've been "driving" according to your definition.

 

[denverpilot]

It's far more interesting when they break in the DOWN position. All the way down. 40 degrees.

Been there, done that. Wasn't particularly fun, but the runway was long and there was room to stop after not confirming they came up on a stop-and-go. Could'a been much worse.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

It's far more interesting when they break in the DOWN position. All the way down. 40 degrees.

Been there, done that. Wasn't particularly fun, but the runway was long and there was room to stop after not confirming they came up on a stop-and-go. Could'a been much worse.

Another reason I don't do stop and go's (never have). Too much stuff for me to juggle all at once.

 

[denverpilot]

Can happen during a go-around too... had that once, but wiggling the crap out of the handle got 'em up. That was in a beat up rental.

Cessna flap controls are somewhat notorious for this "fun" occurrence.

 

[dmccormack]

AWOS/ASOS/ATIS wind reports are not what's actually happening the moment and where you will be landing.

Ever been to an airport with two wind socks, each pointing in the opposite direction?

Consider the AWOS information, but let the airplane on final tell you what the wind is doing.

Too many pilots listen to the AWOS then set up a 3 mile final as if the winds are that all the way to touchdown.

It ain't.

 

[VTC_WS6]

AWOS/ASOS/ATIS wind reports are not what's actually happening the moment and where you will be landing.

Ever been to an airport with two wind socks, each pointing in the opposite direction?

Consider the AWOS information, but let the airplane on final tell you what the wind is doing.

Too many pilots listen to the AWOS then set up a 3 mile final as if the winds are that all the way to touchdown.

It ain't.

X2. I'm final on Marco Isnald and watching the sock dance in a near 50-60* arc while ASOS is repeating the same wind direction for over 2 hours lol.. makes for a fun game of "guess the correction" on short final

 

[poadeleted20]

It's far more interesting when they break in the DOWN position. All the way down. 40 degrees.

Been there, done that. Wasn't particularly fun, but the runway was long and there was room to stop after not confirming they came up on a stop-and-go. Could'a been much worse.

Good example of why one should not add power on a T&G without confirming that the flaps were at least moving, or on S&G without confirming that the flaps were in the takeoff position?