Crosswinds the last 50 feet from landing

livitup

livitup

Pre-takeoff checklist
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livitup
Hi all,

We've been having some interesting weather in the mid-atlantic the last few months. Seems like there hasn't been more than one or two lessons where the wind has not been: variable, gusty, and (to some extent) across the runway.

My CFI and I have been doing pattern work for quite a while. I can take off and fly the pattern just fine, including correcting for the wind while on the extended runway centerline, and in the pattern.

Where I seem to lose it EVERY FREAKING TIME, is on very short final, from about 50 feet off the runway until touchdown. Invariably, there is a gust or direction shift, and I need to correct quickly, and I don't do it, and my CFI has to actually land the plane.

What am I missing here? What control inputs are correct? What should I start chanting to myself about 60 seconds before landing? How can I get past this?

Thanks in advance!
 
quit worrying about the crosswind correction before 50 feet. between wind gradient, mechanical turbulence, etc etc, everything changes below 50 feet and if you've already got one correction in your are unlikely to want to change it. Crosswinds, especially gusty crosswinds, are a dynamic situation and as a result you need to be dynamic in your response and correction. Crosswind corrections are not a Ronco oven, you can not set it and forget it.
 
Perhaps a victim of the rigidity of the slip method? or is that crab?
 
You have to correct for whatever the wind is doing from the time you start your engine until the time you shut it down.
 
what you need to do is stop worrying about it -

at the end of the day the point is to put the airplane on the ground on the centerline facing the right direction. Thats all you need to do. Thinking about it does not make it so. Doing it makes it so.

I know it sounds incredibly unhelpful - but you need to turn off the brain and the chants and the mnemonics and all the other stuff that gets in the way of landing.

Last Friday I landed at my home airport - Runway 26L. Winds were 300 9G12. I was in the flare and the airplane weathervaned a little bit. So now I'm not facing the right direction but a little bit into the wind. You simply keep the nose off [which means pull a little bit more] and use the rudder to adjust - releasing the rudder just as the nose wheel touches - you get that feel through practice, patience and being calm and just fixing whats wrong. You have lots of time even on a 3000' runway at 45knots in a Skyhawk - use it.
 
Instead of focusing on the rigidity and crabs,

You might try flying a few low approaches on a gusty crosswind day without worrying about slipping or landing. Just fly down to about 10agl over the numbers and go around. So you can get a feel for how the wind changes as you approach the ground, and know what to expect.


I'll try to describe what landing with 10 knot crosswind might feel like.

400 agl its smooth but I am crabbing a fair amount to compensate for the xwind. Around 125 agl I feel some bumps from the wind blowing over the tops of the trees. At 20 agl the bumps are weakened and the crosswind has lessened in the shelter of trees surrounding the field.

At 20 agl I pull the power out, begin to round out and slip. Push the nose in-line with the runway and dropping the windward wing. Roll up a little trim, hold the slip inputs and set it down on one wheel.

Holding the same aileron correction and steering with rudder until the other wheel is down. Then as the plane slows, maintain a constant pressure on the ailerons and as the plane slows allow the deflection to increase to full.


What can possibly go wrong? :rofl:
 
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dell30rb said:
Instead of focusing on the rigidity and crabs,

You might try flying a few low approaches on a gusty crosswind day without worrying about slipping or landing. Just fly down to about 10agl over the numbers and go around. So you can get a feel for how the wind changes as you approach the ground, and know what to expect.


I'll try to describe what landing with 10 knot crosswind might feel like.

400 agl its smooth but I am crabbing a fair amount to compensate for the xwind. Around 125 agl I feel some bumps from the wind blowing over the tops of the trees. At 20 agl the bumps are weakened and the crosswind has lessened in the shelter of trees surrounding the field.

At 20 agl I pull the power out, begin to round out and slip. Push the nose in-line with the runway and dropping the windward wing. Roll up a little trim, hold the slip inputs and set it down on one wheel.

Holding the same aileron correction and steering with rudder until the other wheel is down. Then as the plane slows, maintain a constant pressure on the ailerons and as the plane slows allow the deflection to increase to full.


What can possibly go wrong? :rofl:
Click to expand...

180* wind shift while on one wheel:rofl:
 
Your trouble is with the period of transition from graceful flying machine to cantankerous rolling contraption with a steering wheel that doesn't work. It will all improve with practice. As your flying speed decreases your control inputs need to be increased accordingly to compensate. It's not something you can get from a textbook, you'll just pick it up through experience. Be patient.
 
Thanks for the replies so far.

So what I have taken away from this so far is mostly "shut up and do it", which is the same advise my CFI has been giving me, but to an engineering-brain-type like myself, it's hard to take this advice to heart.

Two problems I have are weathervaning due to a sudden gust, and one wing going up due to a sudden gust (updraft?) To fix these, should I:

Fix weathervaning with a quick jab of rudder (only) to point the nose back down the runway?

Fix wings not level by a quick jab of aileron (only?) to get the wings back level?

Don't I need to be worried about being uncoordinated so close to stall speed? Or is the correction so quick (in theory) that it's not an issue?

Sorry if I am overanalyzing this, but it's what I need to do to get my brain to perform.

P.S... maintaining the correct crab angle, and transitioning out of it to align with the runway is not the problem. The problem is that the plane ends up half-way to upside down and I've got like 0.93 seconds to fix it.
 
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tonycondon said:
Crosswinds, especially gusty crosswinds, are a dynamic situation and as a result you need to be dynamic in your response and correction.
Click to expand...

This. But I think I'm too afraid to do the wrong thing and bend the plane, so I get frozen. Learning what the right corrections are, to correct each possible "uncorrected" situation, is what I need to do. Is this even possible without simply experiencing and training in each possible condition?
 
livitup said:
Thanks for the replies so far.

So what I have taken away from this so far is mostly "shut up and do it", which is the same advise my CFI has been giving me, but to an engineering-brain-type like myself, it's hard to take this advice to heart.

Two problems I have are weathervaning due to a sudden gust, and one wing going up due to a sudden gust (updraft?) To fix these, should I:

Fix weathervaning with a quick jab of rudder (only) to point the nose back down the runway?

Fix wings not level by a quick jab of aileron (only?) to get the wings back level?

Don't I need to be worried about being uncoordinated so close to stall speed? Or is the correction so quick (in theory) that it's not an issue?

Sorry if I am overanalyzing this, but it's what I need to do to get my brain to perform.

P.S... maintaining the correct crab angle, and transitioning out of it to align with the runway is not the problem. The problem is that the plane ends up half-way to upside down and I've got like 0.93 seconds to fix it.
Click to expand...

Keep it simple:

1. Keep plane tracking to the runway (you may be crabbed)
2. If crabbing and kicking. Kick the b*tch at about 30-40 feet and go wing low into the wind. Maintain center line.
3. In the flare: hold it off, but don't just wait for the ground to come up and kiss the wheels ... if something changes, adjust.

#1 will give your brain a rest
#2 will avoid sudden wing lifts or diversions close to the ground
#3 will keep your CFI from yelling at the last second:lol:

Regarding your "P.S." ... that happens when you try to neutralize the controls too soon. It's ok to land and roll on one wheel.
 
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livitup said:
Thanks for the replies so far.

So what I have taken away from this so far is mostly "shut up and do it", which is the same advise my CFI has been giving me, but to an engineering-brain-type like myself, it's hard to take this advice to heart.

Two problems I have are weathervaning due to a sudden gust, and one wing going up due to a sudden gust (updraft?) To fix these, should I:

Fix weathervaning with a quick jab of rudder (only) to point the nose back down the runway?

Fix wings not level by a quick jab of aileron (only?) to get the wings back level?

Don't I need to be worried about being uncoordinated so close to stall speed? Or is the correction so quick (in theory) that it's not an issue?

Sorry if I am overanalyzing this, but it's what I need to do to get my brain to perform.

P.S... maintaining the correct crab angle, and transitioning out of it to align with the runway is not the problem. The problem is that the plane ends up half-way to upside down and I've got like 0.93 seconds to fix it.
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of "quick jabs" because pressure is needed, not just movement. Yes, use the rudder to align the longitudinal axis with the centerline. You will find that the rudder is the most effective control at low speeds, and that the low wing will rise a tad in reaction to the rudder. Use enough aileron to keep the airplane from drifting. IOW, divide your body in half and assign each half a responsibility: the half from the waist down is in charge of keeping the airplane pointed down the runway, gust or no gust; the half from the waist up is in charge of stopping drift.

I trained a couple of paraplegics through their flight training; they used hand controls: left hand for the yoke, right hand for rudder and throttle. Newton's first law of motion says that a moving body will continue in the same direction if not affected by an outside force (sorry for the paraphrase, Isaac!), so if the airplane is moving parallel to the runway centerline when it touches down it will continue to move parallel to the runway unless you do something to upset the applecart...the paraplegics just removed rudder pressure once a wheel was on the surface and let Newton take over from there.

Bob Gardner
 
livitup said:
This. But I think I'm too afraid to do the wrong thing and bend the plane, so I get frozen. Learning what the right corrections are, to correct each possible "uncorrected" situation, is what I need to do. Is this even possible without simply experiencing and training in each possible condition?
Click to expand...

The one thing you do not want to do in that critical end of flight phase is become a passenger. You should also avoid any sort of mental commitment to landing. If the winds are really wonky then it's more of a docking attempt, if it's not right then pour on the coals and keep flying. You've got plenty of fuel and you are perfectly safe while in the air. In variable gusting conditions one attempt may seem impossible while the next one may be a piece of cake so just keep trying until it works or until your fuel situation tells you it's time to go somewhere else.

You should always have enough fuel to go to an alternate because of any contingency. It may not be winds, it may be that a twin just landed gear up ahead of you and the only runway is unavailable. It could be a lot of things.
 
livitup said:
Fix weathervaning with a quick jab of rudder (only) to point the nose back down the runway
Fix wings not level by a quick jab of aileron (only?) to get the wings back level?

Don't I need to be worried about being uncoordinated so close to stall speed?
Click to expand...
Yes, yes, and no.
You will never be "coordinated" when landing. You point the nose with rudder only, and keep wings level or banked into wind with ailerons only.
 
One of my favorite lines is from a simulator instructor teaching instrument procedures back in the day: "Flying is like driving, just different." Reading your struggles and the replies verifies the statement, as I have just started teaching my son to drive.

I am sure, like the rest of us, you make small corrections to track down the lane of a road all the time, not even thinking about it. My son started by bouncing between the yellow and white lines. He has gotten to the point of snaking his way down the road. Some day he will go in a smoothly conforming line and not even think about it.

The same will happen to your landings. Don't over think the dynamics of the situation, know the basics, but develop a feel. It will click (technical term) one day. Enjoy your success, don't dwell on the learning points.
 
I was recently struggling like you and if you search, you will find a long thread on crosswind landings I started a few weeks back. I learned that I was not using the rudders like I should. Wake up your feet and feel what you are doing with them. Once I started focusing on the rudders more and actually making them do what I wanted them to do, I felt 10000% more in control of the airplane. I'm only a student, so I will leave my advise to that. :)
 
Landing is a ground reference maneuver. Make the airplane go where you want it to be in relation to the ground.
Try this - it also works for taxiing - don't worry about making the airplane go where you want it to go - don't let it go where you don't want it to go.
The key is to not get behind the airplane. At the first indication that a correction is needed, start feeding it in. Feed in more as more is demanded. Don't "jab" so much as apply an appropriate amount of input. If you have gusty crosswinds, you maybe very, very active on the controls as you try to stay ahead of or at least right with the plane. Little, timely inputs will obviate the need for later big inputs often.
Keep in mind that you can often predict mechanical turbulence. Knowing the wind direction and speed, your CFI should be helping you anticipate that wind will burble over those trees, that hangar, etc. Your mind is ready when the gust hits.
1. Obey the ground (make the plane go where the ground tells you to be)
2. Trust your body - sight and body senses are generally pretty good in VFR
3. Be active, early and easy - start input at the first indication - add as needed, relax as needed
4. Fly it all the way to the hangar - don't "quit" when the wheels are down (another gust could have you skipping). Flying it "through" the landing helps you stay focused on the landing.
5. Make the plane do what you want it to do. This is a mindset.
 
Just another thought: Go fly with a different instructor once or twice. Sometimes hearing things explained in a different way or just a different tone of voice can make it click.
 
Get the airplane aligned with the runway (and your track) with the rudder for touchdown. Keep the airplane from moving sideways with ailerons. Coordinated, wings level, etc. are not a consideration.

You can carry a crab down into the flare, but you want to phase it out before you touch down.

In theory.

In practice, if you pretty much hit the pavement, your "land-o-matic" gear will do it's thing and eventually the airplane will come to a stop.;)
 
Read Mr. Gardner's advice, above -- the main thing that jumps out at me is that one rarely makes corrections in "quick jabs"; rather, you may corrections to the extent, and for the duration, necessary to change the condition you're correcting.

To put it another way, I think you are regarding the process as "digital," instead of "analog"; Stop thinking in terms of single corrections, applying instead a smooth flow of adjustments as required by the aircraft movement. And, don't worry that it doesn't come to you instantly; with practice, and it will become more natural for you.

I used to be substantially intimidated by 8 kn of wind; now, (depending, of course, upon the runway upon which I am landing) 15 to 25 kn of wind is not a big deal.
 
Stop thinking. Forget crabbing on final slip it all the way down. Pedal thingies to point in the right direction, airelons as needed to stop the drift. Forget about wings level or coordination. If you get over the idea of it looking smooth and graceful to your brain, you will then do the proper thing to fly smooth and graceful. Stop thinking.
 
There is something to that. These days, I find myself making crosswind corrections almost automatically, even when I don't know what the wind is precisely. And I greased two ~10 knot gusty crosswind landings yesterday. Even with a windsock, it doesn't tell you what's going on 1000 feet downwind, or much of anything when it's swiveling. Overflying WVI, I called 27 because the windsock favored it, then changed it to 20 15 seconds later (still 500 ft over TPA) when it came about. 20 is the usual runway there.
 
livitup said:
So what I have taken away from this so far is mostly "shut up and do it", which is the same advise my CFI has been giving me, but to an engineering-brain-type like myself, it's hard to take this advice to heart.
Click to expand...

From an engineering point of view, you're the part of a feedback system that senses the results, applies a correction, looks at the results, applies a correction, etc., etc.
 
livitup said:
This. But I think I'm too afraid to do the wrong thing and bend the plane, so I get frozen.
Click to expand...

A feedback system that freezes up would definitely be a problem. If it's any help, remember that your instructor is there as an additional, highly effective feedback system to rescue the situation if you do the wrong thing.

Learning what the right corrections are, to correct each possible "uncorrected" situation, is what I need to do. Is this even possible without simply experiencing and training in each possible condition?
Click to expand...

Your brain is in the process of growing new physical connections to handle an unfamiliar task. It can be uncomfortable, but it takes time and repetition. Fortunately, instructors can teach us ways of making the process more efficient. I face this process as a musician as well.
 
Just fly the plane

In the flare (which should be less pronounced) step on the centerline with the pedal and maintain wings level with aileron.

Sound like you WAY over slipping and far to early...don't think about the slip..think about flying the plane....all the way through the rollout.
 
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taters said:
Just fly the plane

In the flare (which should be less pronounced) step on the centerline with the pedal and maintain wings level with aileron.

Sound like you WAY over slipping and far to early...don't think about the slip..think about flying the plane....all the way through the rollout.
Click to expand...
No sir. Ailerons are used to correct drift all the way to rolling speed. If that means that a wing is low, so be it.
 
I for the first time the other day had a crosswind that I simply could not land with. I was in the Flybaby and made two attempts at it and aborted both times at about 20 feet. I was quite convinced that I was going to strike my wing onto the runway with the amount of slip I had in had I got any lower. It was a 24 knot direct crosswind :)

After that I switched to plan B and figured out a way to land more into the wind.
 
Jaybird180 said:
No sir. Ailerons are used to correct drift all the way to rolling speed. If that means that a wing is low, so be it.
Click to expand...

Gee do you think so ?:)
Its a training technique ...what do you think the student will do to maintain wings level? put in the correct amount of aileron:yes: Ive watched it work hundred and hundreds of times....also note my comment fly the plane through the rollout
 
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Palmpilot said:
From an engineering point of view, you're the part of a feedback system that senses the results, applies a correction, looks at the results, applies a correction, etc., etc.
Click to expand...

And all the stuff we learned in engineering school about feedback delay affecting stability is really, really relevant. Rate of change of inputs should not exceed the feedback delay. That means NO sudden changes.

In non-geek, don't overcontrol. Gradual inputs are more stable, but more laggy. Stability is much more important, but there is an optimal rate that trades them off the best.
 
When I was a kicker in college, the field goals I missed I always traced to thinking about kicking the ball as I was kicking the ball...you can't do that. You just have to let it flow in a natural motion...The last ball I kicked was good from 53 yards as time expired. I don't even remember kicking it.......


When you are flaring and thinking about the crosswind technique at the same time it tends to turn out pretty unnatural and undesirable. Just relax and land the plane.
 
livitup said:
Hi all,

We've been having some interesting weather in the mid-atlantic the last few months. Seems like there hasn't been more than one or two lessons where the wind has not been: variable, gusty, and (to some extent) across the runway.

My CFI and I have been doing pattern work for quite a while. I can take off and fly the pattern just fine, including correcting for the wind while on the extended runway centerline, and in the pattern.

Where I seem to lose it EVERY FREAKING TIME, is on very short final, from about 50 feet off the runway until touchdown. Invariably, there is a gust or direction shift, and I need to correct quickly, and I don't do it, and my CFI has to actually land the plane.

What am I missing here? What control inputs are correct? What should I start chanting to myself about 60 seconds before landing? How can I get past this?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

If you want a chant, it should be "make it look right."
 
taters said:
When I was a kicker in college, the field goals I missed I always traced to thinking about kicking the ball as I was kicking the ball...you can't do that. You just have to let it flow in a natural motion...The last ball I kicked was good from 53 yards as time expired. I don't even remember kicking it.......


When you are flaring and thinking about the crosswind technique at the same time it tends to turn out pretty unnatural and undesirable. Just relax and land the plane.
Click to expand...

Yup. This book has a section on performing without thinking and training to get there. Author is a world champion skydiver and coach.
 
taters said:
When you are flaring and thinking about the crosswind technique at the same time it tends to turn out pretty unnatural and undesirable. Just relax and land the plane.
Click to expand...

My wife and I was cleared into a Class D on a 5 mile final and I was explaining crosswind to her to prepare her for the one-wheel landing that I would make. I was trying to explain to her that I wasn't showing off that it was required due to the amount of wind and the offset from the runway.

Upon touchdown, there was no crosswind, both mains touched simultaneously, AND it was a terrible landing (by my own standards).:mad2:
 
Jaybird180 said:
My wife and I was cleared into a Class D on a 5 mile final and I was explaining crosswind to her to prepare her for the one-wheel landing that I would make. I was trying to explain to her that I wasn't showing off that it was required due to the amount of wind and the offset from the runway.

Upon touchdown, there was no crosswind, both mains touched simultaneously, AND it was a terrible landing (by my own standards).:mad2:
Click to expand...

I like to save those landings for when there are 3 holding short and about 7 in the run-up area to critique the landing.:rofl:
 
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