CTAF congestion

Richard

Richard

Final Approach
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Ack...city life
This is a pet peeve of mine. While the article limits itself to ground ops, I'm much more concerned witht the chit chat in the air.

http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/

122.80 is a common freq and can be heard for hundreds of miles. Unfortunately even the "professional" pilots clog the freq because they think they are the only ones on the freq. Grrrrr:mad:
 
One of the things that annoys me is when I land and pull up to the pumps at my home airport the line guys take their sweat time getting out there to fill me up. So when I need fuel I will say 'Cherokee 8116B clear of runway 27 (or 9), taxi to the pumps." To wake them up.
 
smigaldi said:
One of the things that annoys me is when I land and pull up to the pumps at my home airport the line guys take their sweat time getting out there to fill me up. So when I need fuel I will say 'Cherokee 8116B clear of runway 27 (or 9), taxi to the pumps." To wake them up.
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You could use the UNICOM frequency - which is the same one. :D

Transmitting on the ground is not the main problem. Your signal doesn't go far from the ground. Once you get 500 feet up you're sharing the frequencies with everyone for 100 miles around.
 
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mikea said:
Transmitting on the ground is not the main problem. Your signal doesn't go far from the ground. Once you get 500 feet up you're sharing the frequencies with everyone for 1000 miles around.
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Consider yourself one of the very few who understand that.
 
Thank GOD someone in a public capacity will finally condemn "Taxi to ramp" or "Taxi from ramp" or "Clear of runway."

I had a CFI get on my case for not annoucing that I was taxiing from the ramp to runway 22. I pointed out "There's no traffic nearby, and there's planes in the pattern." He responded with something like "Its in the AIM, man, look it up."

I didn't continue arguing, I just chalked it up to another CFI that doesn't know what he's doing. FWIW, I did ask later how he felt about slips with full flaps in a Cessna. Can you guess how he answered?
 
SkyHog said:
...FWIW, I did ask later how he felt about slips with full flaps in a Cessna. Can you guess how he answered?
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Kinda like mine who said I HAD TO RAISE THE FLAPS IMMEDIATELY on a go-around because the plane can't climb with full flaps!

No. Your plane can't climb with full flaps.
 
If my voice wasn't so well recognized on this field already, I'd be telling more than a few to shut up. When they call the "Unicom" for an "Airport Advisory" rather than listen to what's happening not to mention listen to the ASOS, I get a bit ticked off at their stupidity. Do these idiots actually think this old guy is sitting in this office with a radar screen? I have a better view sitting on my ramp than he does.

I can't wait for our tower to be finished!
 
Coulda used a bit more congestion on the CTAF today... Taxied to the r/w, listening all the time. NEVER heard a word... called out "departing on r/w 24" (coulda used either, calm winds, this one was closest). Start rolling "Traffic departing, we're on a two mile final ILS approach r/w 6, what are your intentions"

Well, if I'm departing, then my INTENTION is to roll down that long runway and take off in that general direction. Which of course would put me head on to that guy practicing ILS approaches without talking on the radio. :rolleyes:. "We'll stand by and wait for you". So they do their missed approach, then we leave. They want to know what we're going to do. Their missed approach SHOULD put them on the north side of the airport and I tell 'em we're departing to the south.
 
kids....air to air freq: 122.85 or 122.75
 
SkyHog said:
Thank GOD someone in a public capacity will finally condemn "Taxi to ramp" or "Taxi from ramp" or "Clear of runway."
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I hate the "taxi" calls (my first call at a non-towered airport is "Nxxx, departing runway xxx" normally), but I don't really see that much of a problem with the "clear" or "crossing" calls. Sure, a white airplane on an asphalt runway or a Cub-yellow airplane on concrete are very visible, but other combinations aren't so much so. Dirty white airplane on concrete with an overcast, Matt's green 140 on the grass at Gaston's, etc.
 
A call that you're taxiing to a runway will inform in incoming pilot of the runway in use if the field is quiet. It may prevent yet another "request airport advisory" call. That's assuming the inbound pilot listens for a minute or two before grabbing the mic--yes, I know it's a stretch.

I agree that if the field is busy and the frequency congested, a taxi-to call is a waste of time.

Jon
 
Making calls for ground movement is fine. It's a safe thing to do. Just make them short and concise. And, as said earlier, stop the crap with the radio checks and airport advisories. LISTEN before you speak.
 
Funny, I pulled the /asf off the url above, to see what OTHER blogs the AOPA has, so I could RSS subscribe to them... oops, somebody forgot to put up a blog index page:

http://blog.aopa.org
 
etsisk said:
Coulda used a bit more congestion on the CTAF today... Taxied to the r/w, listening all the time. NEVER heard a word... called out "departing on r/w 24" (coulda used either, calm winds, this one was closest). Start rolling "Traffic departing, we're on a two mile final ILS approach r/w 6, what are your intentions"

Well, if I'm departing, then my INTENTION is to roll down that long runway and take off in that general direction. Which of course would put me head on to that guy practicing ILS approaches without talking on the radio. :rolleyes:. "We'll stand by and wait for you". So they do their missed approach, then we leave. They want to know what we're going to do. Their missed approach SHOULD put them on the north side of the airport and I tell 'em we're departing to the south.
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Mine would be "nnn traffic, Cherokee nnn departing runway 2-7 departing the pattern to the southeast," which gives your intentions... but I think you ran into another "We're on an instrument procedure and we told you once we were on the VOR alpha approach and went back to approach and from that point all the planes at the airport should be on their knees and just watching and admiring the glow of our coolness." :mad: Even if you gave intentions these guys wouldn't have heard it because they wouldn't be on the CTAF.
 
mikea said:
Mine would be "nnn traffic, Cherokee nnn departing runway 2-7 departing the pattern to the southeast," which gives your intentions... but I think you ran into another "We're on an instrument procedure and we told you once we were on the VOR alpha approach and went back to approach and from that point all the planes at the airport should be on their knees and just watching and admiring the glow of our coolness." :mad: Even if you gave intentions these guys wouldn't have heard it because they wouldn't be on the CTAF.
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Being one of those cool ones...

;-)

Usually on an approach you're told to switch to advisory (local) frequency fairly far out, to avoid this very problem.

If I don't get switched at least 5 miles out I ask to be switched.
 
deafsound said:
kids....air to air freq: 122.85 or 122.75
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Really? You mean the knuckleheads on 121.5 are not on the right frequency?

I monitor guard quit a bit on some of my flights and I am absolutely amazed at the number of calls I hear on guard for people to see if they are monitoring. If the person they are calling does anwser they go other frequencies but geesh, guard is not the calling channel like marine channel 16, it is for emergency comms.
 
Radio use should adhere to one simple golden rule -- "To know and be known."

Am I listening so I know where others are and what they are doing?

Am I telling so others know where I am and where I am going?

If so -- good.

Forbidding taxi announcements or condemning air-to-air coordination as "CTAF congestion" is being a mite too clever.

To wit...

Last night I was flying into my home airport from the west. I heard the Tri-pacer announce takeoff.

I replied, "Departing traffic, where are you headed after takeoff?"

"Oh, we'll head off to the north -- right turn after takeoff"

"Sounds good, I'll enter and extended left downwind for 26" (Well south of him)

Was that "Congestion" or "Chatter"?

No.

Is it "Standard AIM phraseology?"

No.

Did we avoid each other and make intentions clearly known?

Absolutely.
 
mikea said:
Mine would be "nnn traffic, Cherokee nnn departing runway 2-7 departing the pattern to the southeast," which gives your intentions... but I think you ran into another "We're on an instrument procedure and we told you once we were on the VOR alpha approach and went back to approach and from that point all the planes at the airport should be on their knees and just watching and admiring the glow of our coolness." :mad: Even if you gave intentions these guys wouldn't have heard it because they wouldn't be on the CTAF.
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IME there is often a problem for the pilot flying approaches into an uncontrolled airport. ATC will often keep the airplane on their frequency until the plane is a lot closer to the runway than ideal. My solution is to attempt to monitor the CTAF on a second radio and make an announcement on the CTAF while monitoring ATC but even that can become impractical if the ATC and or CTAF freq is congested.

As to the "We're on an instrument procedure and we told you once we were on the VOR alpha approach and went back to approach and from that point all the planes at the airport should be on their knees and just watching and admiring the glow of our coolness." attitude, IMO that "attitude" is more often than not an incorrect perception of the VFR pilot. I see nothing in the reported exchange to indicate that the IFR pilot held this opinion and I think etsik's response (hold until the approaching airplane passes) would have been correct whether the airplane on a 2 mile final was VFR or IFR assuming that etsik felt that 2 miles of final would provide insufficient time for a departure.
 
Given that we were gonna be head-on (him on approach for 06 and me taking off on 24!) I don't think we had much leeway, you know? :D

I didn't get any sense of that attitude from the other guy, but I DO think that he should have been making some position calls prior to telling us "oops, I'm right here!"

and it's etsiSk, by the btw, with TWO s's... ;)
 
etsisk said:
Given that we were gonna be head-on (him on approach for 06 and me taking off on 24!) I don't think we had much leeway, you know? :D

I didn't get any sense of that attitude from the other guy, but I DO think that he should have been making some position calls prior to telling us "oops, I'm right here!"

and it's etsiSk, by the btw, with TWO s's... ;)
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I have run into a situation like yours where I was the one on approach. Coming into 10C there is only a VOR-A and GPS-B approach that lines you up with runway 27. Winds on that VMC day favored runway 09 and planes were in the pattern makign their calls and flying.

I started making my call early that I was flying an approach, in plain English let everyone know where I was and that I would break off the approach 3 miles out and join the down wind. As I got closer it was obvious that even that was going to interfere with a departing aircraft, so I broke off the approach, left the pattern completely and reentered using standard VFR type entry procedure ala the AIM. On the ground I ran into a woman who was the in the pattern, she was a solo student and she thanked me for talking in plain English and letting her know what I was going to do. I figure we should all fly friendly and safe and as I am the one going against the grain in this situation it is up to me to fit in with what the herd was doing.
 
Taxi calls certainly help at an airport with no parallel taxiway.

One size does not fit all.

flyingcheesehead said:
I hate the "taxi" calls (my first call at a non-towered airport is "Nxxx, departing runway xxx" normally), but I don't really see that much of a problem with the "clear" or "crossing" calls. Sure, a white airplane on an asphalt runway or a Cub-yellow airplane on concrete are very visible, but other combinations aren't so much so. Dirty white airplane on concrete with an overcast, Matt's green 140 on the grass at Gaston's, etc.
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Steve said:
Taxi calls certainly help at an airport with no parallel taxiway.

One size does not fit all.
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In my mind anytime you're going to be on the runway, wheterh it's a back-taxi or crossing another runway, it's worth a radio call. Yes, the AIM does specify making calls that you're taxiing to the runway, but I've never found that too important. I'll also make radio calls on the ground if I'm going to be running up for a while (e.g. burning carbon off the plugs) to tell others waiting that they can go ahead of me if practical.

Radio checks are done on Unicom (multicom?), which, luckily for us at Clow, is a separate frequency.
 
etsisk said:
Given that we were gonna be head-on (him on approach for 06 and me taking off on 24!) I don't think we had much leeway, you know? :D
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Yeah, I'd have made the same call.

I didn't get any sense of that attitude from the other guy, but I DO think that he should have been making some position calls prior to telling us "oops, I'm right here!"
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I agree that an earlier position call would have been better, but as I tried to explain there are times when that's just not possible. I also believe that there are many times when it is possible but due to pilot workload issues it doesn't happen.

But back to the OP's issue, I doubt that things would have improved if you had transmitted your intentions prior to reaching the end of the runway. Chances are the other pilot wouldn't have heard you anyway. In any case it seems to me that this one actually worked out pretty well. The inbound pilot heard and responded to your
announcement and you were able to remain clear until the conflict was resolved. This is far better than learning about the head on airplane once you've started to take off.

and it's etsiSk, by the btw, with TWO s's... ;)
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Sorry:redface:, I tried to type that but missed.
 
mikea said:
Mine would be "nnn traffic, Cherokee nnn departing runway 2-7 departing the pattern to the southeast," which gives your intentions... but I think you ran into another "We're on an instrument procedure and we told you once we were on the VOR alpha approach and went back to approach and from that point all the planes at the airport should be on their knees and just watching and admiring the glow of our coolness." :mad: Even if you gave intentions these guys wouldn't have heard it because they wouldn't be on the CTAF.
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dmccormack said:
Being one of those cool ones...

;-)

Usually on an approach you're told to switch to advisory (local) frequency fairly far out, to avoid this very problem.

If I don't get switched at least 5 miles out I ask to be switched.
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If the CTAF and the pattern are busy, my guess it is a VFR day. Is there any reason not to cancel IFR and join the pattern?

If someone mentions practice approaches, I don't think you need to be under ATC control- I did a number of them out of ATC control as a student). My safety pilot would make calls so the VFR traffic knew where we were with respect to the airport (X miles to the north). We rarely had trouble fitting in or we would break off and go missed.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
If someone mentions practice approaches, I don't think you need to be under ATC control- I did a number of them out of ATC control as a student). My safety pilot would make calls so the VFR traffic knew where we were with respect to the airport (X miles to the north). We rarely had trouble fitting in or we would break off and go missed.
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For the most part true.

But my $.02: I was flying into KSMD IFR and was IMC. Clouds were at about 2000'MSL, I started the approach under control from FWA approach. As usual at the FAF they had me switch to advisory, to my surprise the frequency was hoping with traffic in the pattern. I broke out of IMC about 4 miles out and it was MVFR at best but the local EAA chapter was having a young Eagles event. They were just staying in the pattern. I made my calls and with talking to the other plane worked my way into the pattern. It was cordial.

Once on the ground the main person running the event asked me to comment on conditions, I did, he thanked, and with zero attitude on either side of the conversation he decided to shut down the flying for the event.
 
KennyFlys said:
When they call the "Unicom" for an "Airport Advisory" rather than listen to what's happening not to mention listen to the ASOS, I get a bit ticked off at their stupidity.
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Grrrrrrr. Serious pet peeve!!!!
 
Some 135 operators are required to call the Unicom for an advisory by their operations specifications. But otherwise, I agree it's a waste.
 
I don't talk on CTAF unless I'm impacting a runway. Crossing one, taking off, landing, back-taxi. I do a lot of listening. If I hear someone going to a runway, or landing on a certain runway, I'll plan to use that one too. I usually call clear but all I give is "Bonanza clear at podunk". The one I seem to enunciate well is the "Poduck Bonanza final 1-7, Podunk". I usually give that extra clarity and a bit more volume.
 
THanks, Lance. Dunno why he wouldn't have had time - there were two of 'em in the plane and WE had just practiced that ILS approach three times, two missed and one to a full stop. THere's a fair amount of time built into that, esp. with an extra person in the plane. But I'm not mad or anything - I'd just have liked to have heard from him earlier. I've messed up much worse than that, I expect. :eek:
 
The variety of comments shows how situation-dependent it is: airport, weather, traffic... heck, more than once I've been delayed calling a leg or whatever because of chatter; looking for traffic is far more important, although radios can- can be a big help. Sometimes I'd rather be in the pattern with all NORDOs, the chatter and bad calls can be ridiculous sometimes. And for heaven's sake, can we all keep the chitchat with Unicom to a minimum?

Sure, I've strayed from the AIM a few times ("Where you off to?", "What's the wind doing down there?", or a simple greeting, etc.)... but a grasp of the big picture is a must when doing that, to make sure you don't step on an important call... and it must always be brief. You won't catch me blathering on and on like some folks I've heard. But if I happen to unnecesarily squash somebody's "any traffic please advise" when they're 20 miles out, well, shucks, they'll just have to try again. :D

On the other hand, if I am hearing nothing on a CTAF 15 miles out, make a position report at 10 and hear nothing, and make a "runway in use" query before commiting to a pattern because I know the wind is light or variable, I don't need some smartass (who's probably on the field) advising me "why dontcha fly over and look at the sock?" as if I didn't know how to do that... :rolleyes:

And FWIW, I never announce taxi (other than moving onto the runway for departure), unless I'm clearing, crossing, or back-taxiing on the runway. Those three situations warrant a call, I think. Ground transmissions can indeed sometimes clutter up a CTAF for aircraft in the pattern, so I like to keep the calls to a minimum and focus on being predictable and keeping a sharp eye out.
 
dmccormack said:
Not always the case, and the approaches aren't always practice.
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I realize that not all busy days are clear VFR, but the majority probably are. On these nice days, any reason not to join the pattern? The commercial aircraft probably can't due to their procedures, but I've even seen the charter jets cancel IFR and work with the little guys at Millville, NJ.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I realize that not all busy days are clear VFR, but the majority probably are. On these nice days, any reason not to join the pattern? The commercial aircraft probably can't due to their procedures, but I've even seen the charter jets cancel IFR and work with the little guys at Millville, NJ.
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No reason at all...

Way back in this thread I said the switch to CTAF was usually done far enough out to announce position. The pilot on the approach should then listen for other traffic and fit into the flow.

If I was unclear my apologies.
 
dmccormack said:
Radio use should adhere to one simple golden rule -- "To know and be known."

Am I listening so I know where others are and what they are doing?

Am I telling so others know where I am and where I am going?

If so -- good.

Forbidding taxi announcements or condemning air-to-air coordination as "CTAF congestion" is being a mite too clever.

To wit...

Last night I was flying into my home airport from the west. I heard the Tri-pacer announce takeoff.

I replied, "Departing traffic, where are you headed after takeoff?"

"Oh, we'll head off to the north -- right turn after takeoff"

"Sounds good, I'll enter and extended left downwind for 26" (Well south of him)

Was that "Congestion" or "Chatter"?

No.

Is it "Standard AIM phraseology?"

No.

Did we avoid each other and make intentions clearly known?

Absolutely.
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Allow me to clarify my position;
my peeve is not with coordination of landing and departing aircraft. My beef is with the guys using the common freq to coordinate their BBQ or to catch up on personal matters.

Such misuse is not limited to Podunk International; I've also experienced this in SoCal, Oakland, and Phoenix. The rush by other pilots to get a word in results in often garbled transmissions which of course requires a repeat of those transmissions which only adds to the congestion.

What you did as shown in your example, even using non-standard phraseology, is not verboten.

EDIT TO ADD: However, even at Podunk this misuse of the freq is a problem because there may be 20, 30, 50 airports within hearing distance all using the same freq.
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
If the CTAF and the pattern are busy, my guess it is a VFR day. Is there any reason not to cancel IFR and join the pattern?

<snip>

If someone mentions practice approaches, I don't think you need to be under ATC control
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My personal pet peeve at uncontrolled fields with practice approaches.

There are pilots who insist that unless you fly the approach down to MDA/DH and the MAP, that it shouldn't be logged if you break it off early to stay at/above pattern altitude. I agree that you need this type of practice too, however there are better times to do this when the pattern isn't full on a nice, clear VFR day.

Same with ATC. At controlled fields, I understand it. But at uncontrolled fields, why? Again, I understand the need for practice in the ATC system, but at the expense of safety?

Greg
 
Richard said:
Allow me to clarify my position;
my peeve is not with coordination of landing and departing aircraft. My beef is with the guys using the common freq to coordinate their BBQ or to catch up on personal matters.
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Agreed.

122.800 isn't the place for:

"So Ed, you up at Podunk?"
"Yeah, Tom - we came up but the restaurant is closed..."
"Yeah, uhhh.. they are only open on Tuesday and Thursday's now..."
"What's the gas price there?"
"Umm...I think four fifty?"

blah,blah, blah...

I heard this conversation between two pilots in the vicinity of an airport 100 nm from ours, but we couldn't get a word in edgewise.
 
dmccormack said:
Agreed.

122.800 isn't the place for:

"So Ed, you up at Podunk?"
"Yeah, Tom - we came up but the restaurant is closed..."
"Yeah, uhhh.. they are only open on Tuesday and Thursday's now..."
"What's the gas price there?"
"Umm...I think four fifty?"

blah,blah, blah...

I heard this conversation between two pilots in the vicinity of an airport 100 nm from ours, but we couldn't get a word in edgewise.
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Heard at least once a day on 122.8 in the Chicago area
Is the restaurant at Morris still open?
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and then there is an ensuing conversation about it closing for a 2nd time.
 
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