Crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

Let's not forget, that we are all taught to fly with the stall, warning blaring during slow flight, so we get the feeling we can handle it if we get slow, just hammer the throttle drop the nose and go! Unfortunately jets engines have lag time, plus, this low dropping the nose for enough airspeed gets tough if not impossible. If it pitched up and down repeatedly he may have been pulling up before he achieved enough airspeed causing recurrent stalls.

Reasons for slow flight: geese on runway being removed, plane on down wind while your in the pattern at 3 miles out on final, couple that with a guy who sounds like he's a little shy on the throttle based on the last 2010 accident report and you've got a disaster. Tough to say for sure but the cockpit audio recording should clear it up.

We dont know if there was no call or if it just got stepped on by other calls, but That should get cleared up also.

The KHVN accident was very similar to this one, low and slow is a dangerous point in flight that unfortunately doesn't get enough respect. At KHVN I personally think when ATC got the guys tail number wrong and he had to make that correction call, he was already on overload, put him behind the plane and that was that. Unexpected distractions at a critical point can be deadly. KHVN was 900 ft ceilings and thunderstorms all over the place though, tough day.

As with most accidents it's a pile up of things going bad that gets you.

With this one,
Anyone know what the "weather coming in", in the live atc tapes was about? (Woman telling a plane in the pattern not to leave due to weather coming in) Ntsb states weather not a factor though too.

Got to feel bad for the family though, blaming them for moving there is rediculous, raising three kids is expensive and they probably were able to buy more house close to the airport. No one really expects planes to fall from the sky on their house. You've got a better chance of hitting lotto.

However, Pretty much anytime we go out and strap our azz to a kite with an engine were taking our chances.
You feel bad for everyone but especially the innocents on the ground.
 
N801BH said:
The cockpit voice recorder will explain what really happened... There is no way those three didn't utter any words..:no:
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Wonder if any of those words were, "Oh yeah, just like that, don't stop.":rofl:
 
Goes to show that total time and experience is great, but it's not the end all. At the end of the day, some pilots are just better then others and some are more prone to error then others. You'd never expect a 4500 hour pilot to stall any airplane, but it happens.
 
Phenoms don't have a stall warning horn, its a voice saying "stall, stall"

Full dirty, we circle at 120kias, most use that as the slowest speed for any operations other than a straight in landing.

Vref was probably 108-110. Just an FYI.

Engines in these spool pretty fast. A stall warning, even at max gross could be recovered from and a significant climb established in 3-5 seconds at that temp/altitude.

We DO NOT practice slow flight in these. Stalls, and thats it. There is never a training maneuver ouside of stalls that ever has a stall warning, ever! He wasn't doing anything he was trained for if he tried to slow flight a Phenom.

This guy screwed up BIG TIME! We will read about this at recurrent for the next 10 years. Unless the tapes show something, it seems like a clear cut case of doing the wrong thing at the wrong time.


Just some input there. I am an ATP with 1,200 single pilot hours in the Phenom 100. I do contract work for several companies as well, so I get to see most common flying techniques in these.
 
Turbo69bird said:
Let's not forget, that we are all taught to fly with the stall, warning blaring during slow flight, so we get the feeling we can handle it if we get slow, just hammer the throttle drop the nose and go! Unfortunately jets engines have lag time, plus, this low dropping the nose for enough airspeed gets tough if not impossible. If it pitched up and down repeatedly he may have been pulling up before he achieved enough airspeed causing recurrent stalls.

Reasons for slow flight: geese on runway being removed, plane on down wind while your in the pattern at 3 miles out on final, couple that with a guy who sounds like he's a little shy on the throttle based on the last 2010 accident report and you've got a disaster. Tough to say for sure but the cockpit audio recording should clear it up.

We dont know if there was no call or if it just got stepped on by other calls, but That should get cleared up also.

The KHVN accident was very similar to this one, low and slow is a dangerous point in flight that unfortunately doesn't get enough respect. At KHVN I personally think when ATC got the guys tail number wrong and he had to make that correction call, he was already on overload, put him behind the plane and that was that. Unexpected distractions at a critical point can be deadly. KHVN was 900 ft ceilings and thunderstorms all over the place though, tough day.

As with most accidents it's a pile up of things going bad that gets you.

With this one,
Anyone know what the "weather coming in", in the live atc tapes was about? (Woman telling a plane in the pattern not to leave due to weather coming in) Ntsb states weather not a factor though too.

Got to feel bad for the family though, blaming them for moving there is rediculous, raising three kids is expensive and they probably were able to buy more house close to the airport. No one really expects planes to fall from the sky on their house. You've got a better chance of hitting lotto.

However, Pretty much anytime we go out and strap our azz to a kite with an engine were taking our chances.
You feel bad for everyone but especially the innocents on the ground.
Click to expand...


Good post..... But...

These small diameter jet engines on biz jets nowadays spool up at about the same rate as piston stuff so using that excuse /example is invalid..

I have personally rode right seat in my friends CJ-4 with the Williams motors on it and we can go from a dead stop to rotation @ 104 knots in about 8 seconds, and in less then the distance from the runway end to the PAPI's,, or about 1300 feet.... It is IMPRESSIVE for sure...

I bet the Phenom has similar motors and going full throttle he should accellerate from 88 knots to over 100 in 5 seconds of so.... A stall warning /bitchin betty going off for 20 seconds is downright criminal in my mind...:mad2::mad2::mad2:...

I am still guessing a medical issue with the pilot and the passenger had no idea what to do...:sad::sad:

Edit...... Grant beat me to it....:thumbsup:
 
n20junkie said:
Phenoms don't have a stall warning horn, its a voice saying "stall, stall"

Full dirty, we circle at 120kias, most use that as the slowest speed for any operations other than a straight in landing.

Vref was probably 108-110. Just an FYI.

Engines in these spool pretty fast. A stall warning, even at max gross could be recovered from and a significant climb established in 3-5 seconds at that temp/altitude.

We DO NOT practice slow flight in these. Stalls, and thats it. There is never a training maneuver ouside of stalls that ever has a stall warning, ever! He wasn't doing anything he was trained for if he tried to slow flight a Phenom.

This guy screwed up BIG TIME! We will read about this at recurrent for the next 10 years. Unless the tapes show something, it seems like a clear cut case of doing the wrong thing at the wrong time.


Just some input there. I am an ATP with 1,200 single pilot hours in the Phenom 100. I do contract work for several companies as well, so I get to see most common flying techniques in these.
Click to expand...



Granted you don't practice slow flight in these , but you learned in a cessna, sundowner or something and you learned slow flight was my point. Every pilot does. I certainly was not making excuses for him at all. That doesn't mean he hadn't slowed before and pulled it off.
What I was saying is that complacency comes from getting away with things more than once, some of the most complacent pilots I know are those with over 3000hrs

I never flew any jets, so if they spool so quick , and it should
Have climbed out as stated, and he got the throttles in as ntsb said, why didn't it gain altitude? Angle of attack?
 
Turbo69bird said:
Got to feel bad for the family though, blaming them for moving there is rediculous, raising three kids is expensive and they probably were able to buy more house close to the airport.
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Gaithersburg is a relatively affluent city in a relatively affluent county (Montgomery) in Maryland.

My search on home prices had prices soaring when I looked at some near another airport (KVKX) a few years ago (1m+), so I don't think the 'this is all they could afford' idea pans out.
 
N801BH said:
I am still guessing a medical issue with the pilot and the passenger had no idea what to do
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I am not a betting man but if I had to be I would bet against such scenario. It is extremely unlikely. The pilot seems fine 7, 3 miles out and just in the last moment he gets 'incapacitated'. It is a bit like this claim from the Cory Lidle SR20 accident about aircraft controls, they were fine throughout the flight but just when they were in this critical left turn they got 'locked'. I don't buy such coincidences for a nanosecond.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Gaithersburg is a relatively affluent city in a relatively affluent county (Montgomery) in Maryland.

My search on home prices had prices soaring when I looked at some near another airport (KVKX) a few years ago (1m+), so I don't think the 'this is all they could afford' idea pans out.
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Tough crowd around here :yes:
 
Henning said:
Everybody risks their life every day regardless what they do. Living under the extended center lines of runways and getting hit by a plane and killed has Powerball odds.
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Reminds me of this, again: We worry about the wrong things, and it's killing us. But more about the non-aviation part at the beginning - People who avoid swimming in the ocean because of the "risk" of a shark attack will happily hop in their car every day, eat fatty foods, etc. that are WAY more likely to kill them.

Closing the airport would be a similar reaction.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
So...you have even less experience than the crash dude....:eek:
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How did you reach that conclusion? He said that he has 1200 single-pilot hours in the Phenom 100. If we know how many hours the accident pilot had in type, I missed it.

With very few exceptions, I would not expect a company executive to have the same type of experience or level of proficiency that is possessed by a professional pilot. That isn't to say that an executive can't operate just as safely as a professional pilot, only that there is perhaps statistically more risk that they would not.

I'm always amazed at the folks in a rush to defend accident pilots. With very few exceptions, accident pilots are all "great pilots" (and in some cases, that may actually be true), but in the end those pilots are almost always found to have some degree of culpability for the accident.

Knowledge does not necessarily indicate wisdom, and experience does not necessarily indicate proficiency. I agree that we shouldn't write the history book without an opportunity to gather all of the facts, but it is not unreasonable to draw conclusions based on what we do know at a given point in time, especially if those conclusions have a solid basis in historical fact.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
How did you reach that conclusion? He said that he has 1200 single-pilot hours in the Phenom 100. If we know how many hours the accident pilot had in type, I missed it.

With very few exceptions, I would not expect a company executive to have the same type of experience or level of proficiency that is possessed by a professional pilot. That isn't to say that an executive can't operate just as safely as a professional pilot, only that there is perhaps statistically more risk that they would not.

I'm always amazed at the folks in a rush to defend accident pilots. With very few exceptions, accident pilots are all "great pilots" (and in some cases, that may actually be true), but in the end those pilots are almost always found to have some degree of culpability for the accident.

Knowledge does not necessarily indicate wisdom, and experience does not necessarily indicate proficiency. I agree that we shouldn't write the history book without an opportunity to gather all of the facts, but it is not unreasonable to draw conclusions based on what we do know at a given point in time, especially if those conclusions have a solid basis in historical fact.


JKG
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4,500 TT, ATP CFI and typed certified in the aircraft.
 
I'm guessing in post #205 the poster means 1,200 hours in the Phenom not 1,200 TT.
 
ClimbnSink said:
I'm guessing in post #205 the poster means 1,200 hours in the Phenom not 1,200 TT.
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And that also means this accident pilot very doubtfully has near those amount of hours in the Phenom considering his A/C wasn't built until April of this year.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
So...you have even less experience than the crash dude....:eek:
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No that's not what he said. He probably has much more time in type than the dead pilot, who, just a few months before had crashed a less complex turbo prop single due to a careless series of errors and was lucky to have survived. Unlucky for those he killed later. 4500 hours total time of.......what!?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Gaithersburg is a relatively affluent city in a relatively affluent county (Montgomery) in Maryland.

My search on home prices had prices soaring when I looked at some near another airport (KVKX) a few years ago (1m+), so I don't think the 'this is all they could afford' idea pans out.
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Montgomery county is not "just affluent" rather it's the richest county in maryland, home of many many government leeches, lobbyists, defense contractors, etc. loaded with money!
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
The stall warning for 20 seconds makes me wonder if the pilot had a medical problem at a very inopportune moment. That's a LONG time. I feel like most pilots react to that sound like a German Shepherd responds to a bump in the night. I hope the CVR will reveal more of what was going on.
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Your in denial about the big factor called clutch city. In buffalo, the pilot of the Colgan turbo prop , raised the nose and did not apply FULL throttle when the stick shaker went off! Then.....the copilot dumped the flaps! Between the ears is where most screw ups happen. The pilot in DC who plunged into the Potomac did almost everything wrong,including not believing his instruments and not firewalling it when the co- pilot announced, " we're going down larry" his answer was..." I know" . It's why 80 pilots start cadets, around fourty finish. It's between the ears and how well they do under extremis. Easy in the sim but much tougher in the real world.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Montgomery county is not "just affluent" rather it's the richest county in maryland, home of many many government leeches, lobbyists, defense contractors, etc. loaded with money!
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Yet it has areas like Wheaton and parts of Silver Spring that are inner-ring suburbs not unlike the corresponding parts of PG county. The big money is in Potomac, Bethesda, Chevy-Chase. Gaithersburg is pretty much in the middle, the census tract where the accident happened has an average family income of 116k which nationally is very good but not that exceptional for a metro area.
 
Very wealthy area by anyone's standards especially since so much industry has gone overseas which has crippled the baltimore area. Government defense spending is where it's at and Montgomery county is where many of the bedrooms are. Excellent school system, etc. northern virgina, same.
 
While Montgomery County is indeed relatively affluent (see Bethesda, Rockville, etc.),
the city of Gaithersburg is not where that wealth and influence is located.

Regards,

Tim
KGAI
 
urbanti said:
While Montgomery County is indeed relatively affluent (see Bethesda, Rockville, etc.),
the city of Gaithersburg is not where that wealth and influence is located.

Regards,

Tim
KGAI
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True that. The more affluent part of Gaithersburg has now decided to call itself North Potomac to distance itself from the city proper.
 
Re: Phenom 100 crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

The southern part of Rockville also decided to call themselves "North Bethesda". I used to live there. It sounded much better than Rockville. Now I live in Germantown. We don't have any special name.


<< Sent from my mobile device at 0agl >>
 
Montgomery Village <> some other parts of the area. I once lived in a house on Warfield Rd. just outside (across street) from Montgomery Village. Nice property, many trees, no covenants, etc. It was about a mile from where the plane went down.
 
Twenty years ago I lived off Goshen Road. I think everybody who comes to the Washington area passes through Gaithersburg, primarily because it's relatively affordable. I'd leave my Cherokee at GAI and fly up to FDK for work.

There was complaining about the airport back then too.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Twenty years ago I lived off Goshen Road. I think everybody who comes to the Washington area passes through Gaithersburg, primarily because it's relatively affordable. I'd leave my Cherokee at GAI and fly up to FDK for work.

There was complaining about the airport back then too.
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ya but....back then the King's had a real farm and the car dealership. :goofy::yes::rofl:
 
Interesting article. I wonder where the woman in the article got the description, "hobby" from.

The article seems well balanced but also an advocate for aviation, while being sensitive to the current emotion of the event.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Interesting article. I wonder where the woman in the article got the description, "hobby" from.

The article seems well balanced but also an advocate for aviation, while being sensitive to the current emotion of the event.
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When I bought a house in southern MD somewhere in the stack of a paper to sign was a disclosure about 'frequent low level military flights and noise exposure from explosives testing'. The realtors in the area got sick of getting sued by home buyers who didn't understand that moving next to the navys surface warfare testing grounds may come with some noise. Many airports have 'airport zoning' as part of their FAA grant assurances (this is where the zoning authority puts an overlay zoning structure in place that comes with height restrictions). Maybe there should be a mandatory disclosure about airports for all properties built after the airport was built.
 
Re: Phenom 100 crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

Pedals2Paddles said:
The southern part of Rockville also decided to call themselves "North Bethesda". I used to live there. It sounded much better than Rockville. Now I live in Germantown. We don't have any special name.


<< Sent from my mobile device at 0agl >>
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Your town is the namesake of my first boat in the Navy. USS Germantown (LSD-42). I spent three years on her based in Sasebo, Japan. Good boat, had a lotta fun.
 
Re: Phenom 100 crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

Captain said:
Your town is the namesake of my first boat in the Navy. USS Germantown (LSD-42). I spent three years on her based in Sasebo, Japan. Good boat, had a lotta fun.
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Yeah, but that one is named after Germantown, PA not some hamlet in rural MoCo ;)
 
I see people saying that since they moved in there next to the airport now it should be closed as their safety is more important. I wonder how they would feel if the town had to compensate the businesses and owners of planes keep there if they shut down the airport? The airport is owned by the local government but what about the users of it? Would the locals be willing to pay higher property taxes to get rid of the airport?
 
Here's how I know the airport will never be closed. Guess who owns and and runs the airport? The Montgomery County Revenue Authority. The airport is a cash cow. Every business on the field pays the county a lease to be there. Every hangar and tie down pays the county. That airport is nothing but dollar signs for the county. The FBOs do all the work and the county collects all the money. It's not going anywhere.

People complaining about it happens every time a plane crashes anywhere in the country. Every day. Every airport. Once the media finds something new to talk about, the whiners will no longer have a microphone and it will be back to status quo.
 
It's the favorite word of the morons that have been complaining about the airport for decades. Don't like it, downplay it and make it sound stupid.
 
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