Cost of flying

[wsuffa]

It's tax time. Going through my financial stuff today revealed the total amount spent on the plane last year. Approx $32,000. I flew about 250 hours, meaning the cost worked out to be about $130/hour.

Largest expenses: Annual & maintenance, followed by fuel, hangar, and insurance. Maintenance this year included exhaust & turbocharger overhaul, remote gyro repairs, elevator servo repairs, and replacement of TIT instrumentation.

 

[Henning]

Not too bad, you can't rent that plane for that if you could find it to rent at all. Add to that the "convienience" and piece of mind of having and flying your own plane, and it seems to have worked out ok.

 

[Keith Lane]

You have committed the most cardinal sin of aircraft ownership!!!!
​

Never, EVER divide Dollars by hours flown. The consequences can be TERRIBLE!!!​

You just might come to your financial senses!

​

 

[Dave Siciliano]

You have committed the most cardinal sin of aircraft ownership!!!!


​

Never, EVER divide Dollars by hours flown. The consequences can be TERRIBLE!!!​

You just might come to your financial senses!




​

Please forgive Bill Keith.
He's a very talented, nice guy, just analitical.

I suffer from some of the same problem; like to quantify everything. Maybe it's why I haven't found the right woman. Heck, I got her attribute list down below 100 items--that did take a lot of work. Friend of mine that's into statistics said just the age criteria, non-smoker, college or graduate degree, athletic and three or four other things got it down to three possible women in North America. I'm trying to get the list down, but each item is pretty important!! (speaking of quantifying things )

Best,

Dave

 

[fgcason]

It's tax time. Going through my financial stuff today revealed the total amount spent on the plane last year. Approx $32,000. I flew about 250 hours, meaning the cost worked out to be about $130/hour.

But unlike the $120/hour airplane rides, you can get up at 1am with no prior arrangement and be wheels off at 2am for a 3 week vacation to any of the 4 corners of the earth you want to go to then on a whim somewhere enroute decide instead that you want to go to point 5 for 6 additional weeks.

Try that in a rental sometime.

 

[wsuffa]

Never, EVER divide Dollars by hours flown. The consequences can be TERRIBLE!!!​

You just might come to your financial senses!

​

I already have come to my senses.... and that's why I own.... and since I don't need to justify the cost to anyone but myself, it's OK.

However, since a big chunk of that (hangar, annual, insurance, gyro repairs) were "fixed" costs, the cost would be a LOT higher if I flew less.

Hennig, you're right, it's very reasonable in comparison to the cost for welded-gear rentals....

 

[wsuffa]

Please forgive Bill Keith.
He's a very talented, nice guy, just analitical.

I suffer from some of the same problem; like to quantify everything. Maybe it's why I haven't found the right woman. Heck, I got her attribute list down below 100 items--that did take a lot of work. Friend of mine that's into statistics said just the age criteria, non-smoker, college or graduate degree, athletic and three or four other things got it down to three possible women in North America. I'm trying to get the list down, but each item is pretty important!! (speaking of quantifying things )

Best,

Dave

I'd offer up my ex-wife, Dave, but last I knew she was remarried.....

 

[ErikU]

Are you crazy??? You should never, ever, ever add up all those numbers like that. And if you do,. don't share them with us!!! It gets me thinking about it way too much.

 

[judypilot]

I'm pretty quantitative and analytical. I will not finish balancing my checkbook until I have every penny accounted for (thank god for Quicken).

But even I will absolutely, positively NOT add up how much I spend on flying. The only number I see (because I have to track it in a spreadsheet) is the savings for my engine rebuild. I agree with Eric--if you add up your expenses, don't tell the rest of us because it gets us to thinking! Like bowel function and toenail fungus, some things are just not meant to be shared.



Judy

 

[Flyboy]

It's tax time. Going through my financial stuff today revealed the total amount spent on the plane last year. Approx $32,000. I flew about 250 hours, meaning the cost worked out to be about $130/hour.

Largest expenses: Annual & maintenance, followed by fuel, hangar, and insurance. Maintenance this year included exhaust & turbocharger overhaul, remote gyro repairs, elevator servo repairs, and replacement of TIT instrumentation.

I think I spent $4,000 last year.

I fly on a really tight budget.

I looked at owning outright once, (I have been a partner a long time ago and before kids showed up) I just can't afford it.

 

[RobertGerace]

Bill,

I'm glad you posted that. It makes me feel better to know I'm not alone!

 

[Tom-D]

My wife tracks the money I spend on my projects, I don't want to know, I would have a tendancy to scrimp and try to save by rebuilding some thing that should have been replaced.

If you try run the math, flight time/ money spent. $60k/0 hours/4 years.

 

[Diana]

I suffer from some of the same problem; like to quantify everything. Maybe it's why I haven't found the right woman. Heck, I got her attribute list down below 100 items--that did take a lot of work. Friend of mine that's into statistics said just the age criteria, non-smoker, college or graduate degree, athletic and three or four other things got it down to three possible women in North America. I'm trying to get the list down, but each item is pretty important!! (speaking of quantifying things )

Best,

Dave

Dave, you're single? Such a great guy is single? What else is on that criteria list?

 

[RobertGerace]

I saw a sign that said, "You can't take it with you; ask King Tut."

That about sums it up.

 

[Greebo]

I suffer from some of the same problem; like to quantify everything. Maybe it's why I haven't found the right woman. Heck, I got her attribute list down below 100 items--that did take a lot of work. Friend of mine that's into statistics said just the age criteria, non-smoker, college or graduate degree, athletic and three or four other things got it down to three possible women in North America. I'm trying to get the list down, but each item is pretty important!! (speaking of quantifying things )

Dave, have you considered some of the better online dating sites like eHarmony?

I met the love of my life on Matchmaker.com - and married her!

 

[Toby]

This thread makes me feel better (sort of). I recently added up everything, hoping to be able to deduct some of it if I can show that flight training has a direct bearing on my writing career, but my accountant tells me the IRS views the writing as a "hobby." There are all sort of restrictions on deductions.

Anyway, around $25,000 for instruction and equipment since 6/03 (that includes acro), and I'm afraid to add up what I've spent since July, just renting planes and flying out for lunches!

 

[Diana]

Anyway, around $25,000 for instruction and equipment since 6/03 (that includes acro), and I'm afraid to add up what I've spent since July, just renting planes and flying out for lunches!

Wow, Toby, that's a lot. To me (and you too I'm sure ) it's worth it at any cost.

It's hard to put a price on the kind of satisfaction and happiness that aviation (and the people you meet in aviation) can bring.

Tom and I, like many of you, sacrifice in other areas of our lives to be able to afford our flying. When I hop in the old farm truck, I have to remind myself that I'd rather have my airplane than a nice new truck.

 

[corjulo]

1. Price the thrilled of flying provides...Priceless

 

[corjulo]

1. Price the thrilled of flying provides...Priceless

For some its collecting stamps, for other it fast cars and faster woman (or men). Some fish, some hunt, some stay at home and watch sports all day..We fly. Flying steadies my emotions, keeps the mind sharp and feeds the spirit.

As long as I'm meeting family, religious and social obligation...

 

[Toby]

Wow, Toby, that's a lot. To me (and you too I'm sure ) it's worth it at any cost.

It's hard to put a price on the kind of satisfaction and happiness that aviation (and the people you meet in aviation) can bring.

Yes. I look at it like this -- it was really an income, not an expense. I took in much more than I gave out. I'm very grateful to have found a way to take this step.

Of course, I would really like to get my bathroom redone, too. *sigh*

 

[Len Lanetti]

I'm trying to get the list down, but each item is pretty important!! (speaking of quantifying things )

Dave,

FYI...I recently did a biz trip along with a single guy who is about my age...he was a pretty happy guy. He can devot as much time to his career as he likes. He lives in a cabin by a lake. Does pretty much what he wants when he wants. He has neices and nephews for when he needs a "kid fix" and he doesn't have to sent them to college.

Len

 

[Carol]

I'm pretty quantitative and analytical. I will not finish balancing my checkbook until I have every penny accounted for (thank god for Quicken).

But even I will absolutely, positively NOT add up how much I spend on flying. The only number I see (because I have to track it in a spreadsheet) is the savings for my engine rebuild. I agree with Eric--if you add up your expenses, don't tell the rest of us because it gets us to thinking! Like bowel function and toenail fungus, some things are just not meant to be shared.



Judy

BIG DITTO!!

 

[Bill]

Anyway, around $25,000 for instruction and equipment since 6/03

Got me beat, by a factor of about two.

Toby, I'm sure you've noticed nice VFR Citabrias starting in the low to mid $30k range, right?

At what you're paying, maybe it's time to buy? I know I'm probably going to start trying to scam an angle on a Citabria once I complete the acro course. (own/partner/???, gotta be a way to get some seat time somehow )

 

[judypilot]

STOP ALREADY!! I'm feeling tempted to add it all up. Stop me before I harm myself!!!!

Judy

 

[Mark S]

Bill,

Should those costs include the cost of purchasing a new plane? If so, I got everyone beat, with the possible exception of Robert Gerace.

Actually, I have to know how much it costs for tax purposes.

 

[RobertGerace]

Bill,
If so, I got everyone beat, with the possible exception of Robert Gerace.

Sigh...

Actually, I LOVE to maintain my airplane. I spent two hours with her yesterday...just looking...tinkering...pushing...pulling...polishing..fueling...

After fueling I noticed some dripping from the right-aux-tank-drain. Hmmmm...yep...it's leaking...not just crud stuck in it.

Oh well, at least I found it before I needed to go somewhere.

Meanwhile, one time the right prop didn't catch when I went to start it. (Starter adapter.) I tried again and it worked perfectly....this is a classic 'starter adapter' starting to go bad. I could 'leave it for annual' but if I do, sure enough I'll get stuck somewhere.

It turns out that to get the warranty on the new starter-adapter I have to rebuild or buy a new starter motor. (I've wanted a spare anyway...and the right engine (by coincidence) has a fairly old starter motor (the left one is new).

I'm going to buy a new one and put the old one in the baggage compartment for the day that one craps out on me.

Looking over all of this on my parts spreadsheet, I noticed that I was mistaken about the left main tube...while the tire is 2 years old the tube is not mentioned in the log (probably 20 years old). I'm getting that replaced as well.

I have two new ways of thinking:

1) if you 'wait until annual' you deprive your A&P of the ability to get in there and poke around and find little things before they become big. Also, if you spend a couple hours per week poking you can help to find these things too. The thing you find might just be a throttle linkage about to let go. (I found a small oil leak this way.)

2) I have come to accept that keeping a Twin Cessna in the air amounts to (one-to-two) hours of maintenance for each (one) hour of flight.

BUT!!!!! and this is a BIG BUT!!!!!!!:

When I go somewhere, I carry 1,600 pounds of fuel & payload at 185-190 TAS, on 28gph, above most of the weather, and with known-ice and radar and stormscope when I have no choice but to go through.

As far as I know you can't buy that today for less than $1,000,000 -- and even then I'm not sure you can do it with the redundancy of a twin.

The way I see it, I'm way ahead. :dance:

 

[Don Jones]

It does not matter what it costs, life is too short and you can't take the dough with you, soooooo have a blast and deprive your kids of an inheritance, works for me!!!
Don :dance:

 

[wsuffa]

Bill,

Should those costs include the cost of purchasing a new plane? If so, I got everyone beat, with the possible exception of Robert Gerace.

Actually, I have to know how much it costs for tax purposes.

Naw, I didn't include purchase costs. That's a capital cost that has to be amortized over the life of the plane.... using an appropriate sale value at the end.

 

[wsuffa]

Bob,

You're right. Keeping up on things instead of waiting for annual is the right way to do it. Improves dispatch rate & keeps you from breaking down on the road. That's exactly why my maintenance numbers are what they are.

Do you have C/R props? If so, does the same starter work for both sides?

 

[RobertGerace]

No to C/R props, but interestingly the same starter does work on both engines! Lucky for me!

Before long I'll be carrying an extra tube and tire (I can buy them for like $150...and mechanics charge $400 on a Saturday)...a vacuum pump, an alternater, and a starter. I'll also carry all the tools needed to change any of the above.

 

[Keith Lane]

The MAIN reason I don't add it up and divide..............

Plausible deniability

"honey, I really don't have any idea what I spent, but whatever it was, it was worth it."

I also have the advantage that 8 years ago SHE talked me into buying out the other two partners and going solo. I was ready to bail out when the other guys did.

A bit off thread here....​

I pay everything aviation in $100 dollar bills, except for insurance. I do a fair amount of freelance repair/maintenance work (non-aviation) and all that is flying cash. You'd be amazed how much you shop and consider what you're doing when you have to peel 'em off and hand 'em over. Also when the FBO/A&P/IA knows he's gonna get paid RIGHT now and in CASH, things suddenly cost less. Upgrades only occur when I can pay cash, period. I only want a good job,proper sign offs and a receipt. No flight for me is time sensitive, so I never, ever rush the work. My original partner was an A&P/IA, and nothing, and I mean nothing, pi**ed him off worse than to have an owner bug him to death about "How soon will it be done", "what's taking you so long"., only to see the plane not fly for a month or two after he finished. I know I want my work completed, but time is not that major of a concern. I also try to keep the annual in the winter to minimize down time dur to weather.

 

[Mark S]

Sigh...

Actually, I LOVE to maintain my airplane. I spent two hours with her yesterday...just looking...tinkering...pushing...pulling...polishing..fueling...

After fueling I noticed some dripping from the right-aux-tank-drain. Hmmmm...yep...it's leaking...not just crud stuck in it.

Oh well, at least I found it before I needed to go somewhere.

Meanwhile, one time the right prop didn't catch when I went to start it. (Starter adapter.) I tried again and it worked perfectly....this is a classic 'starter adapter' starting to go bad. I could 'leave it for annual' but if I do, sure enough I'll get stuck somewhere.

It turns out that to get the warranty on the new starter-adapter I have to rebuild or buy a new starter motor. (I've wanted a spare anyway...and the right engine (by coincidence) has a fairly old starter motor (the left one is new).

I'm going to buy a new one and put the old one in the baggage compartment for the day that one craps out on me.

Looking over all of this on my parts spreadsheet, I noticed that I was mistaken about the left main tube...while the tire is 2 years old the tube is not mentioned in the log (probably 20 years old). I'm getting that replaced as well.

I have two new ways of thinking:

1) if you 'wait until annual' you deprive your A&P of the ability to get in there and poke around and find little things before they become big. Also, if you spend a couple hours per week poking you can help to find these things too. The thing you find might just be a throttle linkage about to let go. (I found a small oil leak this way.)

2) I have come to accept that keeping a Twin Cessna in the air amounts to (one-to-two) hours of maintenance for each (one) hour of flight.

BUT!!!!! and this is a BIG BUT!!!!!!!:

When I go somewhere, I carry 1,600 pounds of fuel & payload at 185-190 TAS, on 28gph, above most of the weather, and with known-ice and radar and stormscope when I have no choice but to go through.

As far as I know you can't buy that today for less than $1,000,000 -- and even then I'm not sure you can do it with the redundancy of a twin.

The way I see it, I'm way ahead. :dance:

Bob,

I am very close to your thinking. Most folks "wait until the annual to fix stuff", but that can be moer expensive in many ways. Not long after I bought the 182 it ended up stuck in NJ because the stater didn't. New starter was covered by warranty, but it involved commercial tickets back and up. So, I had the old starter rebuilt and it now sits in the back of my plane. I have a spare main tire and tube that ride with me as well.

Like you, I do love to tinker with the plane doing progressive maintenance as the year goes by. My A&P says I am the only owner he trusts to do work on a plane but I always make sure he follows behind me to checking I did things right.

A friend of mine just got his Cessna 150 out of the shop after a long series of pencil annuals. The bill, $6.5K. A hard lesson to learn for him, but he now understands what it takes to properly maintain an aircraft.

Other owners at the airport consider me a little anal about maintenance, but when my 172 sold it went for more than the V-Ref value. Wonder why?

I think I'll go wax her this weekend. Anyone want a plane waxing lesson? wax on - wax off....

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave, you're single? Such a great guy is single? What else is on that criteria list?

I think we're getting off topic here

We can discuss this at Gaston's. One more item on the list besides being a nice person (which someone would really have to be to put up with me) is someone that can withstand and persevere through hardship. Find lots of folks that seem to do well when everything's O.K.

Now, back to something else near and dear to my well being--the cost of flying!!

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave,

FYI...I recently did a biz trip along with a single guy who is about my age...he was a pretty happy guy. He can devot as much time to his career as he likes. He lives in a cabin by a lake. Does pretty much what he wants when he wants. He has neices and nephews for when he needs a "kid fix" and he doesn't have to sent them to college.

Len

Thanks Len. Sounds a lot like where I am. Was married and had a couple of great kids: 28 and 35. There on their own now. My son works with me and my Daughter married a sailor who's about to retire. It's great to see them and I'm at my Daughter's now visiting my 10-month-old granddaugter and her mom and dad.

For pure fun, my nieces really take the cake!! It's so much fun to take them places and let them see the world can be a great place. Success is something to work for so one can enjoy some of the positives and help family and others.

Yes, my business will take all the time I will devote. It's pretty stressful at times. It has allowed me to build some independence and to fly--that's my number one outlet.

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Back to the cost of flying. I also kinna have to keep track of plane expenses because I do use the plane for business part of the time. But, I really try not to focus too much on it.
By the way, when funds get short you can determine the truly addicted v. the part timers by whether they defer or use retirement money for AC expenses (like I did last year). If one has the discipline to make retirement contributions v. fly, they're not really adicted!! (but may be in a position to fly more later--don't know)

I won't mention actual cost, but a few of you that seem to be bragging about how much they spent aren't even out of the minor leagues. Once you've had at least two planes for awhile, you get better prespective .

Since flying was reasonably affordable for me last year, I'm looking for another plane. Some of you know, I've been in a Baron partnership before and am flying a friend's now in addition to my A-36. Seems they just don't make one plane that can do everything one needs!!

Best,

Dave
A-36TN

 

[ggroves]

It's refreshing to be able to talk about these things on this board.

Yes...I'm addicted. Yes...I'm far more budget concious in other parts of my life than I am with flying. Yes...I add up the costs and divide by the hours...fortunately..being in a partnership...I can then divide by 1/2.

A while back, I posted my actual operating cost per hour for my 182RG by adding and dividing on another board. I was flamed for days by a rather large group of individuals who labeled me as stupid, and for continuing the myth that flying was for rich playboys. I was simply trying to give perspective to some of the guys/gals who were contemplating buying their own airplanes...not bragging about it. I don't like spending money any more than the next person. The year I did this included a few big ticket items like a new prop gov, new mag, and a new oil cooler. Last year, we put a Mattituck O/H in, and maintenance costs have gone done significantly.

It takes money to keep these birds in the air. I use the oil change visits to the A & P to give him a squawk list of the little stuff, and I don't hesitate to call him immediately for bigger items. I fly a lot of IFR so I rarely will defer anything.

And I also strongly agree with Keith. I use one shop, and have a long standing relationship with the owner. I pay the bills the same day I get the invoice. He's more expensive on some things..and less on others. But he's cut me some slack since I am a regular customer...and most important of all...I've never heard.."It's going to be a few weeks before I can get to it". He has the keys to the hangar and it usually is in the shop within 24-48 hours. That is priceless.

Greg
182RG

 

[gkainz]

snip> someone that can withstand and persevere through hardship. Find lots of folks that seem to do well when everything's O.K.

The preacher said "For better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health..."
She said "I'll take better, richer and health, please."

 

[gkainz]

Before long I'll be carrying an extra tube and tire (I can buy them for like $150)...a vacuum pump, an alternater, and a starter

Bob, your spare parts list order struck me as funny...tube and tire followed by vacuum pump... I always thought tube and tire needed an air compressor to install, not vacuum!

 

[RobertGerace]

Yeah; I don't think anybody is bragging about what they spend.

The truth of the matter is (at least for me) I like using these boards as a sanity check. It worked out well when I was learning how to fly...I would either do something, or talk about the potential for doing something (i.e. slip with full flaps in a C172) and get reaction from the pilot community.

You can't live long enough to experience everything, but by networking and asking questions, and talking about your experiences you greatly enhance your life.

A great example of this is LOP. It would have NEVER occured to me that an airplane could be operated LOP. The CPA board introduced me to the subject. Then, before I ever tried it, I posted questions. Then, after I tried it I posted experiences. I got critiques from the 'experts' and have thus adjusted my procedure a little bit.

When it comes to maintenance, well, it just sucks. In my heart and soul I believe that an extremely high percentage of accidents are the pilot's fault...either bad ADM...or bad maintenance. It is interesting that it can be traced back to money. People can't afford to go to SimCom, or take regular rides with CFI's...they can't afford to put gas in the airplane...they can't afford to rent it...they can't afford to maintain it.

So, they fly 25 to 50 hours per year. Years later, with pencil-whipped annuals and BFR's and IPC's, they over-load their airplane with people and make a smoking hole.

Now, the lawsuits begin. The manufacturers of the airplane and all the parts get hauled into court and end up paying for some idiot who didn't sump his tanks for 20 years and got away it with...only to get caught the day he took off in zero/zero with 3 people on board.

WHO made those o-rings? Certainly, a rich corporation like Cessna should make fuel-cap-o-rings that last a bazillion years! SHAME on them...they need to pay $20,000,000!

So then, you and I go to buy new o-rings and they cost $300 (made up number).

So you pay it, but then when you sump your tanks YOU come up with water. Why? Because the wrong o-ring was put on your airplane. You go back to the shop who did it, and they are out of business...or say they are approved for your airplane (even though there are 100's of articles on the Internet saying that they suck)...and what? you're going to haul them in to court over $300?

So you try to learn, by posting your experiences here, and saying, "I just spent $15,000 in parts and $5,000 in labor for an Avidyne" (Or, "I'm about to...")... and you hope that the kind people on the Internet tell you that you're crazy because you SHOULD be doing such-and-such.

When people post stuff like, "I spent $xx,xxx" on flying last year...I don't look at it as bragging...I look at it as a self-sanity-check. Am I crazy? Is this what it takes? Am I getting ripped off? Is there a better way? Could I be doing this more efficiently? Could I spend less and be safe and have a reliable dispatch rate?

 

[RobertGerace]

Bob, your spare parts list order struck me as funny...tube and tire followed by vacuum pump... I always thought tube and tire needed an air compressor to install, not vacuum!

Yeah; actually I think I can skip the vacuum pump because all I need to do is to install the state of maintenance for GA aircraft in 2005 on my engine and I'll have all the *suction* I'll ever need.