Crazy to purchase plane to finish PPL?

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kfvintx

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Am I crazy to consider purchase of plane just to finish PPL? I'm having troubles with scheduling of planes at flight school and my schedule does not allow for planning 3 weeks out. The last 2 times I have reserved plane and showed up for flight it has had issue - one I discovered terrible flat spot during preflight on left tire from obvious brake lockup so it immediately went into maintenance and cancelled my time and then yesterday the starter went out cancelling my plans again.

I have roughly 30 hours so far and have solo'd in Warrior so I would likely look for a Piper. My thought is to find one in good condition with just the basics to finish PPL and then build time. Doesn't need latest upgraded avionics but don't want trash either. I'm thinking something in the $30-40k range that I could get most of my money back out in a couple years.

How is insurance handled when owner not licensed yet? What should I expect for annual premium on this?
 
That's one of the reasons I bought my Apache -- to guarantee availability. If you get a warrior you won't have much trouble with insurance. Shoulds like a solid plan if this is what you plan to fly afterwards. =)
 
I did it with an older cherokee 160. I bought before I even found an instructor... I believe that the insurance ran about $600/year and dropped about $100/year after my first 100hrs. It was nice not to worry about plane availability during training and for the check ride.


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Tom-D said:
very common practice.
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Agreed 100%....

I bought my Warrior ( N4341X) with 1.2 hours in my log book.....

It was a great investment... More then doubled my money in 10 years and 600+ flight hours....:):)
 
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I would consider it a good idea if you get a decent inspection. I bought my 172 to do the same thing.

Insurance still isnt all that bad. You just get student insurance with some limitations. I was discouraged from doing it early on in my flying. I regret listening to the critics now. I love my airplane and all her quirks
 
kfvintx said:
Am I crazy to consider purchase of plane just to finish PPL? I'm having troubles with scheduling of planes at flight school and my schedule does not allow for planning 3 weeks out. The last 2 times I have reserved plane and showed up for flight it has had issue - one I discovered terrible flat spot during preflight on left tire from obvious brake lockup so it immediately went into maintenance and cancelled my time and then yesterday the starter went out cancelling my plans again.

I have roughly 30 hours so far and have solo'd in Warrior so I would likely look for a Piper. My thought is to find one in good condition with just the basics to finish PPL and then build time. Doesn't need latest upgraded avionics but don't want trash either. I'm thinking something in the $30-40k range that I could get most of my money back out in a couple years.

How is insurance handled when owner not licensed yet? What should I expect for annual premium on this?
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Crazy? Not in the least.

Insurance? You DO have renter's insurance, right??
 
I bought my 172 to do my PPL, finishing up my insterment in it now. Best move I made. Plane was always available, got to pick what CFII I wanted to train me and actually with all of the hours i have flown it I am actually ahead of the money game if I had rented.
 
I bought an Archer II shortly after doing my first solo in a 172.

I think training in what you're going to fly just makes sense anyway...
 
kfvintx said:
How is insurance handled when owner not licensed yet? What should I expect for annual premium on this?
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They charge a bit extra. The second year with ticket and hours it will come down. Take a tail number, call a broker like Falcon, Wings, Aeromarine...... and get a quote.

What do you want the plane for mid-term ? Given the cost of buying/selling planes, buying you 'next plane' tends to be the better deal. You have already soloed, there is no law that says you cant do the rest of your training in a Cherolee Six or Comanche.
 
I was able to buy a year's worth of ground & flight hull coverage and 1mil liability for under $1k/year as a student pilot. It went down a little bit when I renewed the following year with my certificate but the difference wasn't huge.
 
I got my plane to finish the instrument rating after numerous issues with the rental fleet, including a real-life vacuum failure.
 
All good information and great to know others have done the same. Also great to hear that insurance won't be crazy high either.

And yes, I do have renter's insurance.

I understand the "buy your second plane first" idea but honestly not sure what that will be. I want to continue with IFR and then add multi with twin being long term ownership goal (3 daughters of my own and current girlfriend has 2 so seating for 7 and useful load is key).

So the search for basic plane begins.... anyone know of one I should definitely check out? Or maybe current owner is undecided about selling and interested buyer could persuade them?
 
That's how my brother did it, bought his Piper in Florida and flew it home to North Dakota with our instructor, built up a good bit of time and experience also in the two day trip.
 
kfvintx said:
I understand the "buy your second plane first" idea but honestly not sure what that will be. I want to continue with IFR and then add multi with twin being long term ownership goal (3 daughters of my own and current girlfriend has 2 so seating for 7 and useful load is key).
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Wow, you'll need a King Air (or a Navajo at a minimum). Chances are, you are never going to travel with the entire circus though.

With that in mind, make sure your first purchase is able to get you through the instrument rating. These days, that means an IFR GPS of some stripe. Upgrading trainer aircraft avionics doesn't have a good payback upon sale, so even if it means spending 5k more on the initial buy, it is a better deal than buying a marginally equipped plane and spending money on upgrading avionics.

You may even opt to get an Arrow at this point. Most have better avionics than the basic cherokees and you will collect complex hours which makes it easier to upgrade from there. First year insurance on a retract as a student pilot will hurt, but so does buying and selling aircraft that dont fit your overall plan.

Now if you really want to go crazy, buy a twin for your first plane. Insurance will clobber you pretty bad, but if your 5 year plan is a Navajo or King Air, that number is going to be a rounding error.
 
...exactly why I bought into one early on in my PPL.

1) I wanted to train in what I was going to fly for the next X years.
2) We do owner assisted maintenance/annuals. I like that.
3) No scheduling conflicts. I'm in a plane with several people and in almost 3 years never had one issue. We're all friends (it's not a club - it's a LLC) and setup a google calendar but if anyone ever has an urgent need then we give it up. Recreational flying supersedes training so someone working on a rating can't just hog the plane up for months on end every weekend, etc...
4) pride in ownership.
5) cost. I had to buy a share of an airplane, which wasn't cheap. But the airplane I fly isn't that expensive - especially not 1/4 of it. So I get the benefit of having my own plane and splitting the cost of ownership 4 ways. I did some math starting my training and realized that even after the cost of buying the share it was only slightly more expensive for me to do my PPL in a plane I owned than renting.
6) not having to deal with flight school scheduling. I can't imagine trying to plan a $100 hamburger trip or even worse an overnight trip somewhere working around my flight schools schedule. And then you have to deal with weather, etc... No thanks. I reserve the plane on our calendar and if the weather sucks I move it. If it's a nice day and I feel like flying I check the calendar and if it's open I book the time I want and head to the airport.

Do it - you won't regret it. As a first time owner I'm SO glad I opted into a partnership to split the costs and at the same time learn from some real professionals. Airplane ownership is not something to take lightly - there's a lot of work to be done and maintenance isn't cheap. Having several folks pitching in means that you aren't the one that has to change the oil every time and when the bill comes for the annual you get to slice it up X number of ways. I paid $400 when we did our last one.

Good luck man! PM me if you have any questions or want to chat about it - happy to share my experience as a pretty new PPL (~200 hours/2.4 years).

I don't know the details on how insurance is handled but you shouldn't have trouble getting a policy. I know from my experience our insurance is about $1200/year for our plane. When I joined it only went up about $90 bucks and I paid the delta for the year I was working on my PPL then it went down after I got my certificate. We have a retired ATP/big iron captain in the partnership with 20k+ hours but the other 2 guys are about like me - 3-5 years flying and less than 400 hours. Only one of us has an IFR rating although we all plan to get it at some point.
 
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kfvintx said:
All good information and great to know others have done the same. Also great to hear that insurance won't be crazy high either.

And yes, I do have renter's insurance.

I understand the "buy your second plane first" idea but honestly not sure what that will be. I want to continue with IFR and then add multi with twin being long term ownership goal (3 daughters of my own and current girlfriend has 2 so seating for 7 and useful load is key).

So the search for basic plane begins.... anyone know of one I should definitely check out? Or maybe current owner is undecided about selling and interested buyer could persuade them?
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Does your username mean you're located somewhere between NM, LA, and slightly south of Oklahoma? If so where?

While you say you might need 7 seats, realistically, realistically how often will you be flying somewhere with all of those seats filled? One bit of useful advice I got was to purchase for 90% of your flying (yourself or +1/+2) and get access to something that can haul the entire group.

If you're near the DFW area, we have lots of good folk that you can network with.
 
I wouldn't think twice. Buy it. I tried to get my Cirrus before my PP checkride but with pre-buy and all that I ended up finishing in a 172 but then started instrument in the Cirrus.

I had the same problem - hard time getting planes...
 
AggieMike88 said:
Does your username mean you're located somewhere between NM, LA, and slightly south of Oklahoma? If so where?

While you say you might need 7 seats, realistically, realistically how often will you be flying somewhere with all of those seats filled? One bit of useful advice I got was to purchase for 90% of your flying (yourself or +1/+2) and get access to something that can haul the entire group.

If you're near the DFW area, we have lots of good folk that you can network with.
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Good detective work :lol:. Yep, I'm in Cypress (NW Houston) area.

I've heard this a few times of buying what I need for 90% of the time. But my problem is the getting access to something that can haul all 7 is not the same as buying something for 2-3 and getting access to something for realistic 4 adult. Where do I rent SEL that seats 7? I haven't found it so I'm left with thinking that is what I need to buy.... eventually. But maybe not.... I don't know :dunno:

DFW area does seem to be more active so next time I'm up there will try to see what is going on and make something work.
 
That's what I did in 2011. There was rental plane in about a 4 county area and the instructor that went with it was irritating. I bought the plane, got an instructor and never looked back. Insurance was high as a student pilot, but not ridiculously so.

Having the plane available when you are available will go a long way toward moving your training along at a good pace.

Hope this helps.
 
I started looking at planes shortly after my PPL. I ended up buying a Mooney because for the same money as a Cherokee I was able to get an extra 30 Knots of speed at the same or lower fuel burn, lower times and a nicer panel.

For what you're doing a Cherokee makes sense, but because everyone uses them for training they seem to pull a higher price. When I started looking at planes that aren't considered trainers I started to find that there's a lot out there in better condition and with better panel for the same money. The extra speed and economy was a bonus as well.

If you're just planning to use it for a training tool then flip it, you may have an easier time getting rid of the Cherokee though. I would definitely spring for one with a good IFR GPS already installed if you're getting your IR though.
 
kfvintx said:
Where do I rent SEL that seats 7? I haven't found it so I'm left with thinking that is what I need to buy.... eventually.
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There are a few 7 seat SEL:

Gippsland Airvan
Cherokee Six (certain serial#, 7th seat is a child-seat squeezed between second row seats)
Cessna 207
De Haviland Beaver
De Haviland Otter
Pilatus PC12
Pilatus PC6
Cessna 208
Antonov AN2
Quest Kodiak
.
.
.


Maybe you can find a Cherokee Six to rent somewhere. Not really common. If you truly need 7 seats, you have to buy them.

The reality is that you will rarely need 7 seats. One of the kids is always at camp or your bride airlines it with the one who has a dance competition on saturday morning.
 
Just depends on your support group, do you have any pilot or AP friends to help you with your first buy.

Seeing you're new to aviation this can have a large effect on how much and how feaseable this is for you.

I've seen to go one of two ways for most one they make a informed purchase, get into owner maintance and owner assist annuals, get hooked up with a GOOD AP IA and have a excellent experience.

Two they just buy a plane like how they have bought cars, pay 400 bucks to change tires, have $$$$ annuals every year and find they can't afford aviation.
 
Your best only bet for seven seats without buying is a Cherokee six. For rentals they are rare but you may have a chance at finding them in a flying club. My club has one so they are out there. Good luck!
 
It is an odd dilemna for me and one I don't have the absolute answer for. Seating for 7 and bags for each? Probably not very often and the times needed I could probably go commerical and still save money compared to purchase price to achieve that for the very limited times needed. But if anything like my boats, not all 5 kids go together but most often 1 or 2 want to bring friends that take up the seats of the 1 or 2 that don't go.

In my favor is that all 5 are girls and youngest is 5 so the 7th jumper seat in Cherokee 6 could possibly work for me in the times needed..... as long as each packs only 2 swim suits and shorts and no shopping while there.

I've asked the proverbial "which plane for me" before on here and that thread pretty much ended up like this one is going and didn't intend for this to replicate that thread. This was more of me now thinking the purchase will be sooner in the process and that might include a trainer plane.

Thanks everyone for input and confirmation.
 
kfvintx said:
It is an odd dilemna for me and one I don't have the absolute answer for. Seating for 7 and bags for each? Probably not very often and the times needed I could probably go commerical and still save money compared to purchase price to achieve that for the very limited times needed.
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All the room we need for stuff is always a great excuse to buy a bigger plane. Planes are like boats in that they cost money by the foot squared, so getting that plane for the 'maximal possible mission' is rather pricy. A lot of people dont realize that it would be cheaper to buy a minivan and hire a driver to move your luggage than upgrading to the plane that can carry your entire entourage and luggage.

.. as long as each packs only 2 swim suits and shorts and no shopping while there.
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What else would you need at the beach ?

I've asked the proverbial "which plane for me" before on here and that thread pretty much ended up like this one is going and didn't intend for this to replicate that thread.
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That's just what we do here :wink2:

This was more of me now thinking the purchase will be sooner in the process and that might include a trainer plane.
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The good thing about a trainer plane like a 172 or Warrior is that you will be able to sell it for what you bought it for and usually in a rather short time.
Do you have a sales tax to contend with on a personal airplane ? Personal property tax ?
 
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