Crosswind landing rollout issues.

[Trever Oakes]

Hello, first thread!

I am a Private Pilot and I recently became Instrument Rated. I am training for my Commercial ticket, and right now I'm just burning away at solo hours. I've been doing cross country flights, but it has been really gusty every day lately.

I have this recurring problem where on rollout from a crosswind (with flaps), the airplane drifts to the right of the runway and it feels like it isn't even on the ground. I touch down at a reasonable touchdown speed, and I reach up for the brakes. But the airplane just begins drifting, and feels like it is skidding/floating and it causes difficulty stopping the airplane. I always slow down enough to correct before it becomes too crazy, but I'm trying to clean my landings up, and I'd like to see if there's anything I could be doing to help this.

 

[RyanB]

Sounds like you must not be holding your crosswind correction in long enough. As the airplane decreases in speed during the rollout, the crosswind correction increases.

 

[Stewartb]

Slow it down. Landing means not having enough speed to fly.

 

[Lowflynjack]

The slower you’re going, the more input it takes and get the flaps up as soon as practical.

 

[sarangan]

Hello, first thread!

I am a Private Pilot and I recently became Instrument Rated. I am training for my Commercial ticket, and right now I'm just burning away at solo hours. I've been doing cross country flights, but it has been really gusty every day lately.

I have this recurring problem where on rollout from a crosswind (with flaps), the airplane drifts to the right of the runway and it feels like it isn't even on the ground. I touch down at a reasonable touchdown speed, and I reach up for the brakes. But the airplane just begins drifting, and feels like it is skidding/floating and it causes difficulty stopping the airplane. I always slow down enough to correct before it becomes too crazy, but I'm trying to clean my landings up, and I'd like to see if there's anything I could be doing to help this.

One possibility could be because you are flying a long final with a side slip. After touchdown, you are basically going from an uncoordinated flight to a coordinated roll out, so you might be instinctively pushing on the rudder during roll out to maintain that same sense of balance. Try switching to a crab-until-flare approach and see if it improves. Just a thought.

 

[falconkidding]

Keep the xwind input in the whole time and aggressively. Should fix it.

 

[denverpilot]

When you reach taxi speed, where are your controls? Are they held at the stops? Are you following through all the way to the taxi so they’re already in the correct position for taxi down to an exit? Follow through.

Speed-wise, get into your POH and figure out your approach speed for your aircraft and flap setting and NAIL it. No ten knots fast. No slow. EXACTLY the right approach speed. I bet that’ll fix a whole lot. Precision.

 

[James331]

Aside from the old rudder to point down the runway, ailerons to keep centered, maybe use less flaps, also depending on your comfort level and type of flaps, dumping the flaps after touchdown can help, always fly the plane all the way to the tie downs

 

[jordane93]

The crosswind landing isn’t done when the wheels hit the ground. Hold your aileron correction in.

 

[Clip4]

Hello, first thread!

I am a Private Pilot and I recently became Instrument Rated. I am training for my Commercial ticket, and right now I'm just burning away at solo hours. I've been doing cross country flights, but it has been really gusty every day lately.

I have this recurring problem where on rollout from a crosswind (with flaps), the airplane drifts to the right of the runway and it feels like it isn't even on the ground. I touch down at a reasonable touchdown speed, and I reach up for the brakes. But the airplane just begins drifting, and feels like it is skidding/floating and it causes difficulty stopping the airplane. I always slow down enough to correct before it becomes too crazy, but I'm trying to clean my landings up, and I'd like to see if there's anything I could be doing to help this.

Rather common error. You are driving the airplane on to the runway then trying to brake before too quickly. Once you touch down, hold the center line with rudder, place the upwind aileron full down, move the control wheel full aft. Let the airplane slow aerodynamically. Then you can apply the breaks.

 

[James331]

Rather common error. You are driving the airplane on to the runway then trying to brake before too quickly. Once you touch down, hold the center line with rudder, place the upwind aileron full down, move the control wheel full aft. Let the airplane slow aerodynamically. Then you can apply the breaks.

Depending on your speed at touchdown and the guests, might don’t want to pull the stick all the way back right away

 

[GeorgeC]

Once you touch down... place the upwind aileron full down...

I thought upwind aileron down was for a quartering tailwind.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sounds like you must not be holding your crosswind correction in long enough. As the airplane decreases in speed during the rollout, the crosswind correction increases.

This is a BIG part of it.

I don't think anyone has ever had a crosswind landing accident before touching down.

The single most common crosswind landing error I see as an instructor is relaxing the crosswind aileron correction on touchdown rather than moving the ailerons to the crosswind taxi position (which may be in the opposite direction with a quartering tailwind).

A close second is not relaxing the rudder correction with a steerable nosewheel and heading to the edge of the runway.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

You don't say what you're flying. Even coming down short final dead on the numbers, my Comanche always feel " light on her feet" during rollout, and in fact is because of the short gear and proximity of wing to runway. I retract the flaps soon after touch down even without an x-wind.
Not a recommended practice with an examiner on board though.

 

[tspear]

Not a recommended practice with an examiner on board though.

Depends on the plane. E.g. in a Cirrus if you check the AFM raising flaps is part of some procedures on landing.
Every example I have found where the admission is to not raise flaps on landing because you may raise the gear traces back to bad Beech design.
The other examples giving why not to raise flaps on landing is because of distraction, as in flap bar/switch is not well positioned. This seems very model specific with pilot dependent.

Tim

Tim


Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk

 

[dtuuri]

In reverse order, here's your problem:

...I'm trying to clean my landings up...

...right now I'm just burning away at solo hours. I've been doing cross country flights...

 

[benyflyguy]

Keep full aileron deflection in after touchdown and get those flaps up as soon as practicable imo. Some ppl as soon as they touch down they neutralize the yoke. In the 182 with 40 set flaps in gusty winds I land with 20 deg flaps

 

[Trever Oakes]

You don't say what you're flying. Even coming down short final dead on the numbers, my Comanche always feel " light on her feet" during rollout, and in fact is because of the short gear and proximity of wing to runway. I retract the flaps soon after touch down even without an x-wind.
Not a recommended practice with an examiner on board though.

I should’ve mentioned that. I’m flying C172s. I was taught not to retract the flaps on touchdown due to the risk of pulling the gear on the ground, but most of the time I fly fixed tricycle gear aircraft. It sounds like it would help a lot with getting some traction under the wheels.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Depends on the plane. E.g. in a Cirrus if you check the AFM raising flaps is part of some procedures on landing.
Every example I have found where the admission is to not raise flaps on landing because you may raise the gear traces back to bad Beech design.
The other examples giving why not to raise flaps on landing is because of distraction, as in flap bar/switch is not well positioned. This seems very model specific with pilot dependent.

Well, in a Cirrus, you are not going to inadvertently retract the gear. That's the reason for the "leave it alone" recommendation.

Most aircraft have a short field procedure involving retracting flaps. I've never been into a field sort enough to need it, including the 1800' strip which used to be my home base.

Funny about the bad Beech design. I know of a number of instances where it has happened with much better designs where the two controls are well separated, like this

 

[Kenny Phillips]

The slower you’re going, the more input it takes and get the flaps up as soon as practical.

Yes. Most any high-wing Cessna will fly, in ground effect with flaps, at a speed where control is marginal, or worse. (I have a trophy propeller from an incident in those conditions.) Get those flaps up, or use less of them, or even none of them. My favorite steep approach with a crosswind involves no flaps and a sideways airplane.

 

[luvflyin]

Depending on your speed at touchdown and the guests, might don’t want to pull the stick all the way back right away

Yeah. If your guests are lightweights you may not want to. If they are heavyweights and help keep the plane on the runway you probably can. Sorry, couldn’t resist I’ll go away now

 

[champ driver]

Clip4 said: ↑
Once you touch down... place the upwind aileron full down...

I thought upwind aileron down was for a quartering tailwind.

He means, place the upwind aileron controls full down, not the actual aileron itself.

 

[luvflyin]

Rather common error. You are driving the airplane on to the runway then trying to brake before too quickly. Once you touch down, hold the center line with rudder, place the upwind aileron full down, move the control wheel full aft. Let the airplane slow aerodynamically. Then you can apply the breaks.

??? Upwind aileron should be up to hold that side of the wing down. I assume you mean the upwind side of the yoke should be down.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Depends on the plane. E.g. in a Cirrus if you check the AFM raising flaps is part of some procedures on landing.
Every example I have found where the admission is to not raise flaps on landing because you may raise the gear traces back to bad Beech design.
The other examples giving why not to raise flaps on landing is because of distraction, as in flap bar/switch is not well positioned. This seems very model specific with pilot dependent.

Tim

Tim


Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk

I think it's prolly more dependent on the DPE. We had one at FDK that would fail you if you touched flaps on rollout, because she made the " mistake " once. Almost every Comanche driver I know retracts flaps as normal ops.

 

[luvflyin]

I thought upwind aileron down was for a quartering tailwind.

Aileron doesn’t change depending on head or tail wind. It’s the elevator you change for taxi when it changes from a crosswind with a headwind component to a ‘quartering’ one

EDIT: Disregard, I’m having a rectal cranial inversion. Read on to post #28

 

[Domenick]

I fly a Warrior and retract flaps on rollout.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I should’ve mentioned that. I’m flying C172s. I was taught not to retract the flaps on touchdown due to the risk of pulling the gear on the ground, but most of the time I fly fixed tricycle gear aircraft. It sounds like it would help a lot with getting some traction under the wheels.

I think I would disagree - If you're working on your commercial, that means you're going to be flying retracts before too long, right? And wing flaps don't send you to the side of the runway. Finally, if you retract the flaps, especially on an airplane like most 172s with electric flaps that are kinda slow, you're going to be taking away some of your drag, and the flaps will be trending toward developing more lift and less drag until they're nearly retracted, which also won't help you.

As many in this thread have stated, you need to keep correcting for the crosswind even on the ground... But I haven't seen anyone give what I think is the best way of doing that: Whatever *pressure* you're putting on the controls at touchdown is what you want to hold. As the plane slows and less air is flowing over the control surfaces, if you hold that same amount of pressure on the controls, you'll deflect the ailerons more and more as you slow down, until you hit the stops.

When you hit the stops, keep the controls there until you turn the airplane off the runway, and at that point, switch to the proper wind corrections for taxiing in whatever direction you're going.

I suspect you're also on the fast side, because the plane is too light on its feet. Be sure to nail the proper approach speed for the aircraft's actual weight. If you're alone in the airplane, that will be less than the specified speed. Also, the C172 POH is particularly bad in that it gives a range of approach speeds.

For example, the 172SP stalls at 48 KCAS (calibrated) and lists 60-70 KIAS (indicated) for approach with full flaps. Normal approaches should be flown at 1.3Vso. In the 172, that would be 48*1.3 = 62.4 KCAS or about 60 KIAS. So, you want to be at 60 knots, not 70. (Insert grumbling about lawyers writing POHs for student pilots here.)

But if you're the only one in the airplane, you need to further correct for weight, which you do by multiplying the square root of the ratio of the actual cross weight to the maximum gross weight by the *calibrated* approach airspeed.

In equation form: Vcorrected KCAS = Vspecified KCAS * sqrt(actual weight/max gross weight)

So, let's say the airplane you're flying weighs 1700 pounds, you've got 30 gallons of fuel on board (180 pounds) at landing, and you weigh 220 pounds. That means the airplane weighs 2100 pounds, and its max gross weight is 2550. So, our correction goes like this:

Vcorrected KCAS = 63 KCAS * sqrt(2100/2550) = 63 KCAS * sqrt(.8235) = 63 KCAS * .9075 = 57 KCAS.

Now, if we correct 57 KCAS to IAS, we get about 52 KIAS! How fast are your approaches? If you're following the book, you may be flying at 70 KIAS on approach, which is about 15 knots CAS too fast! No wonder your plane doesn't want to stick to the ground.

I would recommend you find an *experienced* CFI (not one who is headed for the airlines) ask them about this stuff, and ask them to fly with you and help improve your landings. If you can't find said CFI, try slowing your final approach down a bit at a time until you're comfortable landing at the correct speed.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Aileron doesn’t change depending on head or tail wind. It’s the elevator you change for taxi when it changes from a crosswind with a headwind component to a ‘quartering’ one

Aileron does change, because the direction the air is flowing over the aileron changes. If the wind is from the left and ahead, you want the yoke to the left (aileron up) to push the left wing down - You want the wind hitting the top of the aileron. If the wind is coming from behind and the yoke is still to the left, it'll be hitting the bottom of the aileron and creating lift, so you want the yoke to the right (left aileron *down*) with a left quartering wind so that the wind is still hitting the top of the aileron.

 

[luvflyin]

I’m a believer in getting the flaps up. But then I was raised doing touch and goes in my primary training. You have to get them up. Full stops and taxi back I only remember a few times to practice short/soft field take offs. Do they need to get up right away when landing, no. Can it maybe help sometimes like the crosswind thang we’re talking about, yes. My routine is to point at the gear switch, without getting my finger to close to it, say “that’s the gear” then reach for the flaps, say “this is the flaps” and get them up.

 

[luvflyin]

Aileron does change, because the direction the air is flowing over the aileron changes. If the wind is from the left and ahead, you want the yoke to the left (aileron up) to push the left wing down - You want the wind hitting the top of the aileron. If the wind is coming from behind and the yoke is still to the left, it'll be hitting the bottom of the aileron and creating lift, so you want the yoke to the right (left aileron *down*) with a left quartering wind so that the wind is still hitting the top of the aileron.

Ok. I’m back from slappin myself upside the head and falling on my sword. Post edited

 

[geezer]

I agree with the Cheesehead. Very good explanation of why the book numbers are misleading. For a new pilot, solo, another good way to find the proper approach speed is to set up approach configuration at 3,000 feet or higher, slow the plane until the stall horn sounds, add 5 K, and you have the best speed to fly the approach. This si specifically for the weight and balance at that time, not for every flight

In the days of manual flaps on our Cessna's, I would dump the flaps at about 30 K, all the way from 40 to zero. As Cheesehead points out, with electric, the flaps come up slow, from a very high drag, to max added lift, then less lift, and leaving them down is the winner.

One of my best instructors advised against moving electric flaps while on the runway, to reduce the possibility of a future high performance plane experiencing a wheels up at the worst time. On the taxiway, you can look at what you are doing and avoid error.


Last, a minor disagreement with several here, Quartering crosswinds, yes, keep the same forces as the speed decreases, but AS THE AIRSPEED GOES NEGATIVE ie, wind is flowing from the rear of the plane, stick away from the source is the rule. If this is a strong wind factor, though, you should have landed the other way in most cases.

I landed just ahead of the gust front of a major thunderstorm, and half way down the runway, picked up a sudden 30 K tailwind, and control of the plane was a challenge, tying it down was another.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Almost every Comanche driver I know retracts flaps as normal ops.

I didn't when I flew one regularly.

 

[luvflyin]

Here’s a list of retracts I’ve flown. C210, PARO, PA44, C172RG, C182RG, C177RG. To the best of memory, all them required a very deliberate, positive action to retract the gear. You had to pull out before moving up. Not so the flaps. Are there airplanes where it’s really that easy to retract the gear when you think you’re retracting the flaps? How many times has this actually happened?

 

[Stewartb]

In my Cessna I use full flaps regardless of crosswinds. With any significant wind I retract flaps after touching down. The harder the wind the more aggressively I retract. The advice to use less flaps requires more speed. That’s a bad plan if you’re having landing control issues.

When I had a 172 it wasn’t uncommon to flip the flap switch up when the tires were still about 5’ in the air. The plane stops flying very nicely, which is the point of doing it.

 

[MuseChaser]

Aileron does change, because the direction the air is flowing over the aileron changes. If the wind is from the left and ahead, you want the yoke to the left (aileron up) to push the left wing down - You want the wind hitting the top of the aileron. If the wind is coming from behind and the yoke is still to the left, it'll be hitting the bottom of the aileron and creating lift, so you want the yoke to the right (left aileron *down*) with a left quartering wind so that the wind is still hitting the top of the aileron.

I had a hard time keeping track of the correct control surface inputs for various wind directions in ground ops until my CFI told me "Dive away from a tailwind, climb into a headwind." Solved.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Here’s a list of retracts I’ve flown. C210, PARO, PA44, C172RG, C182RG, C177RG. To the best of memory, all them required a very deliberate, positive action to retract the gear. You had to pull out before moving up. Not so the flaps. Are there airplanes where it’s really that easy to retract the gear when you think you’re retracting the flaps? How many times has this actually happened?

One of the one's I know about personally? 172RG. (Actually two were 172RGs but the other one was on the ground demonstrating the squat switch )

If you know a good aircraft insurance agent, you can probably get the numbers. Enough times to be part of the substantial differential in the premium and underwriting requirements between fixed gear and retracts. Enough for many flight schools and flying clubs to prohibit touch & goes in retracts entirely.

This is a query of the NTSB accident database using the search, inadvertent retraction. It probably has some which don't fit what we are talking about OTOH, since a gear-up is not a "report required" event, there are plenty more which don't make it in. None of the ones I know personally involved a NTSB report.

 

[dtuuri]

Almost every Comanche driver I know retracts flaps as normal ops.

Almost every "driver" of an airplane I know retracts flaps after landing. Masters of the art don't.

 

[Stewartb]

Almost every "driver" of an airplane I know retracts flaps after landing. Masters of the art don't.

BS. Come operate in and out of short, narrow, obstructed strips in the wind and there are two types of pilots. Those who manipulate flaps and those who stay home.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Almost every "driver" of an airplane I know retracts flaps after landing. Masters of the art don't.

Well, I do retract flaps after landing - when I am at a stop past the hold sort line. OTOH I'm no "master."

Drift... I just noticed your "he/she" signature block. Years ago I got into the habit of switching genders in my writing. It made writing about two people easy to call one "he" and the other "she." But I also did it with only one person, sometimes using "he" and sometimes "she" as the generic pronoun. No rhyme or reason and I didn't keep track. There were two interesting comments. One was a woman who called me out for being a male chauvinist pig because the "she" in a post had made a mistake. The other was a guy who decided I had to be a woman because who else could possibly use "she" writing. The latter got a great response from someone who knew me and said, "You go girl!"

 

[luvflyin]

I had a hard time keeping track of the correct control surface inputs for various wind directions in ground ops until my CFI told me "Dive away from a tailwind, climb into a headwind." Solved.

That’s like the thing I use. It’s attack the headwinds and flee the tailwinds. I just remembered the elevator part. The ‘dive’ away from and ‘climb’ into covers the whole thing. Good one, I’m gonna use it.

EDIT: just remembered you want neutral elevator with the head winds. How about attack instead of ‘climb’ into the headwind and ‘dive’ away from the tailwind