Crosswind landing pointers?

[JasonM]

I have recently figured out how to land decently in headwinds and slight tailwinds and low crosswind (1-5 Knots ). I am getting close to solo (at least I was told so) and felt good about it until my lesson this morning. We had direct 90 deg. crosswinds of only 8-10 knots (it felt like a lot more), but I couldn't do anything right.

Any good pointers or good videos anyone knows that could help me. My instructor was telling me all sorts of stuff, but it wasn't sinking in. I felt like I could get the plane close to touching down then things always went wrong making me do go-around's for 50% of landings.

With the wind from the left I would use some right rudder and turn the ailerons into the wind which would be stabilized until close to the ground, then the plane would drift all over the place when trying to reconfigure for landing.

Also is this normal to struggle with?

 

[zaitcev]

I had the same problem and reading the FAA manual H-8083-3A helped me. It's our tax dollars at work. I also switched from the kick-out method to the wing low method, because it does not require as much exactly correct control in just the right time.

 

[JasonM]

I had the same problem and reading the FAA manual H-8083-3A helped me. It's our tax dollars at work. I also switched from the kick-out method to the wing low method, because it does not require as much exactly correct control in just the right time.

I will give that a read. Thank you very much

 

[ChrisK]

8-10 knot direct crosswind is not a small amount, especially for pre solo. Consider that 12 knots is the max demonstrated for many trainers!

 

[Fearless Tower]

As you transition to the flare, shift your focus to the far end of the runway and use the centerline as a gunsight so to speak. That will help greatly as you are using the wing low/slip to maintain the centerline.

 

[JasonM]

8-10 knot direct crosswind is not a small amount, especially for pre solo. Consider that 12 knots is the max demonstrated for many trainers!

That's good to hear. I thought maybe I was going to get laughed at by the guys on here that do those 40 Knot crosswind landings everyday. lol.

 

[LDJones]

Don't over-think it. A crosswind landing is no more than banking toward the wind to counteract the drift, then using the rudder to keep the nose pointed down the center of the runway.

Good luck! They'll come with practice.

 

[JasonM]

As you transition to the flare, shift your focus to the far end of the runway and use the centerline as a gunsight so to speak. That will help greatly as you are using the wing low/slip to maintain the centerline.

I have a hard time focusing on the end of the runway. My instructor tell me to do that too, but I cant seem to get anything out of doing that. It just seems like when I focus on the end of the runway I loose my depth perception in front of me.

I do get into the center line focus though, a lot like your saying. i get that mindset I have from shooting long range rifles. focus and try to keep steady... but, then all goes to hell at the last second and it doesn't matter in this situation

 

[douglas393]

This may sound weird, but the less you think about what you are doing and the why you are doing it, and the more you just fly the plane, the better the landings will be. I had a real hard time with landings in general, and crosswind landings in particular, and a lot of the problems disappeared when I stopped thinking about it. Look out the windshield, and in landings way past the cowl and not what is in front of you, make sure that your track is straight, and adjust with your aerilons to keep your track straight(this will mean crabbing into the wind on a crosswind landing), and when about to land (in the flare)kick in your rudder to straighten the plane out, so it lands straight and not crabbed, and adjust as needed.

Another good training technique is to fly the plane about 4 or 5 feet AGL over the runway at landing velocity fly the length of the runway without landing. You can do this at altitude as well, by keeping your altitude at a certain height, and keeping your course straight.

I also read everything I could about landing in general and spoke to lots of people. In addition, there are probably more threads on aviation bulletin boards about landing than almost anything else.

 

[JasonM]

Don't over-think it. A crosswind landing is no more than banking toward the wind to counteract the drift, then using the rudder to keep the nose pointed down the center of the runway.

Good luck! They'll come with practice.

Thanks for your encouragement.

Well, I am banking on them coming sooner or later. I recently had the same feeling about normal landings and that finally worked itself out. Just hoping this is something that I don't get hung up on for long. I really want to move on in my training away from the traffic pattern and practice area.

 

[Clark1961]

Good luck! They'll come with practice.

Practice, practice, practice. Be light on your feet (toes work best - and keep them on the rudder pedals, not up on the toe brakes), heels on the floor, rotate the ankle. Don't try to use your legs.

Now the most useless things to say: be quick on the controls and don't over-control. Okay, I had to type it. The feel comes with time/practice.

It can be hard learning a good cross-wind landing but very satisfying when you get the technique. I still have a tendency to level out from wing low in the last split second before landing. I have to remind myself every time not to do it...but flying down the runway with one wheel touching is fun and great practice.

 

[JasonM]

This may sound weird, but the less you think about what you are doing and the why you are doing it, and the more you just fly the plane, the better the landings will be. I had a real hard time with landings in general, and crosswind landings in particular, and a lot of the problems disappeared when I stopped thinking about it. Look out the windshield, and in landings way past the cowl and not what is in front of you, make sure that your track is straight, and adjust with your aerilons to keep your track straight(this will mean crabbing into the wind on a crosswind landing), and when about to land (in the flare)kick in your rudder to straighten the plane out, so it lands straight and not crabbed, and adjust as needed.

Another good training technique is to fly the plane about 4 or 5 feet AGL over the runway at landing velocity fly the length of the runway without landing. You can do this at altitude as well, by keeping your altitude at a certain height, and keeping your course straight.

I also read everything I could about landing in general and spoke to lots of people. In addition, there are probably more threads on aviation bulletin boards about landing than almost anything else.

I will try that method of not trying to think about my feet and ailerons so much and just focus on whats happening more. All i hear is my instructor saying "more this, less that, woa.. too much of that" etc.. Then i'm so screwed up that hes taking some control and then I just feel completely worthless at what I just tried to do.

 

[JasonM]

Practice, practice, practice. Be light on your feet (toes work best - and keep them on the rudder pedals, not up on the toe brakes), heels on the floor, rotate the ankle. Don't try to use your legs.

Now the most useless things to say: be quick on the controls and don't over-control. Okay, I had to type it. The feel comes with time/practice.

It can be hard learning a good cross-wind landing but very satisfying when you get the technique. I still have a tendency to level out from wing low in the last split second before landing. I have to remind myself every time not to do it...but flying down the runway with one wheel touching is fun and great practice.

Now there is a BIG change in how I currently use the rudders. I am all legs and holding my heels up off the floor. I honestly have disliked the rudders from day one since my legs will tire some and my feet constantly slip off of the rudders, i am constantly holding my toes off the brakes. Explain the proper way for me to position my feet in some more detail please. maybe this is a problem here.

I'll have to give the one wheel down the runway a shot.

 

[Clark1961]

Now there is a BIG change in how I currently use the rudders. I am all legs and holding my heels up off the floor. I honestly have disliked the rudders from day one since my legs will tire some and my feet constantly slip off of the rudders, i am constantly holding my toes off the brakes. Explain the proper way for me to position my feet in some more detail please. maybe this is a problem here.

I'll have to give the one wheel down the runway a shot.

Beyond reminding one that the heels should be on the floorboards and the toes in the middle (or so) of the rudder pedals I don't know what to say. Don't fly any other way. The foot/ankle is much more sensitive to movement than the whole leg.

You can practice setting in a chair: rotate an imaginary yoke with your wrist and press forward with the toes while keeping the heel mostly in place. The practice exercise helps build muscle memory but it can cause a problem since it's the opposite of learning a coordinated turn. Ya gotta visualize what ya wantta see out the front window while doing them to help the body learn the movements. My instructor had me do what he called Dutch rolls while flying at altitude to help learn the movements. Yoke and opposite rudder. As I understand it, they aren't really Dutch rolls but the name is commonly used - no big deal.

Maybe just talk to your instructor about rudder/foot technique?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Explain the proper way for me to position my feet in some more detail please. maybe this is a problem here.

Simply rest your heels on the floor and place the balls of your feet on the pedals. That is both incredibly more natural and comfortable (especially when you start doing cross-countries). Having that be your natural foot position will also keep you from riding the brakes when you taxi. Control your speed with power and when you really need to apply brakes to stop the airplane, you simply slide your feet up on the pedals to fully depress the brakes. After you have done it a few times, it will seem alot easier and it is an absolute MUST if you ever decide to try flying tailwheels.

Depending on your leg lenght/seat height...etc, you might find it easier to do with boots or a shoe with a heel, or you might be best in very low heel shoes - just depends on you and the airplane.

 

[JasonM]

Beyond reminding one that the heels should be on the floorboards and the toes in the middle (or so) of the rudder pedals I don't know what to say. Don't fly any other way. The foot/ankle is much more sensitive to movement than the whole leg.

You can practice setting in a chair: rotate an imaginary yoke with your wrist and press forward with the toes while keeping the heel mostly in place. The practice exercise helps build muscle memory but it can cause a problem since it's the opposite of learning a coordinated turn. Ya gotta visualize what ya wantta see out the front window while doing them to help the body learn the movements. My instructor had me do what he called Dutch rolls while flying at altitude to help learn the movements. Yoke and opposite rudder. As I understand it, they aren't really Dutch rolls but the name is commonly used - no big deal.

Maybe just talk to your instructor about rudder/foot technique?

Am I supposed to be sliding my heels on the floor? I am assuming that's not what your telling me since that would involve leg movements rather than just feet. Now I feel like the guy who thought he was cool on the golf driving range only to find out I look like a jungle bush whacker.

 

[JasonM]

Simply rest your heels on the floor and place the balls of your feet on the pedals. That is both incredibly more natural and comfortable (especially when you start doing cross-countries). Having that be your natural foot position will also keep you from riding the brakes when you taxi. Control your speed with power and when you really need to apply brakes to stop the airplane, you simply slide your feet up on the pedals to fully depress the brakes. After you have done it a few times, it will seem alot easier and it is an absolute MUST if you ever decide to try flying tailwheels.

Depending on your leg lenght/seat height...etc, you might find it easier to do with boots or a shoe with a heel, or you might be best in very low heel shoes - just depends on you and the airplane.

Currently I am wearing tennis shoes and the pedals are in the arch of my feet. I always feel like its a challenge to keep them gripped on the pedals. You say try boots eh? Well I normally wear pull on cowboy type boots. should I try them instead? I was concerned about being able to have movement for breaking with those on.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Am I supposed to be sliding my heels on the floor?

A little bit....how much depends alot on the seating configuration of the airplane.

 

[redtail]

Simply rest your heels on the floor and place the balls of your feet on the pedals. That is both incredibly more natural and comfortable (especially when you start doing cross-countries). Having that be your natural foot position will also keep you from riding the brakes when you taxi. Control your speed with power and when you really need to apply brakes to stop the airplane, you simply slide your feet up on the pedals to fully depress the brakes. After you have done it a few times, it will seem alot easier and it is an absolute MUST if you ever decide to try flying tailwheels.

Depending on your leg lenght/seat height...etc, you might find it easier to do with boots or a shoe with a heel, or you might be best in very low heel shoes - just depends on you and the airplane.

This...

I was just about to mention proper seat adjustment for your height. You might have to adjust it a few times (before start) to get it just right. I'm 6' and don't like to be too far forward.
Comfortable shoes are important also. I can't fly with dress shoes or boots, I need sneakers

 

[PBristolJr]

Keep it simple:
If the wind is coming from the left, drop your left wing.
Use the rudder to line the plane up with the runway, and land on the left main wheel first.

You don't have to wait until you're 10' from the ground to do this either, start at 500' if you want!

 

[Fearless Tower]

Currently I am wearing tennis shoes and the pedals are in the arch of my feet. I always feel like its a challenge to keep them gripped on the pedals. You say try boots eh? Well I normally wear pull on cowboy type boots. should I try them instead? I was concerned about being able to have movement for breaking with those on.

Resting the pedal on the arch is definitely going to tire you out. Whether or not boots would help or hurt depends on the airplane and your body. In some airplanes the boot heel provides just a little more height to rest your heel on and place the ball of your foot on the base of the pedal. Depending on the airplane this can be more helpful than others.

Personally I prefer boots in most large vintage airplanes and warbirds - the cockpits are bigger and the heel feels better. Boots tend to work well for me in Beech airplanes as well. I don't like them as much in small Cessnas because the angle it puts my foot in is uncomfortable after a while. If you normally wear sneakers, try them resting your heel on the floor and the ball on the pedal and if that doesn't feel right, you could try boots.

 

[ErnDollas]

What you want to do with your feet is put them on the rudder pedals so you don't have them on the toe brakes. So slide your feet down until just the ball of your foot is on the bottom part of the pedal. Naturally your heels will be pushed onto the floor some. That will also prevent you from inadvertantly hitting the toe brakes on landing.

 

[Silvaire]

Sounds like you're doing okay. As advised by others, don't over think it. You use the rudder to keep the nose aligned and the aileron to keep from turning in the direction you're applying the rudder. As you flare and lose speed you'll have to gradually increase those inputs to maintain your track. In the end you should have full aileron into the wind and held there even when taxiing. As you gain experience you may decide that you prefer to just fly down final in a coordinated attitude (meaning the nose will not be aligned with the runway) then apply the needed inputs all at once in a fluid motion - known as crab and kick.

As for foot position on the pedals I suppose that's a matter of personal preference. I consider heels on the floor as flight position and heels on the pedals as ground position. There will probably come a time when you are landing in a good crosswind that you might need a bit of brake to assist in maintaining directional control so heels on the pedals is what you'd want. You'll learn the different techniques as you progress. When the feet are up on the pedals you steer the rudder with your heels rather than the balls of your feet. You may eventually fly an airplane that has heel brakes and that's a whole different technique.

But by and large, by the sounds of it, I'd say you're on the right track.

 

[gismo]

Am I supposed to be sliding my heels on the floor? I am assuming that's not what your telling me since that would involve leg movements rather than just feet. Now I feel like the guy who thought he was cool on the golf driving range only to find out I look like a jungle bush whacker.

Most of the time you'll leave your heels in the same place and just rotate your ankle. In many airplanes you can't easily achieve full deflection this way but with 5-10 Kt of xwind you won't need that much rudder. Iif/when you need full deflection just slide your whole foot forward a bit and then use your ankles for fine tuning.

When you drive a car, do you use your leg to apply brakes or press the gas pedal? Most folks bend their ankles for that as well and if you drive this way, try operating the rudder pedals as if they were a couple of gas pedals in a car.

And WRT looking at the far end of the runway, you don't have to stare solely at that but looking at the spot directly ahead of the nose provides far less visual feedback on your vertical and lateral movement. It is true that focusing on the far end doesn't provide much information about the distance between your wheels and the ground but instead it does give very precise information about your descent rate and lateral movement. I recommend you have your CFI fly the plane down the runway a few feet AGL while maneuvering slightly vertically and laterally while you observe the visual effect focusing at the end of the runway. The repeat the drill with you at the controls (let the CFI operate the throttle) and see if you can keep the plane within a foot or two of the centerline and just as stable vertically (no landing, just go around in the last 1000 ft or so).

 

[denverpilot]

I will try that method of not trying to think about my feet and ailerons so much and just focus on whats happening more. All i hear is my instructor saying "more this, less that, woa.. too much of that" etc.. Then i'm so screwed up that hes taking some control and then I just feel completely worthless at what I just tried to do.

Watch the RATE at which things are changing that you're trying to stop.

Aileron into the upwind side until the DRIFT stops. No more, no less. (In gusty conditions, it's always changing SLIGHTLY but usually not that much...) Set a sight picture of the angle and keep it there to start with. Then see if the drift has stopped.

At the same time... (the hard part for some... walking and chewing gum at the same time)...

Opposite rudder to straighten out the runway in the window ahead, since you're banking and the airplane will want to start to turn.

So think of it as two motions you're watching for... "sliding" left/right, and the runway "twisting" so you're not aligned with it.

Press on the pedal to stop the twisting. Add or remove aileron to stop the sliding.

At first you over-correct... like you said, "oops, too much... not enough... too much..." just dampen your inputs if you see that happening.

One big caveat with that...

Once you get past the stage where your instructor lets you try this in REALLY gusty conditions... you have to be ready to put in LARGE inputs and immediately take them back out as gusts hit... way faster and harder than "normal" conditions.

But you're not there yet... so...

Press on the pedal to stop the runway from twisting away... and add or remove aileron to bank to the upwind side to stop from sliding off to the downwind side.

You'll completely forget about where your feet are, the ankle pivot, all that mechanical stuff eventually and just push... pressure... release pressure... etc. It only feels awkward in the mechanics for a little while. That ends fairly quickly.

 

[lr60plt]

then the plane would drift all over the place when trying to reconfigure for landing.

There shouldn't be any "reconfiguring" for landing. Hold that xwind correction all the way to the ground, then add what little flare you need.

Use the rudder to keep the nose straight down the runway.
Use the ailerons to keep the nose physically over the center-line.

Once you touch down, keep that aileron correction in...and do what it takes to stay on the center-line.

 

[JasonM]

So much good information everyone!! Thank you all very much.

So, I think gotime242 pointed out something I was doing wrong. I was holding everything together good until right before flaring when I would try to level out the plane and use some aileron into the wind at the same time and just couldn't get it in the right position.

Should I be flaring in the same setup I have before touchdown? Basically, if I am left aileron and some right rudder, do I just keep that the same and flair with that setup?

I was definitely changing my setup before the flare, thinking I needed to be more level for the flare.

 

[spiderweb]

Relax and enjoy the challenge. Eventually it will become easier and more intuitive.

One tip (if it hasn't been mentioned already) is to keep and gradually increase aileron input after landing as you slow. (Remember how to taxi in crosswinds?)

 

[Z06_Mir]

Relax and enjoy the challenge. Eventually it will become easier and more intuitive.

One tip (if it hasn't been mentioned already) is to keep and gradually increase aileron input after landing as you slow. (Remember how to taxi in crosswinds?)

This! I struggled with keeping aileron in after touchdown and the airplane drifts. Then you are chasing yourself across the runway wondering why you're doing that. We've had some pretty windy days here in AZ this last week. Like in the 20's and a couple 30kt too. I managed to do a soft field all the way down the runway today but I held in that aileron or else it never would have worked.

One thing to also note, you don't touchdown with both mains at the same time. So if you have left aileron in (remember, it's into the wind for aileron and opposite rudder) your left main will touch down first. Use the rudder to keep the nose straight, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to touch down both mains together and that's totally OK.

 

[lr60plt]

So much good information everyone!! Thank you all very much.

Should I be flaring in the same setup I have before touchdown? Basically, if I am left aileron and some right rudder, do I just keep that the same and flair with that setup?
.

Yes.

-Hold that Xwind correction
-Reduce power / Flare
-Touchdown upwind wheel first
-Increase aileron correction as you slow
-Do what it takes with the rudder to stay on centerline.

 

[Silvaire]

One thing to also note, you don't touchdown with both mains at the same time...

I know it's taught this way for students and it's okay to do it that way but actually it's not necessary. If you execute it perfectly both mains will touch at the same time and at that point you are "landed" and can fully deflect ailerons into wind. That's something that you might not feel comfortable with as a student because you still subconsciously envision the yoke as a steering wheel like in a car but the real steering wheel once you are grounded are your feet and the ailerons no longer have any turning function.

You'll get it, eventually you won't even think about it. The airplane is a wonderful flying machine but it can be a cantankerous beast on the ground and especially during that transition from wonderful flyer to rolling turd.

 

[lr60plt]

If you execute it perfectly both mains will touch at the same time and at that point you are "landed" and can fully deflect ailerons into wind.

Both mains should not touch down at the same time in a crosswind landing.

 

[Silvaire]

Both mains should not touch down at the same time in a crosswind landing.

They certainly can. The only thing a crosswind requires is that you fly the airplane in a slip and you can do that with the wings level and plant both mains at the same time as long as you are able to maintain directional alignment with the runway. There's really no need to over-compensate for the crosswind other than in extreme gusty conditions.

I understand that students are taught to put the upwind wheel down first, it's a skill they need to learn and there's nothing wrong with doing it that way every time if you prefer. I'm just pointing out that it's not a necessity and a perfectly executed crosswind landing, from an observer's point of view, will look no different from a normal landing.

 

[EdFred]

They certainly can. The only thing a crosswind requires is that you fly the airplane in a slip and you can do that with the wings level and plant both mains at the same time as long as you are able to maintain directional alignment with the runway. There's really no need to over-compensate for the crosswind other than in extreme gusty conditions.

I understand that students are taught to put the upwind wheel down first, it's a skill they need to learn and there's nothing wrong with doing it that way every time if you prefer. I'm just pointing out that it's not a necessity and a perfectly executed crosswind landing, from an observer's point of view, will look no different from a normal landing.

Well, the nosewheel can touch down first too, but it shouldn't.

 

[alfadog]

Remember, you are not just adding "some rudder" and "some aileron", you are looking for specific results. The amount of rudder and aileron and, more basically, even the direction of rudder and aileron, is whatever it take to get the desired results. Those results being; rudder to maintain the airplane lined up with the runway long axis (I am not saying centerline because you might not be on the centerline) and aileron to correct for lateral drift.

The best exercise for this is to find a crosswind runway and fly down it at MCA and a foot or two above the asphalt. Then go around. Do that until you have the eye, hand, foot co-ordination down. Then play with it - drift side-to-side, move the nose around.

 

[tmyers]

My best X-wind landings are definitely on the upwind wheel first. The aircraft will settle down onto the downwind wheel in short order.

The hardest thing for me to master was keeping enough rudder in to control the airplane properly. I am still amazed at how things settle down when you get the right combination of inputs into the controls.

 

[Silvaire]

Well, the nosewheel can touch down first too, but it shouldn't.

What's a "nosewheel"?

 

[LDJones]

They certainly can. The only thing a crosswind requires is that you fly the airplane in a slip and you can do that with the wings level and plant both mains at the same time as long as you are able to maintain directional alignment with the runway. There's really no need to over-compensate for the crosswind other than in extreme gusty conditions.

I understand that students are taught to put the upwind wheel down first, it's a skill they need to learn and there's nothing wrong with doing it that way every time if you prefer. I'm just pointing out that it's not a necessity and a perfectly executed crosswind landing, from an observer's point of view, will look no different from a normal landing.

I'll need you to demonstrate that for me. How do you do a slip wings level while maintaining runway alignment??

 

[LDJones]

The FAA believes you need to keep a wing low and touch on the upwind wheel first...see attached...

 

[lr60plt]

They certainly can. The only thing a crosswind requires is that you fly the airplane in a slip and you can do that with the wings level and plant both mains at the same time as long as you are able to maintain directional alignment with the runway. There's really no need to over-compensate for the crosswind other than in extreme gusty conditions.

That makes no sense. If you are landing like that, you are landing with a side load...and the fuselage is not aligned with the runway.

To touch down with both mains is the "crab n' kick" method.