Me too, give me something to go on besides the guy who stands to lose.
Crash near me
- Thread starter JOhnH
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Me too, give me something to go on besides the guy who stands to lose.
I listened to the tape too. But inability to communicate in a foreign language under stress is not indicative of ones ability as a pilot when not.
If I was on the jury, I would want to see it in writing with her signature. That or no prohibition existed. Show me evidence that she was not competent. The tape does not count, she was deep over her head by that point with both the plane and the language. That she was lacking in ability for the flight she set out on is self evident. However, did the flight school make that evident to her before the flight?
How did she have the keys? Did she have the clipboard?
How about 50 10"x16" color photos of her dead, laying among the wreckage of the plane she had SOLE control of.....
Yeah, sure..... had to be someone else's fault..
..What part of COMPETENT don't you understand..
How about 50 10"x16" color photos of her dead, laying among the wreckage of the plane she had SOLE control of.....
Yeah, sure..... had to be someone else's fault..
What part of COMPETENT don't you understand..
Dude, you don't get checked out in 0/0. Give me a reason she would not have passed a rental checkout.
Competence in IFR decision making doesn't reflect in a checkout.
ollopa
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Here's a clearer version of the audio with a passable transcription
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OFL9KrJTf4
My supplement / corrections to the above transcription are bolded:
She certainly wasn't exhibiting good radio procedures. I wish we could track down one of her previous instructors and find out if she was always like that or just in this kind of a panicked situation.
But I guess I'm a lot less shocked and outraged by her English proficiency than most. I couldn't even count how many Japanese I've known personally over the last decade -- a good friend of mine spent 7 years teaching English there and I guess you just wouldn't believe how many students have spent thousands of dollars and years of their lives learning little and retaining virtually none of it.
Set aside the radio procedure for a second and what you hear in that audio, in terms of pronunciation and grammar, is about as good as it gets for most Japanese English students. YES there are exceptions -- especially anyone who lived abroad as a child -- but what I'm saying is not hyperbole. Incredibly thoughtful, insightful, and intelligent people who are barely capable of expressing a salutation in English. I already explained why...
Add on the fact that their airlines are partnered with U.S. schools who deal with this language barrier and are desensitized to it every year... They know their students can fly, they know they will continue to study English throughout their lives, and they know that they are just starting a very long career in aviation and will spend a lot of their time in their home country.
Besides, I've seen a supposed checkride on YouTube (for a U.S. national) where the pilot worked the radio but the DPE instructed on every maneuver! There are people out there with lower standards than us, yes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OFL9KrJTf4
My supplement / corrections to the above transcription are bolded:
She certainly wasn't exhibiting good radio procedures. I wish we could track down one of her previous instructors and find out if she was always like that or just in this kind of a panicked situation.
But I guess I'm a lot less shocked and outraged by her English proficiency than most. I couldn't even count how many Japanese I've known personally over the last decade -- a good friend of mine spent 7 years teaching English there and I guess you just wouldn't believe how many students have spent thousands of dollars and years of their lives learning little and retaining virtually none of it.
Set aside the radio procedure for a second and what you hear in that audio, in terms of pronunciation and grammar, is about as good as it gets for most Japanese English students. YES there are exceptions -- especially anyone who lived abroad as a child -- but what I'm saying is not hyperbole. Incredibly thoughtful, insightful, and intelligent people who are barely capable of expressing a salutation in English. I already explained why...
Add on the fact that their airlines are partnered with U.S. schools who deal with this language barrier and are desensitized to it every year... They know their students can fly, they know they will continue to study English throughout their lives, and they know that they are just starting a very long career in aviation and will spend a lot of their time in their home country.
Besides, I've seen a supposed checkride on YouTube (for a U.S. national) where the pilot worked the radio but the DPE instructed on every maneuver! There are people out there with lower standards than us, yes...
ollopa
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Peanuts but it was a 152...
So are you claiming that every pilot who died of pilot error according to the NTSB was, de facto, not qualified to fly solo?
We ALL agree that she made a bad decision that led to this crash... What I'm saying, and I think Henning is agreeing with on some level, is that she clearly knew how to fly the damn plane despite the way it's being spun. There are 20,000+ hour airline pilots who make a trivial mistake and crash -- it's not that nobody should have ever signed them off but that they got sloppy one day or learned something incorrectly...
ollopa
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They both go JUST fast enough to kill you....
You know you're flying one when you have bird-strikes on the rear and side windows
Retrospect is irrelevant. This was not in evidence at the end of her prior check out flight.
This was not a trivial mistake, this was a significant mistake.
If you have a CPL and IR, you have demonstrated significant ability to tested standards. Examiners do not give wholly incompetent to solo people a CPL.
If she in fact was as incompetent as is being suggested, a lot of people in her log book have a lot to answer for.
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RotorDude
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I think we all agree on this point.
guardrail
Pre-takeoff checklist
KEVB is 5NM north of X50 and the fog was hanging out right on the shoreline all day. Safe to say your observations were accurate for the area. It pushed in as the sun began to set. Not an everyday occurrance but certainly common around here.
I think the rental FBO is making it seem like she wasn't qualified to attempt to defer liability.
JOhnH
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's what I though. I was surprised when I plotted it on foreflight and it said 20 nm. But now that I think about it, the 20nm was from where I was at the time. Not the distance between points. Dumb! I know better than that.
guardrail
Pre-takeoff checklist
Aha, I figured you knew pretty well since you are close to both.
If she had 400+ hours, a CPL, and IR, and could not pass a 152 checkout in a flight, our flight training system failed and killed her, because they instilled the false level of confidence in her.
Or... her parents money bought her the certs that killed her.....
With enough money.. You can buy anything...
....
ollopa
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I found this article with some interesting comments from the flight school owner:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/coast-guard-1-killed-in-plane-crash-on-new-smyrna-beach/30689216
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/coast-guard-1-killed-in-plane-crash-on-new-smyrna-beach/30689216
I could believe that he didn't want to sign her off because of her English but it's awfully ironic that a time building school would hold it against her for having "only" 416 hours.
Or... her parents money bought her the certs that killed her.....
With enough money.. You can buy anything...
Only if someone is selling. As I said, people have **** to answer for if that is the case.
RotorDude
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I think he might have thrown in the "hours" bit out of courtesy, since the communications part, as evidenced by that jarring audio, was clearly the issue. Of course in retrospect judgment was a big issue too, given that she had a CPL. So the question stands: how could anyone in his right mind sign her off for a solo, let alone all those ratings?
What is the key control process in use? In the end it's her fault, she was pushing too hard for the dream. Couldn't stand being an accountant and wanted the shiny jet life. She pushed herself too hard and got in over her head.
He knew about her English, it wasn't going to get better in the next few weeks, why did he accept her to begin with?
ollopa
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I know I've said this before but my guess is that she could perform fine as long as she could predict what was coming and that she got a pass on the English because she found a school that was used to training foreign pilots. At the end of the day, the evaluation of pilot performance is almost entirely subjective. Other than the written test, what objective measure is there?
The fact that anyone let her fly isn't the part that shocks me. We have enough incompetent or barely competent pilots in the country that I doubt she would be at the edge of the bell curve. I just don't understand how she could undergo all that training and pass all the written tests and yet still take the weather for granted. I really wonder about her flight briefing methodology and if she ever bothered when it wasn't a checkride.
RotorDude
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If you are right, and she is not at the edge of the bell curve of pilots commonly plying our skies, it is a very scary thought.
(I would optimistically hope she is an outlier, but I guess that's being naive.)
RotorDude
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I think the an$wer i$ obviou$.