Crash this AM at SEE, 2 fatalities

^voluntary only, like those safe driver dongles. If we knew the full accident chain we may learn more to prevent future accidents. Might also exonerate some pilots, that's all

Totally not gonna happen though
 
Wow! All this speculation about what may or may not have caused the crash. And, it seems to me that the real problem is how the news station chose to spin this story up. IMHO, this is exactly the kind of media spin that could really hurt GA.
 
wilkersk said:
Wow! All this speculation about what may or may not have caused the crash. And, it seems to me that the real problem is how the news station chose to spin this story up. IMHO, this is exactly the kind of media spin that could really hurt GA.
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There have been a few fatal aviation accidents in San Diego in recent years, so the news hits on it and blows it up.

It’s an unfortunate consequence of having a much higher level of GA activity than many other parts of the country.


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From the video, looks like it might of been a stall, recovery at low altitude and then a secondary stall.
 
Fearless Tower said:
There have been a few fatal aviation accidents in San Diego in recent years, so the news hits on it and blows it up.

It’s an unfortunate consequence of having a much higher level of GA activity than many other parts of the country.


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I remember the PSA Northpark crash. But still, they really spun this story up as if specifically to provoke a response.
 
There's another video out there that shows the last bit. This video almost looks like it is going to mush slowly to the ground. The other video shows it falling like a rock after the mushing.
 
wilkersk said:
I remember the PSA Northpark crash. But still, they really spun this story up as if specifically to provoke a response.
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That happened in 1978.

I’m talking about several fatal GA accidents in the area in just the last few years. This one comes right on the heels of a fatal Bo accident into a neighborhood just 2 months ago.


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Tantalum said:
Sad indeed. It was very foggy at my house this morning, maybe 200' visibility (or whatever to the end of the cul de SAC is?).. some witnesses say they heard the engine "throttling"

I know as private individuals many folks would take issue with it, but I would if there would be some benefit to a voluntary "black box" type program for GA. So many of these accidents are left up to conjecture and result in "pilot's failure to fly the airplane" or something equally uninformative

My top questions are always
-was fuel sumped
-was run up completed
-when did the plane fly last
-what is the pilot's currency and experience
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Many E-ABs have such a thing, and you can read the investigations where it has helped identify engine status and last flight but data recorders aren't going to help with checklist or currency items.
 
FlyingTiger said:
From the video, looks like it might of been a stall, recovery at low altitude and then a secondary stall.
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Agree. I also think unless they had a lot of excess airspeed or power it would be hard to get the nose that high in the first mush/stall, so my suspicion is they had power.

No idea what really happened here but if the ASI trend is winding down rapidly you have to get the nose down, no matter what. Sigh. Power or no power.
 
Someone brought up Cessna seat rails on another forum. The seat letting go and the pilot not letting go of yoke could be consistent with what we saw. Ain't makin no judgements here on what did or didn't happen. Every accident brings up some things to think about whether or not they were the 'cause.' Check that seat before ya put that pedal to the metal
 
luvflyin said:
Someone brought up Cessna seat rails on another forum. The seat letting go and the pilot not letting go of yoke could be consistent with what we saw. Ain't makin no judgements here on what did or didn't happen. Every accident brings up some things to think about whether or not they were the 'cause.' Check that seat before ya put that pedal to the metal
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Being a newer (like 2000 or later) 182, wouldn't it have come with the backup locks on the tracks?
 
Guy I know (ATP) posted on FB that he witnessed it. Said he was stalled coming out of the clouds. Looked like mushing to me but whatever. Said he watched them pull the bodies out. Ugh.
 
James331 said:
Being a newer (like 2000 or later) 182, wouldn't it have come with the backup locks on the tracks?
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Yup - I wouldn't bet anything on that being a factor in this accident. Statistically we all know the root cause of most GA accidents is pilot error.
 
Turningfinal said:
Yup - I wouldn't bet anything on that being a factor in this accident. Statistically we all know the root cause of most GA accidents is pilot error.
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..and unfortunately this one seems like a pretty basic stall and failed recovery. Seems like engine was making power, pilot just panicked and didn't put the nose down. Very sad.. and in this case seriously preventable
 
wilkersk said:
Wow! All this speculation about what may or may not have caused the crash. And, it seems to me that the real problem is how the news station chose to spin this story up. IMHO, this is exactly the kind of media spin that could really hurt GA.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, whip up a frenzy of outrage, local news is always out to appear as grand crusaders. Ignoring the weekly bloodbath on the local roads of course. Most of the time the only injuries or deaths are those in the aircraft. But they want to paint some kind of disaster in the making that a GA aircraft flown by those "amateurs" is going to take out a school full of orphans and puppies.
 
It's all so different, because everybody drives, so people just accept it as a normal and general part of operating Society, it's a risk everybody willingly accept several times a day so they're used to it.

I feel like we see the same thing with the flu, the media has a running tally of flu deaths here.. I wonder how it compares to highway deaths, cancer deaths, Etc. The flu is one of those things like plane crashes that the media loves to put a ton of attention into for some reason.
 
Or heart attacks and strokes, lest we scare all the fatties
 
Tantalum said:
..and unfortunately this one seems like a pretty basic stall and failed recovery. Seems like engine was making power, pilot just panicked and didn't put the nose down. Very sad.. and in this case seriously preventable
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That's the problem with stall recovery training. It easy to push the nose down & decrease your angle of attack when you're 1,500 AGL. It's a whole different animal when you're close to the ground & have to push your nose down to break the stall. Often times the ground arises before the wing is flying again.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
There's another video out there that shows the last bit. This video almost looks like it is going to mush slowly to the ground. The other video shows it falling like a rock after the mushing.
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Where are ya'll seeing videos of the plane in the air? All I get are smashed plane and fire trucks . . .
 
^^AND ANOTHER FREAKING VERTICAL VIDEO. IS THIS SOME KIND OF JOKE?

thanks for the post though... definitely makes this seem like a pretty obvious stall and failed recovery.. sad that people died for something so preventable and mundane, and something we all learned to recover from in the first 10 hrs of our training
 
Tantalum said:
^^AND ANOTHER FREAKING VERTICAL VIDEO. IS THIS SOME KIND OF JOKE?

thanks for the post though... definitely makes this seem like a pretty obvious stall and failed recovery.. sad that people died for something so preventable and mundane, and something we all learned to recover from in the first 10 hrs of our training
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Yes, good post. Good narration as well. Definitely a stall and failed recovery. Suggests taking off into low level ceiling for this pilot at this point in time was a root cause.

Most of the time pilots talk about the challenges of landing in low viz and ceilings. Personally I find departing into low conditions more challenging.

Landings are preceded by flight time with working instruments, a solidly running engine, and generally no distractions in the cockpit.

Takeoffs are preceded by ground prep, untested weather, an engine just starting to run at full power and potential distractions like an unlocked seat, unlatched door, crapping or uncomfortable passengers. Challenging if it’s first flight of day, worse if first flight of the week, even worser if first flight in a month.

Never flown in or around SoCal marine layer so can’t speak to SOPs there. Where I fly, I’m in the full IFR plan school. Can always cancel.


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After seeing that second video it looks to me like they had recovered and just needed to let the plane accelerate for a bit. But they either kept pulling or started again. Dang.
 
Sounded like plenty of power too. That engine sounded healthy. Sad.

Power on stall with a wing drop, into a secondary stall.

Perhaps related to trim technique. The 182 will let you set yourself up for a trim induced stall, power on.
 
jsstevens said:
After seeing that second video it looks to me like they had recovered and just needed to let the plane accelerate for a bit. But they either kept pulling or started again. Dang.
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That is the way I saw it.
 
Wow. Looked like he had some room to maneuver VFR below the cloud base and above most obstacles, but admittedly difficult to judge that with any certainty from a short clip shot from the ground.

All speculation of course, but as Nate noted the engine seemed to be operating steadily. I only have about 16 hours in a 182T I logged last year just to try out the G1000 panel. Seemed to me a comparatively benign plane to fly. Even more so if you hang the flaps out and slow it down.

Perhaps another example of what I posted on Ted's MU2 thread earlier this week...any airplane will kill you if you disrespect its ability to do so.
 
denverpilot said:
Sounded like plenty of power too. That engine sounded healthy. Sad.

Power on stall with a wing drop, into a secondary stall.

Perhaps related to trim technique. The 182 will let you set yourself up for a trim induced stall, power on.
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Yeah. I was getting a rental checkout/flight review a couple years ago in a 182. The CFI said let's do a 'trim' stall. First I had heard that term. He said it's a requirement for CFI certification.
 
jsstevens said:
After seeing that second video it looks to me like they had recovered and just needed to let the plane accelerate for a bit. But they either kept pulling or started again. Dang.
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I thought that too, from looking at the video. Plenty of power. But at that point the ground was coming up and perhaps they unintentionally pulled back too far or too quickly, and got into a secondary stall. I dunno.
 
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GRG55 said:
Wow. Looked like he had some room to maneuver VFR below the cloud base and above most obstacles, but admittedly difficult to judge that with any certainty from a short clip shot from the ground.
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That is what makes this baffling to me. From what I saw it looks like all that was needed was power power power, wings level a little nose down to gain airspeed, find a runway and land. But as suggested by others, by the time visual contact was made with the ground panic may have already set in. We will never know what the thought process was in the pilot.

Sad day indeed. Lessons to be learned.
 
Might been incapacitated someway too and unable to recover. :(
 
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