Cross controlled stall

[HF17]

For the cross controlled stall, would it be incorrect to recover once the stall warning is heard? The airplane flying handbook just says that the “control pressures should be increased until the airplane stalls.” I just wouldn’t feel comfortable performing a full cross controlled stall in an airplane that is not certified for spins and my instructor refuses to do cross controlled stalls with me.

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[flyingron]

With any stall, the first step is always LOWER THE FREAKING ANGLE OF ATTACK. This is what causes the stall, NOTHING ELSE. In addition, you need to correct the other aggravating factors. For cross control, all you typically need to do is get your feet off the rudders. Most our the light aircraft we fly want to fly more or less coordinated. Only in the case of a spin do you need to do something. The one thing you don't want to do is exacerbate a stalled situation by trying to right the plane with ailerons.

 

[Clip4]

If you recover when you hear the stall horn, you have not done a stall. The cross controlled stall is a CFI demonstration maneuver for the private training course. The student is not required to demonstrate a cross controlled stall and I do not recommend you attempt one as a student. Find another CFI if yours can’t demo a cross controlled stall.

 

[HF17]

If you recover when you hear the stall horn, you have not done a stall. The cross controlled stall is a CFI demonstration maneuver for the private training course. The student is not required to demonstrate a cross controlled stall and I do not recommend you attempt one as a student. Find another CFI if yours can’t demo a cross controlled stall.

I’m actually a CFI applicant. I have my checkride this week. My instructor never demonstrated a cross controlled stall during my ppl training and he also told me not to practice cross controlled stalls. But I don’t want to just hope that the DPE doesn’t make me do it, I really want to be prepared.


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[dmspilot]

What kind of airplane are you flying?

 

[HF17]

What kind of airplane are you flying?

It’s a piper warrior. Spins are prohibited. But I did my spin training at another flight school in a 152.


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[Clip4]

I’m actually a CFI applicant. I have my checkride this week. My instructor never demonstrated a cross controlled stall during my ppl training and he also told me not to practice cross controlled stalls. But I don’t want to just hope that the DPE doesn’t make me do it, I really want to be prepared.


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At some point in your CFI training, you had to have a stall spin training. They didn’t do cross controlled stalls?

 

[HF17]

At some point in your CFI training, you had to have a stall spin training. They didn’t do cross controlled stalls?

I did do my spin training in a 152 at a different flight school.


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[midlifeflyer]

On my CFI ride, the examiner gave me my choice of demonstration stalls. I chose cross-controlled. He gave me a feigned deer in the headlight look, tightened his seatbelt, and grabbed onto his seat with both hands.

(Yes, "feigned." My examiner was a joker. My CFI ride was actually a laugh a minute.)

 

[Clip4]

I did do my spin training in a 152 at a different flight school.


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I would not be afraid to do a cross controlled stall in a Warrior. You do need more than 3” of rudder pedal. Once the stall occurs, just release the rudder and move the control wheel forward about 3”.

 

[HF17]

I would not be afraid to do a cross controlled stall in a Warrior. You do need more than 3” of rudder pedal.

I just wouldn’t want begin a spin since spins are prohibited in the warrior. Also, what do you mean by “you need more than 3” of rudder?”


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[Rgbeard]

I’m shocked to learn that you’re a CFI applicant.

 

[texasclouds]

Go practice them with a knowledgeable CFI. You need to know how to demonstrate one.

 

[dmspilot]

It’s a piper warrior. Spins are prohibited. But I did my spin training at another flight school in a 152.

Firstly, your spin training, in addition to fully developed spins, should have included practicing stall-spin entries with immediate recoveries. It probably also should have included cross-controlled stalls. Seems like a lost opportunity here.

Secondly, even aircraft that are not approved for intentional spins had to demonstrate spin recovery to receive FAA certification, except for the Cirrus (and maybe there's others but I'm not aware of any specifically).

Thirdly, there is a big problem if neither you nor your instructor are comfortable doing them in a Warrior...and yet you would be comfortable teaching a student how to stall one? Do you plan on shadowing them on the controls at all times to make sure all of their stalls are perfect and they don't accidentally input cross controls? (There's a reason it's a CFI demonstration maneuver and part of the CFI checkride.)

 

[Albany Tom]

Why not just practice them as power off stalls in a slip? Easy, and if you're going to instruct in a PA-28, probably a good idea to know what a stall in a slip feels like. (I shouldn't have to say this, but clearly, practice it at altitude, not the pattern.)

As far as spins go, some PA-28's aren't approved for intentional spins. But some are, in utility category. There's a reason that Cherokee's are good trainers.

 

[dmspilot]

Why not just practice them as power off stalls in a slip? Easy, and if you're going to instruct in a PA-28, probably a good idea to know what a stall in a slip feels like. (I shouldn't have to say this, but clearly, practice it at altitude, not the pattern.)

As far as spins go, some PA-28's aren't approved for intentional spins. But some are, in utility category. There's a reason that Cherokee's are good trainers.

While a slipping stall is technically a type of cross-controlled stall, it is not the kind the FAA is talking about in the CFI PTS/AFH.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’m shocked to learn that you’re a CFI applicant.

Don't be. I'm not. We learn what our training environment teaches us. It's too bad his instructor doesn't want to cover this. Perhaps if known ahead of time the spin training guy could have included it.

 

[HF17]

Don't be. I'm not. We learn what our training environment teaches us. It's too bad his instructor doesn't want to cover this. Perhaps if known ahead of time the spin training guy could have included it.

Spins are prohibited in the airplane that I’m bringing to the checkride, so I want to be familiar with doing cross controlled stalls in that airplane.


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[Bill]

I did some spin training in a Citabria, he had me spin that airplane just about any way one could imagine, including cross controlled stall entry. Do you have any CFIs local with a Citabria or Decathlon who can take you up?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Spins are prohibited in the airplane that I’m bringing to the checkride, so I want to be familiar with doing cross controlled stalls in that airplane.


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Of course. My checkride was in a no-spin airplane too. I was just saying your spin trainer could have introduced you to the maneuver. Then you could have understood it, applied it to a different model, and correlated what you learned to related flight maneuvers.

I'll tell you why I like the cross controlled stall. It's not about checking off a box. It helps me feel comfortable watching a trainee make stall mistakes without interceding too soon. And I love the "I didn't realize an airplane can stall that nose low!" reaction when I demonstrate it.

 

[HF17]

I did some spin training in a Citabria, he had me spin that airplane just about any way one could imagine, including cross controlled stall entry. Do you have any CFIs local with a Citabria or Decathlon who can take you up?

I did my spin training in a 152 and we did enter many ways including in a slip. But I may have to do a cross controlled stall in the airplane that I’m taking to my checkride which is a warrior. I just don’t want to accidentally put it into a spin


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[HF17]

Of course. My checkride was in a no-spin airplane too. I was just saying your spin trainer could have introduced you to the maneuver. Then you could have understood it, applied it to a different model, and correlated what you learned to related flight maneuvers.

I'll tell you why I like the cross controlled stall. It's not about checking off a box. It helps me feel comfortable watching a trainee make stall mistakes without interceding too soon. And I love the "I didn't realize an airplane can stall that nose low!" reaction when I demonstrate it.

I’m going to go out and practice it on my own today. I know how quickly airplane go into spins while stalling uncoordinated, so that is really my only worry


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[FastEddieB]

On my first, or one of my first, solos, I managed to get myself into a cross-controlled departure stall. To the best of my recollection 45+ years down the road, I had inadvertently left flaps down from a prior approach-to-landing stall. When the stall broke, the plane rolled rather violently to the left - probably from not enough right rudder. I recovered, but it scared me pretty badly.

With that episode in mind, when I later became an instructor I wanted my students to see what I called an “incipient spin” prior to soloing. I’d demonstrate a cross-controlled departure stall* with fair warning, then have them perform at least a couple. I wanted to make sure their reflex was to get the stick forward and opposite rudder before a full spin developed.


*One way to do this is to have them perform a departure stall using no rudder on the entry, just aileron to prevent turning. That sets up a realistic scenario of a stall following “not enough rudder”. It’s also worthwhile to set up a skidding turn using way too much rudder and opposite aileron to prevent banking. That more closely emulates a stall from a skidding turn from base to final, and what the OP’s article is referencing.

 

[Sky Review]

THIS!
The downhill rudder pulls the nose down, it’s beneficial to experience.
I did my CFI ride in a 172(180hp STC) not approved for spins. Examiner wanted cross controlled stall performed to the break.
You can do it.
You have to recover in the small space between the maneuver and an actual spin. It’s a good demonstration that you have full command of this subject area at the commercial pilot flying skill level, plus teaching, observing, maintaining situational awareness as student flies, etc.

Summarily, in these (trainer) aircraft, you can typically leg go of all the controls and most of the bad stuff stops happening. After all, the pilot caused the bad stuff .

(May be more wing drop entertainment factor in Warrior vs Skyhawk, I don’t remember)

 

[PaulS]

*One way to do this is to have them perform a departure stall using no rudder on the entry, just aileron to prevent turning. That sets up a realistic scenario of a stall following “not enough rudder”. It’s also worthwhile to set up a skidding turn using way too much rudder and opposite aileron to prevent banking. That more closely emulates a stall from a skidding turn from base to final, and what the OP’s article is referencing.

Having trouble with this one, aren't you describing a slip here?

 

[luvflyin]

I did do my spin training in a 152 at a different flight school.


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They should do cross controlled stalls for you. I can't imagine why they would not. I also question any CFI who would not demonstrate them. They really are pretty benign in typical small trainer type aircraft. When the high wing stalls first, you have time to do the stall recovery and get coordinated before it turns into a spin.

 

[luvflyin]

What kind of airplane are you flying?

Good question. While most planes recover pretty easy from a 'slipping' stall as opposed to a 'skidding' stall but not all. I've heard you can lose a Lear pretty quick.

 

[luvflyin]

For the cross controlled stall, would it be incorrect to recover once the stall warning is heard? The airplane flying handbook just says that the “control pressures should be increased until the airplane stalls.” I just wouldn’t feel comfortable performing a full cross controlled stall in an airplane that is not certified for spins and my instructor refuses to do cross controlled stalls with me.

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Hmm. That said "...A skidding cross-control stall..." Up there at the top. Skidding ain't cross controlled. Skidding is both aileron and rudder in the same direction but to much rudder or not enough aileron. Slipping is cross-controlled.

EDIT: I have this pretty much wrong. Read on.

 

[HF17]

Hmm. That said "...A skidding cross-control stall..." Up there at the top. Skidding ain't cross controlled. Skidding is both aileron and rudder in the same direction but to much rudder or not enough aileron. Slipping is cross-controlled.

Yeah, maybe it’s a typo


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[flyingron]

In a Cherokee you're not likely to get it to spin by a steady state entry into a cross controlled stall. Once it stalls get your feet of the rudders and relax the back pressure. Again, that's probably all you need to do. The goal is to get the wings flying again. A wing drop IS NOT A SPIN.

To get a Cherokee to spin you gotta have a pretty aggressive stall started and then kick the rudder hard. Again, the thing will recover pretty much by letting go. The Cherokees are such pussycat that they designed the Tommahawk to actually have a more "textbook" spin behavior that requires positive correction, and then people didn't much care for that either.

 

[FastEddieB]

Skidding ain't cross controlled. Skidding is both aileron and rudder in the same direction but to much rudder or not enough aileron.

In a skidding turn, too much rudder is being used in the direction of the turn, while aileron is being used in the opposite direction to prevent banking. Sounds cross-controlled to me.

This from a spin sequence in Stick and Rudder:

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Good luck on the CFI Ride!

My DPE had me lead the entire flight portion of the checkride. Prior to the ride he had me go through the PTS and select the pertinent areas and build a plan of action for the flight. Then I instructed him through said plan of action, because of that I got to choose the maneuvers that the PTS dictated in the "OR" sections that fit to my strengths. Maybe try that depending on the DPE and it might impress him?

Cross controlled stall should be a nothing-burger in most training aircraft, You need to be able to demonstrate a base-to-final overshoot stall as a demonstrated one, or select one of the other stalls.

 

[flyingron]

I dislike the term crosscontrolled. Skid/Slip refers to flying uncoordinated. You can get into skids or slips with any combination of control "direction." It's all a matter of what is required with the present aerodynamic forces.

 

[midwestpa24]

There is a reason a CFI needs to be demonstrate this, because spin certified aircraft or not, one day you will have a student try to spin you. You need to be able to recognize and recover.

In a cross-controlled stall, a quick recovery should occur before or during the incipient part of the spin. The aircraft will probably break over the top, but you should recover before it fully develops. Not to mention the average Cessna or Piper trainer is usually pretty spin resistant, requiring continued pro-spin inputs to make it spin. That's not to say they won't break in the stall and drop one wing, but they will usually fly themselves into a spiral versus a true spin.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I’m shocked to learn that you’re a CFI applicant.

CFIs are not sky-God's. They're allowed to not know things as long as they can admit it, and try to learn it. The second you stop learning is a problem, and even more so when you think you know it all.

 

[steingar]

I did cross control stalls in my 152 and in my Cherokee. No biggie really. I've been hesitant to do them in the Mooney because it's spin recovery characteristics are, well, idiosyncratic is the word that comes to mind.

 

[FastEddieB]

I did cross control stalls in my 152 and in my Cherokee. No biggie really. I've been hesitant to do them in the Mooney because it's spin recovery characteristics are, well, idiosyncratic is the word that comes to mind.

I demonstrated them in a Cirrus SR22. I was a bit nervous, so made sure I had at least 5,000' of altitude. Could not provoke anything at all scary, but apparently the same cuffed leading edge that makes them hard to spin can eventually be provoked into a spin quite rapidly if taken too far. Good example of that below...

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hmm. That said "...A skidding cross-control stall..." Up there at the top. Skidding ain't cross controlled. Skidding is both aileron and rudder in the same direction but to much rudder or not enough aileron. Slipping is cross-controlled.

Sometime I think these argument do more damage than good. How about this:

The demonstration maneuver called a "cross-controlled stall" in the AFH is designed to simulate the classic overshoot base-to-final stall/spin scenario. The entry is a normal banked turn to final but same direction rudder to "help" bring the tail around more quickly. So same side - the entry is a skid. The result is, the nose lowers and the bank steepens. Back pressure to bring the nose up and opposite aileron (cross-controlled) to lessen the bank combine to induce the uncoordinated stall.

 

[Clip4]

I just wouldn’t want begin a spin since spins are prohibited in the warrior. Also, what do you mean by “you need more than 3” of rudder?”


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A cross controlled stall demo doesn’t mean you are pushing the rudder pedal to the floor. Follow the procedure in the Airplane Flying Handbook and induce about 3” down pedal.

 

[Clip4]

I’m shocked to learn that you’re a CFI applicant.

I’m not.