Crosswind landing rollout issues.

I have essentially no time in 172s and very little in Cessnas period. So I'll ask a question. How much adverse yaw does a 172 have? In airplanes I fly, all taildraggers, adverse yaw is significant. Aileron then becomes a significant steering mechanism. Opposite aileron is really important in a crosswind and/or a steering maneuver. Having said that, did I read correctly that the airplane is going right regardless of the crosswind direction? If so there is something else going on.
 
dtuuri said:
Almost every "driver" of an airplane I know retracts flaps after landing. Masters of the art don't.
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.Art Mattson, who was the undisputed master of the Cherokee, recommended full flaps for all landings, crosswind or no, and retracting after touchdown on rollout to load the wheelso to keep it on the ground and rolling straight. He also had a technique to clear obstacles that requires two notches of flaps at rotation on the takeoff roll. When you're a good driver, you're not afraid to use the tools at hand.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
.Art Mattson, who was the undisputed master of the Cherokee, recommended full flaps for all landings, crosswind or no, and retracting after touchdown on rollout to load the wheelso to keep it on the ground and rolling straight. He also had a technique to clear obstacles that requires two notches of flaps at rotation on the takeoff roll. When you're a good driver, you're not afraid to use the tools at hand.
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Had a CFI teach me that on a Rental Checkout in an Arrow. I think we were practicing a soft, short field take off with obstacles. It was first notch for the roll and pop the second notch right at lift off. It worked just fine, but I didn't like taking my hand off the throttle to pop the second notch
 
geezer said:
For a new pilot, solo, another good way to find the proper approach speed is to set up approach configuration at 3,000 feet or higher, slow the plane until the stall horn sounds, add 5 K, and you have the best speed to fly the approach.
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Dangerous advice. Those silly stall warnings are notoriously inaccurate and variable. The Cessna manuals say to set them so they sound at five to ten knots above the stall break. There's a five-knot variability right there. I have found them outside that range, too high or too low, and some of them are reluctant to sound at all. They are a pain to adjust, so most airplanes just end up with horns that just don't work right or at the right time. The mechanic has to make an adjustment and then he has to fly the airplane--or have a pilot fly it-- and note the indicated airspeeds where it sounds and where the stall breaks, and make corrections for calibrated airspeed. Then he might have to do that some more. Gets expensive. And how many pilots are willing to take the airplane right to stall? Too few. In Canada we do it.

Been there, done that.
 
ebetancourt said:
I have essentially no time in 172s and very little in Cessnas period. So I'll ask a question. How much adverse yaw does a 172 have? In airplanes I fly, all taildraggers, adverse yaw is significant. Aileron then becomes a significant steering mechanism. Opposite aileron is really important in a crosswind and/or a steering maneuver. Having said that, did I read correctly that the airplane is going right regardless of the crosswind direction? If so there is something else going on.
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Never rely on adverse yaw effect to steer an airplane (except a floatplane in slow taxi). Use the rudder. Using opposite aileron ina crosswind would mean banking away from the wind, sure to bust the airplane.
 
The flight is not over just because the wheels are on the ground. Anytime there is airflow over the wings, front-to-back, there is lift. It might not be enough to lift the airplane off the ground, but it sure is there, and that's why airplanes want to drift on the runway in a crosswind. Fly the airplane until it is stopped; more and more aileron as the speed drops off in the rollout. The wind's vector against the airplane increases as it slows, making aileron control ever more critical. Suppose we have a 25-knot wind at 90° to the runway, and we're touching down at 50 kt; the angle of the wind at the airplane is at 26° at touchdown, increasing to 45° at 25 knots on the runway, 59°at 15 knots, and ending up at 90° when you stop.

And don't use excess speed in the approach and landing; that just aggravates the traction problem, because that airplane will land flatter and you can't lower the nose to reduce the AOA and kill some lift. Remember, AOA and airspeed are inextricably linked. If you're landing a trike three-point, you're way too fast and you might have an unhappy incident awaiting you.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
But I haven't seen anyone give what I think is the best way of doing that: Whatever *pressure* you're putting on the controls at touchdown is what you want to hold.
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Actually, you want to increase the pressure as you slow down and your ailerons becomes less effective. When all three points are on the ground, you should have full deflection because you aren't going fast enough to fly again.

Wasn't there a video posted just in the last day or so about a Mooney that turned a landing into a wheels up when the copilot retracted gear rather than flaps at touchdown?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Yes. Most any high-wing Cessna will fly, in ground effect with flaps, at a speed where control is marginal, or worse. (I have a trophy propeller from an incident in those conditions.) Get those flaps up, or use less of them, or even none of them. My favorite steep approach with a crosswind involves no flaps and a sideways airplane.
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With manual flaps once you get runway assured take the power out and almost use the flap handle like a collective
 
bflynn said:
Actually, you want to increase the pressure as you slow down and your ailerons becomes less effective.
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Not unless you're flying something that has an aileron-rudder interconnect or something else that's interfering with aileron control forces in some way. By keeping the same *pressure* (which results in increasing *deflection* of the controls while slowing) you're essentially keeping the correction forces the same.

When all three points are on the ground, you should have full deflection because you aren't going fast enough to fly again.
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If you increase the AoA quickly enough after touchdown, you sure can be flying again, and that's why you don't want to increase pressure, you want to keep pressure the same and increase deflection. Taken to the extreme, increasing pressure after touchdown would result in lifting a wing if it was done quickly enough.

Wasn't there a video posted just in the last day or so about a Mooney that turned a landing into a wheels up when the copilot retracted gear rather than flaps at touchdown?
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Haven't seen it, but this is the second time I've heard of it and I'm eager for a look. Anyone got a link?
 
Dan Thomas said:
Never rely on adverse yaw effect to steer an airplane (except a floatplane in slow taxi). Use the rudder. Using opposite aileron ina crosswind would mean banking away from the wind, sure to bust the airplane.
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Did not mean to imply that. The ailerons are a useful addition to the rudder, essential in some airplanes - my 1929 ATO for example. Opposite to the rudder which means into the wind doesn’t it?
 
bflynn said:
Actually, you want to increase the pressure as you slow down and your ailerons becomes less effective. When all three points are on the ground, you should have full deflection because you aren't going fast enough to fly again.

Wasn't there a video posted just in the last day or so about a Mooney that turned a landing into a wheels up when the copilot retracted gear rather than flaps at touchdown?
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I’m not so sure it’s ‘pressure’ you increase as it slows down. What’s the word I’m looking for here, amplitude? Anyway you have to move the control surface ‘farther’ to get the same effect when you slow down. But does the ‘pressure’ increase? I don’t think so. You hit on it with ‘full deflection.’
 
As I'm sure has been said, just keep your crosswind correction in. A lot of pilots release the correction once they touch down. My instructor says it's like being pregnant. You are are or you aren't. There's no such thing as being a little pregnant, and there's no such thing as a little crosswind correction on the ground. It's always a full correction.
 
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luvflyin said:
I’m not so sure it’s ‘pressure’ you increase as it slows down. What’s the word I’m looking for here, amplitude? Anyway you have to move the control surface ‘farther’ to get the same effect when you slow down. But does the ‘pressure’ increase? I don’t think so. You hit on it with ‘full deflection.’
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Exactly! Pressure stays the same, deflection increases until you hit full deflection as you slow.
 
mryan75 said:
As I'm sure has been said, just keep your crosswind correction in. A lot of pilots release the correction once they touch down. My instructor says it's like being pregnant. You are are or you aren't. There's no such thing as being a little pregnant, and there's no such thing as a little crosswind correction on the ground. It's always a full correction.
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The way I taught crosswinds was "full aileron into the wind as you begin the takeoff roll, reducing deflection (but not entirely) as the controls become effective." Landing was the flip side: "As the airplane slows, increase aileron deflection into the wind until you have full deflection at taxi speed."

Bob Gardner
 
dtuuri said:
Almost every "driver" of an airplane I know retracts flaps after landing. Masters of the art don't.
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Not that I consider myself a "Master", but I think I've just been insulted.

Stewartb said:
BS. Come operate in and out of short, narrow, obstructed strips in the wind and there are two types of pilots. Those who manipulate flaps and those who stay home.
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My home drome is 2672x36 with displaced thresholds at both ends ( 452' and 242'). I fly a 1979 Piper Warrior II.

Chip Sylverne said:
.Art Mattson, who was the undisputed master of the Cherokee, recommended full flaps for all landings, crosswind or no, and retracting after touchdown on rollout to load the wheels to keep it on the ground and rolling straight. He also had a technique to clear obstacles that requires two notches of flaps at rotation on the takeoff roll. When you're a good driver, you're not afraid to use the tools at hand.
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I've always landed full flaps. The few times I've tried with less, my airspeed and rollout speed was disconcerting, and the rollout was too long. Not a good idea if you're landing at 1800' Cashmere (8S2) or 1750' Camano (13W) or downhill on 26 at Sekiu (11S) or downhill on 25 at Oak Harbor (OKH, 3% slope).

I've always taken off with one notch of flaps unless I'm on an immense runway, but I've never tried Art's flap-pop takeoff. Every time I'm at KBVS with its giant (5500x100) runway, I think of it, then it never happens. Maybe next time.
 
A few people mentioned inadvertently holding in the rudder correction when the nose wheel touches down. I found myself doing that again recently. If the crosswind is strong enough, you have a lot of rudder correction in at touchdown and it is the same direction as the crosswind. If you have a left crosswind and have left aileron in to track the centerline, you a fair amount of right rudder in to bring the nose back to the centerline. Make sure your not holding in that rudder correction too long. I still have to remind myself to take out rudder as the nose touches.
 
luvflyin said:
Are there airplanes where it’s really that easy to retract the gear when you think you’re retracting the flaps? How many times has this actually happened?
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And why no squat switch to disable to gear motor when it's on the ground?
 
Jim_CAK said:
A few people mentioned inadvertently holding in the rudder correction when the nose wheel touches down. I found myself doing that again recently. If the crosswind is strong enough, you have a lot of rudder correction in at touchdown and it is the same direction as the crosswind. If you have a left crosswind and have left aileron in to track the centerline, you a fair amount of right rudder in to bring the nose back to the centerline. Make sure your not holding in that rudder correction too long. I still have to remind myself to take out rudder as the nose touches.
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A Piper and many others have solid steering link between the rudder and nosewheel, and if that nosewheel touches with the rudder deflected you can get a swerve. Cessna has bungee rods between the rudder bar and nosewheel and the nosewheel will align itself with the direction of travel when it touches down and its centering cam unlocks. Not much swerving there.

Just use the controls, including the rudder, to get the airplane to do what you want it to do. Shouldn't have to think about it much.
 
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PPC1052 said:
And why no squat switch to disable to gear motor when it's on the ground?
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There are airplanes with the squat switches on the nosegear. Cessna's retractable high-wing airplanes are like that, since it's impossible to put a squat switch on a leaf- or rod-spring main gear. There are no moving parts on touchdown to actuate it. And after touchdown, even with the nose on the runway, that nosegear can remain extended enough in the rollout to keep the switch closed and allow a pilot to retract the gear. The mains won't retract with the weight on them, but that nosewheel sure will. Sticky nose oleos add to the risk, as can an aft CG or a soft-field technique, holding the nose up.

If you're gonna fool with the flaps in the rollout, use your head and get the right lever. Even low-wingers can suck the gear up. A school near us wrecked both their twin trainers in one week when students retracted the gear instead of the flaps immediately after touchdown, when the main-gear squat switches were still closed. That can happen with the nose well up and lots of airspeed. Almost no weight on the mains. Like any airplane in any landing, just having the wheels on the ground doesn't mean the flying is done.
 
This has been a good thread. I have occasionally felt squirrely on the ground so last landing I looked down as I slowed to taxi speed and noticed I wasn't putting in full aileron deflection. I thought I was but wasn't.
 
iflyvfr said:
This has been a good thread. I have occasionally felt squirrely on the ground so last landing I looked down as I slowed to taxi speed and noticed I wasn't putting in full aileron deflection. I thought I was but wasn't.
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I've noticed a reluctance on the part of many, maybe even most, pilots to actually use the full available deflection of their controls. It's not something we're used to doing in normal operations (except for maybe the slower half of the takeoff or landing roll in a crosswind) so it feels weird and people don't do it, even if they think they are.
 
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