Cost to redo panel arrangement

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Blueangel

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So one plane under consideration has what I call a squirrely non standard six pack panel layout for the instruments. I want to fix this and install a third party STC panel from D'Shannon. How much would an A&P avionic shop charge me to do this work and how long would it take? Looking to find out from folks who went down this or a similar route. I am still a few years away from getting my A&P since I work and study part time on it.
 
Depends on who you work under.....and how
Much hand holding is needed.
 
Blueangel said:
So one plane under consideration has what I call a squirrely non standard six pack panel layout for the instruments. I want to fix this and install a third party STC panel from D'Shannon. How much would an A&P avionic shop charge me to do this work and how long would it take? Looking to find out from folks who went down this or a similar route. I am still a few years away from getting my A&P since I work and study part time on it.
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There's so many variables there is no correct answer.
 
Right Tom, I understand. Assume I buy a new panel kit from D'Shannon for 3k, how much would a shop charge me to install it and re arrange the instruments if no rewiring has to be done? So it takes 5 hours maybe to do that?
 
I'd prolly charge 3-6 hrs for that....if you want me to do it it'll prolly take 10-30 hrs.

It really is hard to tell until you get into it and have it opened up. Who knows what kind of wiring issues you're gonna uncover?
 
If your gonna tear it appart, Fast Stack it!
 
Blueangel said:
Right Tom, I understand. Assume I buy a new panel kit from D'Shannon for 3k, how much would a shop charge me to install it and re arrange the instruments if no rewiring has to be done? So it takes 5 hours maybe to do that?
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You'd have to know their shop rate, then know they will price it as a complete re-wire. plus they may be required to rebuild the radio rack to hold the new trays.

I'd estimate 40 shop hours.
 
Tom-D said:
You'd have to know their shop rate, then know they will price it as a complete re-wire. plus they may be required to rebuild the radio rack to hold the new trays.

I'd estimate 40 shop hours.
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is that different from actual hours?

I ask because that's a lot of time.
 
For some reason, when pilots do these projects themselves, they say anywhere between 5 to 15 hours. When you ask a shop, it's 40-60 hours.
Go figure.
 
midcap said:
is that different from actual hours?

I ask because that's a lot of time.
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40 hours is a work week. You get into these projects you never know what is waiting for you.
 
mtuomi said:
For some reason, when pilots do these projects themselves, they say anywhere between 5 to 15 hours. When you ask a shop, it's 40-60 hours.
Go figure.
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Because we know what can be behind the panel :)
 
I mean - let's say you have a working device X. How on earth can it take 20 or 40 hours to install a device Y in it's place.

Assuming they have roughly same functionality (like when changing a comm to another comm). Build an adapter cable for wiring (a 3-4 inch cable where one end has the connector from device X, and other end with a connector that fits device Y). Give this a few hours, with a smoke and a coffee break. A full rewire is stupidity/overkill if the old unit was working fine. Then just fit the tray, another couple of hours, write it up and job done. Easily done in one day. Still these jobs get quoted at 40 hours.
 
mtuomi said:
I mean - let's say you hav
e a working device X. How on earth can it take 20 or 40 hours to install a device Y in it's place.

Assuming they have roughly same functionality (like when changing a comm to another comm). Build an adapter cable for wiring (a 3-4 inch cable where one end has the connector from device X, and other end with a connector that fits device Y). Give this a few hours, with a smoke and a coffee break. A full rewire is stupidity/overkill if the old unit was working fine. Then just fit the tray, another couple of hours, write it up and job done. Easily done in one day. Still these jobs get quoted at 40 hours.
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because people are willing to pay for it.

The only thing I can see is that they may have to fab a bracket.....so that may take another 1-2 hours...I wish I had the access in boats that you do on airplanes.

I remember holding my co worker by the feet so I could literally pull him out of the bilge of a black jack that we had to replace the bilge pump on.

I am also willing to bet that you are subsidizing the shops learning curve on the airplane too.
 
mtuomi said:
I mean - let's say you have a working device X. How on earth can it take 20 or 40 hours to install a device Y in it's place.
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Because "Y" doesn't fit. or the holes in the rack won't match up to the new tray for "Y", so you get to build a new rack
Or
every wire behind the panel is rotten and it brakes when touched.
Or
the last 5 radio up grades the harnesses were never removed and all that stuff must be removed and the harness are all enter-twined, and must be separated, re-bundled
Then to do all this the seats must come out, and a bunch of other stuff too.
 
Tom-D said:
Because "Y" doesn't fit. or the holes in the rack won't match up to the new tray for "Y", so you get to build a new rack
Or
every wire behind the panel is rotten and it brakes when touched.
Or
the last 5 radio up grades the harnesses were never removed and all that stuff must be removed and the harness are all enter-twined, and must be separated, re-bundled
Then to do all this the seats must come out, and a bunch of other stuff too.
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On a two seater Cessna, a full and complete rewire should not take 40 hours.
I was quoted 40 hours to install a G430.
That's the level of ripoff some avionics shops operate at.

Thankfully after a couple of ripoff A&Ps I finally found a good and honest one. Now I just need to find a guy who is happy to do avionics, who's like him.
 
mtuomi said:
On a two seater Cessna, a full and complete rewire should not take 40 hours.
I was quoted 40 hours to install a G430.
That's the level of ripoff some avionics shops operate at.

Thankfully after a couple of ripoff A&Ps I finally found a good and honest one. Now I just need to find a guy who is happy to do avionics, who's like him.
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Advantage Avionics in Chino.

Might be a bit of a hike for you though. :D
 
How many here would rather get a quote for 40 hours and be done in 20, than get a quote for 20 hours and be done in 40? it's a CYA thing for the shop.
 
We did a full rewire on one of our 172s. Pulled the stack, replaced old Mark radios with 2 kx155s, hardwired iPad, and 2 nav heads. Cost was $9k and about 50 hours of labor.

There is a difference between getting a job done and getting a job done correctly. There are definitely some fly by night shops out there that will steal your money, but don't lump the whole shop community into that category because you got hosed.
 
Tom-D said:
How many here would rather get a quote for 40 hours and be done in 20, than get a quote for 20 hours and be done in 40? it's a CYA thing for the shop.
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What should happen is that I bring my plane in to the avionics shop and I pay them the 2 hours it takes to give me an "accurate estimate" meaning they take the panels down and inspect the wiring other avionics and then see what it's going to entail to install my new avionics.

At that point they come back with a estimate that should be accurate within +/-5% at that point I either tell them yes and they give me credit for the 2 hours of labor or I tell them no, and they keep the money I paid them already.
 
midcap said:
What should happen is that I bring my plane in to the avionics shop and I pay them the 2 hours it takes to give me an "accurate estimate" meaning they take the panels down and inspect the wiring other avionics and then see what it's going to entail to install my new avionics.

At that point they come back with a estimate that should be accurate within +/-5% at that point I either tell them yes and they give me credit for the 2 hours of labor or I tell them no, and they keep the money I paid them already.
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Do you really think a AV shop owner will commit 2 hours, then have you walk? the two AV shops around here are booked 6 weeks in advanced.
I'd wager they have done your job a half dozen times and know exactly how long it takes what it costs. and will give you the price right on the spot.
When they get into your job and find its a POS, your going to get a call.
 
Not to mention lots of airplanes have **** junk plastic interior parts as brittle as egg shells and expect a shop to replace it at no charge when broken.

Few have legible labeled wiring, that mean you have to find an install manual for the junk removed and work backwards before you can go forward.

Too many have messed up or missing equipment lists or weight & balance data.

I've seen one airplane get an entire makeover and not only did they NOT swing the compass but there were TWO different old correction cards left in it, both barely legible, as in completed and installed several radio jobs earlier.
 
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bnt83 said:
Not to mention lots of airplanes have **** junk plastic interior parts as brittle as egg shells and expect a shop to replace it at no charge when broken.

Few have legible labeled wiring, that mean you have to find an install manual for the junk removed and work backwards before you can go forward.

Too many have messed up or missing equipment lists or weight & balance data.

I've seen one airplane get an entire makeover and not only did they NOT swing the compass but there were TWO different old correction cards left in it, both barely legible, as in completed and installed several radio jobs earlier.
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The syndrome of, the bigger the hole gets, the bigger it needs to be.
 
Tom-D said:
The syndrome of, the bigger the hole gets, the bigger it needs to be.
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You mentioned panel rails or whatever you want to call them, fixed portion of aircraft structure that the trays fasten to, shot to shreds from numerous radio jobs, so you end up having to repair the panel just to mount trays. Some airplanes have semi replaceable rails there, others where never meant to be.

Antenna spacing is another problem. Installing a new WAAS antenna on a small plane, yeah you really need to verify spacing and maybe even relocate existing antennas. Installation STCs for GPS navigators are very specific about it. Even if the the WAAS antenna is replacing an existing non-WAAS GPS antenna. Then we find old RG58 coax at the old GPS antenna which is not acceptable per the new STC so now your into replacing that.
 
bnt83 said:
You mentioned panel rails or whatever you want to call them, fixed portion of aircraft structure that the trays fasten to, shot to shreds from numerous radio jobs, so you end up having to repair the panel just to mount trays. Some airplanes have semi replaceable rails there, others where never meant to be.

Antenna spacing is another problem. Installing a new WAAS antenna on a small plane, yeah you really need to verify spacing and maybe even relocate existing antennas. Installation STCs for GPS navigators are very specific about it. Even if the the WAAS antenna is replacing an existing non-WAAS GPS antenna. Then we find old RG58 coax at the old GPS antenna which is not acceptable per the new STC so now your into replacing that.
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Yep,, It's a real joy to re-route old Co-Ax. some of these old aircraft the interiors will fall out as dust when you try to remove them. that's when you find the old mouse nest, and the associated corrosion.
 
Know anything about putting a WAAS antennae with an already existing, and staying, IFR/GPS antennae? Im gonna have to have one for ADSB.
 
Geez guys, so glad that I decided to get my A&P and avionics licenses over next few years. The horror stories on how many shops and A&P rip off gullible pilots and so on makes my stomach churn! I am going to ask my instructors why fraud and con artists are so rampant in the aviation field compared to other trades? I know that tons of shady auto mechanics and plumbers play similar games but not as bad. I mean you take the screws and stuff off, unwire stuff, remove instruments, put the precut panel in and put everything back in then test to make sure it still works. Not exactly rocket science or brain surgery!
 
Tom-D said:
Yep,, It's a real joy to re-route old Co-Ax. some of these old aircraft the interiors will fall out as dust when you try to remove them. that's when you find the old mouse nest, and the associated corrosion.
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true but more grunt labor than rocket science.
 
bnt83 said:
Not to mention lots of airplanes have **** junk plastic interior parts as brittle as egg shells and expect a shop to replace it at no charge when broken.

Few have legible labeled wiring, that mean you have to find an install manual for the junk removed and work backwards before you can go forward.

Too many have messed up or missing equipment lists or weight & balance data.

I've seen one airplane get an entire makeover and not only did they NOT swing the compass but there were TWO different old correction cards left in it, both barely legible, as in completed and installed several radio jobs earlier.
Click to expand...

very incompetent folks out there. More reason for me to get my training and licenses to do myself so I know it is done right.
 
40-80 hours sounds about right.
<- ask him how I know

Keep in mind there is much more re-wiring involved than you think, unless the prior installation left loops of extra wire and tubing behind the panel. Not likely.

Have you called D'Shannon to ask them how much shop time their customers typically see? They've got to know.
 
Beware the shop that will do it in 4 hours and try to fix it for 40?
 
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