Crossing the Sierra Nevada, SFO->LAS

I am at the TTE vor next to KPTV, going over at tehachapi or at lake Isabella is probably the best route, then drop down to Mojave and swing below the restricted area if it's hot. The winds can kick up over tehachapi but it's an easy fly over at 9500
 
I've done the Mammoth crossing a few times from west to east, never from east to west. It was a number of years ago but here's what I did solo in a 150HP Citabria. From MPI, I'd head about 060, keeping mt Ritter just to my left. There are two good sized peaks still south west of Mt Ritter that are easy to spot. I'd get just SW of that first peak and take the elevator up to about 12k' or better. If I didn't get tossed around too bad I'd continue east to the next peak hoping not to lose more than 500'. On that second peak just south of Mt Ritter, I'd once again slow and take the elevator up and my minimum was 13k'. As I recall, you can barely see a part of Mammoth ski area from 13k. If I wasn't basically level with Mt Ritter, I had to make a 360 once to get high enough. Once I felt comfy and had my altitude it was aim right north of the ski area and hang on.

The emer exit was always a sharp right turn and back out south east, but it's no easy treat if the wind is howling. the whole section in there was bumpy. It's not something I would take pax through if they were squeamish. Beautiful trip but it's tricky.
 
I've flown the stretch from Mammoth to Oakland in the winter. Even though it's a low spot, altitude is your friend - 14,000 on O2 works quite well, although I don't know whether a Cherokee with three people can get up there. The main issue, in my experience, is icing. Nine times out of ten, ceilings and possible icing have led me to choose the Bakersfield - Tehon Pass option instead. There's a good restaurant at Fox Field, Lancaster (WJF). Crossing the Sierra is great -- it's just that weather usually rules it out. The Mojave desert is wonderful and more reliable.

I've been to Las Vegas for meetings. Lots of slot machines and such - boring as hell. There's no way I'd go there if I weren't getting paid to do it. However, the flight should be good - both routes have great scenery.
 
More amazing feedback, really appreciate that!

Do not get too fixated with the plane type selection. If people say 28-180 is not suitable, then I will not do it. We would be around 200lbs under gross, so climb performance is pretty good. We can do 11-12000 easily. BTDT.
Again, with the multiple lenticulars and my mountain flying experience. My experience is so narrow that I would never fly close to a mountain range if there is any chance of that happening. I appreciate the terrain, I do not intend to take stupid risks.
Like I said, I have zero get-there-itis.

Charlie Tango, those pictures are amazing. Is there a way to predict/decide about the winds in that part of the Sierra? Most comments here seem to suggest it'll be violent, no matter the forecast?

I would be more than happy to head down south and go around the bumpy bits, if it is so required. But then again, I would hate to miss an opportunity to fly in scenery like that.

I've crossed the Alps a few times, there is something pretty amazing when you have peaks exceeding 16000ft around you. Even though I don't have the experience bouncing around lenticulars, I know to stay away from the pointy bits so I don't end up in them.

One of the reasons why I started this topic was to find out if there is a way to establish if the weather in those crossings is as bad as here projected.
 
Follow I-80 to Reno and then head south or go all the way south in California - which gives you some R- areas to avoid, but don't even think about going over the middle of the Sierras to Mammoth.
 
I appreciate all the comments, but what is the reason not to ever think about going over to Mammoth in February?
 
Just my $.02 ... In that class of airplane, with that load, I'd go by way of Tehachapi -- or, if the R-areas and MOAs are all hot, then by way of Palmdale and Daggett, then follow I-15. Study the Las Vegas Terminal Area Chart carefully, and get familiar with the (ATC clearance required) transition routes to VGT.

Paul Hamilton said:
I've been to Las Vegas for meetings. Lots of slot machines and such - boring as hell. There's no way I'd go there if I weren't getting paid to do it.
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+1. I like Reno better.
 
I've been to Las Vegas around 10 times, this is not the point of this trip.

Also, let's ignore the 28-180. What would be your requirements for this sort of mission?
 
mtuomi said:
Charlie Tango, those pictures are amazing. Is there a way to predict/decide about the winds in that part of the Sierra? Most comments here seem to suggest it'll be violent, no matter the forecast?
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Sure, check winds aloft, 10,000' works and check surface winds and surface winds forecast for KMMH. If KMMH is southerly and over 20kts check KBIH (3 runways) forecast.

Also check Mountain obscuration.

A storm front with precip or even obscuration is a no go. We get 275 sunny days a year so mostly its go.

Winds aloft: North winds align with the Sierra and parallel ranges and generally mean smooth flying. Prevailing SW wind means some lee side turbulence but the crossing is 35 minutes windward and 10 minutes leeward so not so bad. If winds aloft are 20kts or above use V230 for a smooth ride until the descent, which is very short.

If winds aloft are mild short cut V230 for better scenery.

If surface winds at Mammoth are above 20kts and southerly use Bishop, if Bishop winds are not favorable its probably a no go.

Forecasts are pretty reliable and you have a wide open sky to turn around in if they are wrong.

Look at today's weather, it would be a no-go till Sunday, we might get 2' of snow today. Today would be a no-go due to the front, the wind velocity, obscuration and surface winds. No-go on all 4, easy to see. Maybe we will have skiing next week?
 
Thats Fantastic.

Can I buy you a beer if conditions allow, in February?
 
mtuomi said:
Most comments here seem to suggest it'll be violent, no matter the forecast?
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That would be an exaggeration. It depends on the actual conditions on the day of the flight. One problem is that forecasts are iffy. Another is that there aren't many reporting stations in the Sierras. Sometimes, I have headed that way based on forecasts, and had to divert to a lower altitude route because the cloud bases were too low once I got in a position to see them.

On one occasion that I recall, I delayed the flight by a day because the forecast winds were more than I wanted to deal with even over Tehachapi Pass. On one flight, while approaching Tehachapi pass from the southeast, I encountered a downdraft so strong that I felt it necessary to turn back away from the pass until I found an updraft to spiral upward in before crossing the pass. I think I ended up crossing the pass at 16,500, and it's not even a very high pass. Overkill perhaps, I don't know, but it's a good idea to have an oxygen tank on board (properly secured!) in order to make that option available.

The search and rescue issues that MAKG brought up are worth considering too.
 
mtuomi said:
My experience is so narrow that I would never fly close to a mountain range if there is any chance of that happening. I appreciate the terrain, I do not intend to take stupid risks.
Like I said, I have zero get-there-itis.
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I pulled out this comment specifically. In my experience, sometimes the best lift is found near the windward side of the cliffs. If you fly from the west, plan to spend some quality time to the SW of those peaks where you are going to find good lift. The mtns will do a fair amount of work for you provided you are in the right area, and you have an exit plan.

I came out of Taos one day heading east, and had a pretty good load in a single engine. I remember all the issues around the east side of Taos peak, so after takeoff I flew directly toward the mountain in the west. As I got within 2 miles of the rising terrain, we started up at about 1500FPM. I just slowed and lazed about there letting the wind get me up to 14k' then I pointed it SE and off we went. It's gonna bump some, and we still had mtn wave all the way into SE TX but it sure saved some gas.
 
mtuomi said:
More amazing feedback, really appreciate that!

Do not get too fixated with the plane type selection. If people say 28-180 is not suitable, then I will not do it. We would be around 200lbs under gross, so climb performance is pretty good. We can do 11-12000 easily. BTDT.
Again, with the multiple lenticulars and my mountain flying experience. My experience is so narrow that I would never fly close to a mountain range if there is any chance of that happening. I appreciate the terrain, I do not intend to take stupid risks.
Like I said, I have zero get-there-itis.

Charlie Tango, those pictures are amazing. Is there a way to predict/decide about the winds in that part of the Sierra? Most comments here seem to suggest it'll be violent, no matter the forecast?

I would be more than happy to head down south and go around the bumpy bits, if it is so required. But then again, I would hate to miss an opportunity to fly in scenery like that.

I've crossed the Alps a few times, there is something pretty amazing when you have peaks exceeding 16000ft around you. Even though I don't have the experience bouncing around lenticulars, I know to stay away from the pointy bits so I don't end up in them.

One of the reasons why I started this topic was to find out if there is a way to establish if the weather in those crossings is as bad as here projected.
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The funny thing about lenticular s is they require at least some moisture in the atmosphere to form. Just because the cloud does not form does not mean the underlying air currents that present the hazard do not form. When the wind blows off the desert, you can have those conditions present in spades and not see one cloud. It's wind direction and speed you need to pay attention to and your proximity to peaks. Stay as far from the down wind side of a peak as you can.
 
docmirror said:
I pulled out this comment specifically. In my experience, sometimes the best lift is found near the windward side of the cliffs. If you fly from the west, plan to spend some quality time to the SW of those peaks where you are going to find good lift. The mtns will do a fair amount of work for you provided you are in the right area, and you have an exit plan.

I came out of Taos one day heading east, and had a pretty good load in a single engine. I remember all the issues around the east side of Taos peak, so after takeoff I flew directly toward the mountain in the west. As I got within 2 miles of the rising terrain, we started up at about 1500FPM. I just slowed and lazed about there letting the wind get me up to 14k' then I pointed it SE and off we went. It's gonna bump some, and we still had mtn wave all the way into SE TX but it sure saved some gas.
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In the mountains you're gonna find all three types of lift. Thermals will organize on the sunny downwind side of the valley. Ridge will be right in front of the mountain face, but beware of the downwind side, and wave may develop on the lee side of the mountains if the conditions are right. I suspect what you saw out of Taos was ridge lift on the windward side of the mountains.

Keep in mind i am a flat land glider pilot with limited time in "lumpy" terrain. Don't be afraid though to use conditions of lift to augment your performance. I have a glider pilot buddy who had his PA-28-180 in the mid 20s using strong wave lift :)

I have operated my instrument equipped Piper Archer in wave X-C flights in the sense that I was flying far above its operational ceiling (13,750'). In one case at FL 240 for a flight that took me from Palm Springs to Denver non-stop. Above 15,000' feet or so the airplane became a sailplane in the sense that it would descend at about 50:1 at full power without lift. The Archer was IFR equipped with a Mode C transponder and DME and I was instrument rated and current. I had a good oxygen system on board. The procedures followed with ATC would be the same with a sailplane.I air-filed an IFR flight plan once I was in the wave and knew I could reach the flight levels. I asked for, and was given, a direct route and a "cruise" clearance giving me the altitudes from FL240 down to 14,000'. I made sure the controller knew that I would not necessarily be able to hold an altitude above 14,000'. Whenever I encountered a particularly good wave I asked for a "climb in hold". In all but one case, this was granted quickly. On occasion I asked for, and was given, a route diversion to a good looking lenticular. The engine ran incredibly smoothly and quietly at about 2400 RPM producing about 35% power and consuming about 3GPH. The airplane needed to be flown at the Vy speed of 76Kts IAS which is probably the L/D max. The TAS was the normal 120Kts. The experience is very quiet and soothing, almost sailplane-like.The leaning procedure is tricky at FL240. I found that the idle cut-off section of the mixture control allowed for a degree of proportionality but it was hard to get set right. I settled for an EGT reading anywhere on the scale. The crossing of the Rockies was interesting. As the low level jet stream was pushed up over the mountains, the wind speed increased. My GPS groundspeed increased to 240Kts over Vail, CO at which point I realized that I was going to fly east no matter what. Turning around was out of the question since my ground speed would have been zero. The air was very smooth at FL240 but I could look down and see thewind-driven snow boiling off the peaks in what must have been severeturbulence. I elected to continue at FL240 well east of Denver beforestarting the decent to avoid this turbulence. Upon landing, I still had enough fuel for another 2 hours. Not bad for an airplane whose POH says the range is 600NM without reserves. The whole operation was quite legal and rather pleasant. I am inclined to think it could be done with a real sailplane. The controllers seemed to enjoy it too.

Bill Daniels
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Some of the reactions here are interesting. I'm a new pilot, so I know no different, but I live and trained in the Sierras. I flew over the Sierras for my first solo cross country in a Warrior, it's normal around here.

Anyways, with that said. If you're looking to avoid tall mountains, have you looked at routing through KPTV or KBFL? That changes the altitude profile drastically.

Otherwise; winds are important. I was a pax the other day going over the Sierras with a 40 knot headwind. It was slow. Plan for the winds and don't be afraid to reroute. If the winds are bad, you may need to have another fuel stop.

And don't let everybody scare you out of it. As long as you do proper planning, flying in the mountains is a great experience.
 
Heftiger said:
Some of the reactions here are interesting. I'm a new pilot, so I know no different, but I live and trained in the Sierras.
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I, too, live in the Sierra. I also teach mountain flying in the Sierra. I was also a search'n'rescue pilot in the local sheriff's office. I've seen what happens to folks who "know how to fly in the mountains".

Sure, those of us up here who contend with this stuff on a daily basis know how to handle it. Take a look at the photos of those beautiful valleys and vistas posted on this thread. Then ask yourself ... where am I going to stuff it when the fan stops turning? Who is going to be looking for me? How are they going to lift me out?

Hey, not to begrudge anybody who knows how to do it and is willing to take the risks their fun. But you need to know going in what the downside is and what the odds are. After all, you ARE going to Vegas to play the odds, aren't you?

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
I, too, live in the Sierra. I also teach mountain flying in the Sierra. I was also a search'n'rescue pilot in the local sheriff's office. I've seen what happens to folks who "know how to fly in the mountains".

Sure, those of us up here who contend with this stuff on a daily basis know how to handle it. Take a look at the photos of those beautiful valleys and vistas posted on this thread. Then ask yourself ... where am I going to stuff it when the fan stops turning? Who is going to be looking for me? How are they going to lift me out?

Hey, not to begrudge anybody who knows how to do it and is willing to take the risks their fun. But you need to know going in what the downside is and what the odds are. After all, you ARE going to Vegas to play the odds, aren't you?

Jim
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Good reply Jim.

I would also encourage the use of flight following. When flying from Central to Northern CA, I only loose ATC for the last 30 minutes of my flight; the remainder I'm on with them. If you take one of the lower routes, I suspect you'd be able keep ATC the whole trip, increasing the safety factor of the flight.
 
mtuomi said:
Good suggestions, thanks guys!
I've crossed the Swiss and Austrian Alps a few times, so I know the basics of mountain flying.
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I've done that route, and most other western crossings, and was going to comment until I read this.

If you've crossed the alps a few times you shouldn't need advice on how to do this simple crossing.
 
weirdjim said:
...He isn't going to go into LAS since light singles aren't welcome there....
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My first job involved flying a Arrow IV into LAS semi frequently, only once I had to change planes and go to North Las Vegas.

If you can swallow the fees nothin keeping a light single out of KLAS.
 
James331 said:
My first job involved flying a Arrow IV into LAS semi frequently, only once I had to change planes and go to North Las Vegas.

If you can swallow the fees nothin keeping a light single out of KLAS.
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Didn't say they could keep the light single out, just that they weren't welcome ... and the fees don't exactly welcome them in.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Didn't say they could keep the light single out, just that they weren't welcome ... and the fees don't exactly welcome them in.

Jim
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I felt very welcome, especially at signature. It's just spendy, but thus is Vegas.
 
weirdjim said:
Didn't say they could keep the light single out, just that they weren't welcome ... and the fees don't exactly welcome them in.

Jim
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Well, I haven't flown in in a single, but I've been flying light twins into there since it was Hughes Aviation and have always been welcome. For as much as people complain about Signature, I was prepared to hate them, but I can't. I have always been treated well, was given a competitive fuel price for the asking, and even got a free top up of nitrogen on a strut, and I used several across the country with the same service.:dunno: If you're playing hard with your buddies, ask the Pit Boss if he can help you out with ramp fees.:D
 
bbridges51 said:
So, what are the fees to land and tie down at LAS?
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Ran me a $15 security fee, $40 facility fee, and then $40/night parking. They waived the first night's parking with a top off. You can definitely do better at Henderson, but you'll have to find transportation each way. Atlantic gave me a lift. For just a night or two, it's hard to beat the convenience of McCarran IMO.
 
You can do even better at Boulder, especially if you are going to rent a car anyway.
 
clarkmueller said:
Ran me a $15 security fee, $40 facility fee, and then $40/night parking. They waived the first night's parking with a top off. You can definitely do better at Henderson, but you'll have to find transportation each way. Atlantic gave me a lift. For just a night or two, it's hard to beat the convenience of McCarran IMO.
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Did you even try to get out of the charges? Usually a little flirting and a little begging and those go away, girls love it when you beg.
 
I'll keep it in mind for next time - the nice gal at the front desk said that I looked awfully young to be a pilot. :lol:
 
clarkmueller said:
I'll keep it in mind for next time - the nice gal at the front desk said that I looked awfully young to be a pilot. :lol:
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You had her at hello!!!!:yesnod:

Next time invite me or Henning.....we will show you how to close the deal!:D

(And we are old):lol:
 
clarkmueller said:
I'll keep it in mind for next time - the nice gal at the front desk said that I looked awfully young to be a pilot. :lol:
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She was cougaring on you dude, it would have been a good opportunity to fail a mag check and overnight.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
OK what about flying from San Carlos (San Fran Area) to Vegas next week.
KSQL ECA OAL BTY KHND
Are the winds better now than March or is the South route still the way to go?
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We have a major front coming through this weekend that wil drop the first snows in the Sierras. By mid next week it should be calm and warming up again.

March winds can be rough.
 
docmirror said:
I pulled out this comment specifically. In my experience, sometimes the best lift is found near the windward side of the cliffs. If you fly from the west, plan to spend some quality time to the SW of those peaks where you are going to find good lift. The mtns will do a fair amount of work for you provided you are in the right area, and you have an exit plan.

I came out of Taos one day heading east, and had a pretty good load in a single engine. I remember all the issues around the east side of Taos peak, so after takeoff I flew directly toward the mountain in the west. As I got within 2 miles of the rising terrain, we started up at about 1500FPM. I just slowed and lazed about there letting the wind get me up to 14k' then I pointed it SE and off we went. It's gonna bump some, and we still had mtn wave all the way into SE TX but it sure saved some gas.
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That's how the glider pilots do it!
 
Haha, I recently did a 8-country round-Europe trip with a Saratoga. After paying around 250EUR/night in Bratislava, I consider LAS cheap!!
 
I fly from tahoe (TVL) to OAL, BTY, KVGT. I know it's a bit out of the way but if you fly to Tahoe then Las Vegas the passes are only 7500' at Tahoe (Echo summit and Kingsbury Grade). The upside is you can stop and visit/gamble Tahoe. :)
 
James331 said:
I've done that route, and most other western crossings, and was going to comment until I read this.

If you've crossed the alps a few times you shouldn't need advice on how to do this simple crossing.
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That's not quite true. The OP understands leaning, DA, etc. But he doesn't have the local knowledge. Example, there are a number of passes around the Leadville-Aspen Colorado area. Only one will get you where you're going, and there's lots of banged up metal in the others.

Without the local knowledge it's not easy to look at the sectional and know which one to take. Without local knowledge you don't know the peculiarities of places, weather-specifics and such, on the route.
 
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