Crosswind Landing practice in the Cherokee 6

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Tokirbymd

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Tokirbymd
Crab? Side slip? Combo? Which one do you choose?
When practicing crosswind landings- full stop and taxi back or touch and go? I chose the latter as I didn't want to worry about combining a tough landing and a tough takeoff in limited space with retrimming etc while fighting crosswinds.

 
I did an experiment today regarding crosswind landings. The temperature was +10 C, QNH 30.12, winds 280@22G26 (most 26!!!) favoring (!) our runway 33. So there was a 50 degree crosswind at average speed of (24 x sin (50 degrees)) that means a direct component of about 18 knots. I approached with only 2nd position of flaps at slightly higher than normal airspeed of 70 kts and pointed into the wind. Just above TD I kicked right rudder and put left wing down as required. It was rough as a cob with strong windshear being reported at KCOS because of the mountains to our west and strong winds aloft (50 kts from west at 14k, 25 kts at 10k and our pattern altitude is 8k). Dihedral in the PA 28 series is NOT your friend in crosswinds! Actually I have found that a Cessna 150 is best because it has virtually no dihedral and a big rudder for its size.
 
A few extra kts, less flap, wing down, top rudder, upwind wheel 1st. If unsafe, go elsewhere.
 
Tokirbymd said:
Crab? Side slip? Combo? Which one do you choose?
When practicing crosswind landings- full stop and taxi back or touch and go? I chose the latter as I didn't want to worry about combining a tough landing and a tough takeoff in limited space with retrimming etc while fighting crosswinds.

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I do a flat crab until just below the tops of the trees. Then I transition to a side slip before touchdown. This just feels more natural to me. I also try to come in high and may do a forward slip to drop down nearer to the touchdown zone. A previous instructor taught me a tip: in the base to final turn if you are too high just add a little top rudder and you can slip down in the turn. This also helps if the cross wind is pushing you to the outside of the turn. (PS: Don't forget to lower the nose nose in a slip by pushing slightly forward on the yoke. )
 
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William Pete Hodges said:
I do a flat crab until just below the tops of the trees. Then I transition to a side slip before touchdown. This just feels more natural to me. I also try to come in high and may do a forward slip to drop down nearer to the touchdown zone. A previous instructor taught me a tip: in the base to final turn if you are too high just add a little top rudder and you can slip down in the turn. This also helps if the cross wind is pushing you to the outside of the turn.
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and if your a little slow a great way to end up in a smoking hole due to a base to final spin. really bad idea.
 
unsafervguy said:
and if your a little slow a great way to end up in a smoking hole due to a base to final spin. really bad idea.
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I do not agree. You are supposed to manage your airspeed in a slip by lowering the nose a little. You are already in the bank, adding a little top rudder (with down aileron you may already have) puts you in a slip. Release the rudder and you are out of it. Since you are too high anyway, pushing slightly forward on the yoke ensures a spin will not occur. Too much aft elevator causes stalls and spins, releasing aft pressure or pressing slightly forward prevents them. (Added that reminder to the previous post)
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
How do you figure? A slip is not skid.
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adding top rudder in a turn puts the aircraft in an uncoordinated state, which is what you are intending to do to when you slip the aircraft. an uncoordinated state is required for a spin. the only difference is that with top rudder the aircraft enters an "over the top" spin vs an "under the bottom spin" . is the odds of getting an over the top spin less that that of a under the bottom spin caused by the skid?, I would say yes. but joe average pilot has a lousy track record when getting an any spin. for the average pilot, the safer use of a slip to lose altitude is after the aircraft is wings level. now as i have said many times, the safest method is to learn to fly your aircraft to all the edges of the envelop so when need those skills are there. sadly, the accident statistics prove other wise.
 
William Pete Hodges said:
I do not agree. You are supposed to manage your airspeed in a slip by lowering the nose a little. You are already in the bank, adding a little top rudder (with down aileron you may already have) puts you in a slip. Release the rudder and you are out of it. Since you are too high anyway, pushing slightly forward on the yoke ensures a spin will not occur. Too much aft elevator causes stalls and spins, releasing aft pressure or pressing slightly forward prevents them. (Added that reminder to the previous post)
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i agree with you that when properly done, there is little risk. it is all about energy management. that is the difference between a pilot and someone flying a plane. but we all know what the accident statistics show about inadvertent spins and how many instructors do not understand slips, and spins well.
my biggest complaint is that instructors preach airspeed. you mention energy state to them and its deer in the headlights time. new instructors today are by and large very uniformed about aerodynamics. i would bet most have never seen a copy of aerodynamics for naval aviators let alone read it.
 
unsafervguy said:
adding top rudder in a turn puts the aircraft in an uncoordinated state, which is what you are intending to do to when you slip the aircraft. an uncoordinated state is required for a spin. the only difference is that with top rudder the aircraft enters an "over the top" spin vs an "under the bottom spin" . is the odds of getting an over the top spin less that that of a under the bottom spin caused by the skid?, I would say yes. but joe average pilot has a lousy track record when getting an any spin. for the average pilot, the safer use of a slip to lose altitude is after the aircraft is wings level. now as i have said many times, the safest method is to learn to fly your aircraft to all the edges of the envelop so when need those skills are there. sadly, the accident statistics prove other wise.
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Why is a slip safer after wings are level?
 
The instructor who shared this tip with me was neither young nor uninformed. He pointed out that in the base to final turn you have already banked the airplane for the slip. It is a simple matter to turn that banked turn into a side slip to lose some altitude. This information is true. I don't think the application of that principle is unsafe if you are too high in the turn and the slip is executed properly. Every pilot should practice slips enough to execute them properly when needed, especially if you are doing any short field or grass strip work.

Now, maybe I am a special case. Maybe I know more about stick and rudder flying than alot of the IFR type guys. I do own a Lift Indicator and train with it regularly. But I doubt I am really any better than anyone else. What I do with my bird anyone can do. Entering a slip from a turn is as easy as scratching your arm. It took me a long time to do slips well, but I got there with practice.

What should we do to help reduce stall-spin accidents? I think practicing slow speed maneuvers regularly is the key. I like to get slow enough to do aileron rolls with the yoke on the stops, then do as many maneuvers as I can from there or slightly faster. That includes steep turns, steep descents, and slips. Then, when I feel I have them dialed in, I do short field work. Not really short, just short enough to make sure you are on your game. 4 times the landing roll is a good place to start. Look for practice strips in your area and go to them on a cool day and practice. It is fun and it will make you a better pilot in your airplane.

One Miracle at a time.
 
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Before one turns to base or fine, if the winds are strong, that should already be taken into account. It may require a crab on downwind, adjust the plan if overshooting or undershooting wind.
 
Little doubt that the proper way to handle crosswinds in a SEL plane is to crab down final and transition to a wing low slip before touchdown.

‘Kicking it out’ of the crab without transitioning to the slip is just sloppy. Use that as standard practice with a tailwheel plane and you will get bit.

I’d suggest that a good way to learn and practice the proper technique is to enter the slip right after turning final. Upwind wing down and fuselage aligned with the runway. Left/Right corrections are done with ailerons and fuselage alignment with the runway done with the rudder.

Typically you’ll experience the wind gradient on the way down, that is the wind will tend to decrease as you get closer to the ground. You’ll naturally make the adjustment necessary to stay on track and in alignment.

In high winds you may find yourself unable to maintain a straight path down final because you don’t have enough rudder. In that case, just hold full rudder and maintain the correct path with aileron. You’ll unavoidably be in a crabbing slip at that point. If you hold that as you go down you’ll probably find the wind decrease enough to give you enough rudder to align the plane with the centerline and make a proper one wheel touchdown.

If you don’t have enough rudder to get the plane aligned with the centerline before touchdown, that’s a practical definition of your crosswind limit - go around and go somewhere else.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Cool video!

I had to review some of mine to recall how I land. I mostly crab until the transition. In the real heavy stuff I may hold the crab further into the flare (also depends on gust factor).

I think it’s way too much work side slipping all the way down final.
 
unsafervguy said:
adding top rudder in a turn puts the aircraft in an uncoordinated state, which is what you are intending to do to when you slip the aircraft. an uncoordinated state is required for a spin. the only difference is that with top rudder the aircraft enters an "over the top" spin vs an "under the bottom spin".
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You don't seem to understand the rather spin resistant nature of slips, even in a turn. But if slipping turns are beyond your skill level, nobody will ever force you to do one.
 
Since no one asked me, I'll chime in....

During or just prior* to the flare: rudder to keep the nose parallel with the center line, bank to control the drift. In the end, that's all there is to it. Do not overthink this.


*I do it in the flare because flying down final in a slip is poor form IMO. However, there is nothing unsafe about it and if getting into that slip condition early helps someone, by all means do it.
 
RoscoeT said:
You don't seem to understand the rather spin resistant nature of slips, even in a turn. But if slipping turns are beyond your skill level, nobody will ever force you to do one.
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A slip is in no way spin resistant. A spin requires two elements. A stalled condition and yaw. Yes a slip has less potential for a spin than a skid, but exceeding critical angle of attack in a slip will induce an over the top spin. Your snarky remark about my skill level is funny. My experience level is well beyond the average ga pilot in both varieties of aircraft and flight regimes. The original poster of the post I took difference with edited his post because we both agree That aoa is a factor that needs to be in the equation when Slipping through the base to final turn.
 
unsafervguy said:
A slip is in no way spin resistant.
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Then you clearly haven't actually tried deliberately spinning out of a slip in many airplanes. Unless you jerk the stick back as if to snap roll, most airplanes will not even stall properly if you creep the elevator back too much in a slip to land condition due to blanking of the elevator in the slip.

To say
unsafervguy said:
and if your a little slow a great way to end up in a smoking hole due to a base to final spin. really bad idea.
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is just ******* nonsense. We should all just quit flying and sell our airplanes. I mean if you severely mishandle the controls in lots of situations, you could "end up in a smoking hole". Don't anyone ever actually endeavor to learn to fly their airplanes. Yep, those slipping turns are real airshow stunts LOL.
 
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Here is a great and simple illustration showing the safety of a slip as opposed to the dangers of a skid. The entire video is good but you can cut to the chase and start about three minutes in:

 
I just watched the video about the stall spin scenario of slip vs skid. Very nicely done!
Thank you for sharing.
 
Fly a slightly higher base, +5 KTS airspeed final, establish crab, establish side slip short final.
 
The tail draggers I learned land with did not tolerate mistakes in a cross wind, so you just had to do it
Some of the claims on here make me shake my head in wonder
In general a long slipping final gives your leg a real workout and being lazy I avoid work outs
A long banking final gives me the leans and the other leg a workout
Like many, if not most, I will usually crab on final (called a yaw, y'all) to keep the centerline from drifting.
If I'm looking at the center line out the side window, I find another runway
Just before the fence I will yaw back straight and bank into the wind in a coordinated manner (look ma, I can do two things at once) then just enough top rudder to hold it
It has worked for 60+ years in planes big and small, for me
.
 
I think you need both side slip and crab in your bag of tricks, but I prefer the side slip.

I was trained to crab to short final before the side slip if you plan to use it. I was told that this was for passenger comfort. Sorry though, unless there is a very queasy passenger aboard I will probably be side slipping or forward slipping if necessary once on final.
 
Crosswinds are rarely a thing in my day to day pleasure flying ... but when they exist I prefer the slip to ensure I have the control inputs needed to maintain centerline all the way to the runway. Strongest xwind I experienced was in a 150. That was fun. There was an airliner holding short for departure also. Nothing like having a professional audience probably sharing a laugh.

Actually tend to use the forward slip more for landing at our local Bravo. Nothing like being cleared to land on a short base at 2000 agl. Full forward slip immediately all the way to the threshold. You don’t have to accept but sometimes if it’s busy it might be a hot minute before they can squeeze you in.
 
WRT crosswind technique, there really is only one method, and that is combo. The only variable is when you transition from crab to slip: at the top of your approach, at the bottom, or somewhere in between.

I like to slip as I cross the threshold, just before I round out. At that point, I am looking right down the centerline, so small deviations in alignment and drift are easy to detect. As a taildragger guy, my mind is already laser focused on maintaining runway alignment with my feet, so I just have to correct drift with stick. I don't have to think too much about it that way; everything just kinda happens. Feet then hands. The tap dance becomes second nature or you don't remain a taildragger pilot.

I can see the merit of slipping all the way down final, especially in a large aircraft on a stabilized approach. I personally don't find it as practical for daily use, because winds frequently shift as you get lower, especially at treetop level. But seems like a great way to build skill.

Crabbing only is not a crosswind landing technique; it is a controlled crash. If you were taught that method, get a refund from your CFI. Use the money to get a tailwheel endorsement so you learn what the footrests can do.

If you can slip into a final approach without first crabbing to line up, you are a far more skilled pilot than I.
 
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