COPA says AOPA is wrong about Canadian private ATC.

But they can't carry guns on airplanes like we can in the US of A. And they think Tim Horton's is better than Dunkin' Donuts. Ayyy?
 
'17,000 members “are largely satisfied with the service we receive from Nav Canada and all of them take exception '

Except, without all the user fees (and excess regulation) that number would be 100,000.

Not to mention, the general attitude there is to "not fight these things, accept what has come onto us"
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
'17,000 members “are largely satisfied with the service we receive from Nav Canada and all of them take exception '

Except, without all the user fees (and excess regulation) that number would be 100,000.

Not to mention, the general attitude there is to "not fight these things, accept what has come onto us"
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The "excess regulation" doesn't come from Nav Canada. Let's keep that straight.
 
Until they fly in the US at some point, any Canadian pilot with much flying experience, flying in both countires, will tell you the US system is MUCH better.
 
James331 said:
Until they fly in the US at some point, any Canadian pilot with much flying experience, flying in both countires, will tell you the US system is MUCH better.
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I know plenty of Canadian pilots who frequently fly in the US. I have never heard any express preference for the US system, or the Canadian system, for that matter. I find them pretty much the same.
 
Having flown in both countries, the only difference is there is a lot of uncontrolled airspace Canada. Which is quite nice.
 
Clip4 said:
Having flown in both countries, the only difference is there is a lot of uncontrolled airspace Canada. Which is quite nice.
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The reason for having a lot of uncontrolled airspace in Canada is because of the system in Canada, that stops the GA from growing or operating. All the pilots that I've met, that came from Canada and or Europe were very happy, and tankful, to the USA's system, and None said they were happy with what they had.

I would assume that some, that do not know any better and flown here and used our system, may be satisfied. They are having trouble getting digitized Charts and are begging developers in the USA to get them for them to use.

No, we do not want what is in Canada or Europe, we paid, and are still paying, for this system and do not want to have it changed and have that money used for who knows what. You and I know that those taxes, and other charges that we pay for now, will never be reversed, they will just use them for other useless projects.
 
bluesideup said:
The reason for having a lot of uncontrolled airspace in Canada is because of the system in Canada, that stops the GA from growing or operating.
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This statement does not make any sense.

I suspect the reason there is a lot of uncontrolled airspace in Canada is that there is not a lot of traffic, except for near the southern border, unless you count the polar routes. The airplanes on the polar routes are in Class A anyway.
 
Everskyward said:
I suspect the reason there is a lot of uncontrolled airspace in Canada is that there is not a lot of traffic, except for near the southern border, unless you count the polar routes. The airplanes on the polar routes are in Class A anyway.
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That there. Canada's landmass is a bit bigger than the US landmass but we have about a tenth of the US's population, and 80% of that lives within 160 miles of the Canada/US border. What's the point of a bunch of controlled airspace over a bunch of mostly unoccupied territory with no traffic?

us_population_2005_lrg.jpg
 
How sweet it will be for all those pilots and owners here, who seem to favor privatization and user fees, to say "yay, I win" after it is finally forced onto us, right?
 
Dan Thomas said:
That there. Canada's landmass is a bit bigger than the US landmass but we have about a tenth of the US's population, and 80% of that lives within 160 miles of the Canada/US border. What's the point of a bunch of controlled airspace over a bunch of mostly unoccupied territory with no traffic?

View attachment 55651
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Great, now the Earth's got acne. What to go Canada.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That there. Canada's landmass is a bit bigger than the US landmass but we have about a tenth of the US's population, and 80% of that lives within 160 miles of the Canada/US border. What's the point of a bunch of controlled airspace over a bunch of mostly unoccupied territory with no traffic?

View attachment 55651
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Maybe a more important statistic would be how many aircraft / pilots are in Canada vs US?
That said if you like your ATC you can keep your ATC, we do not want to be like Canada.
 
Everskyward said:
I know plenty of Canadian pilots who frequently fly in the US. I have never heard any express preference for the US system, or the Canadian system, for that matter. I find them pretty much the same.
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That would be me.
Nav Canada provides ATC. ATC is ATC. I don't notice much difference either side of the border frankly. Most controllers do a great job that I appreciate, very occasionally there's one having a bad day.

But in terms of administering any system (ATC, healthcare, whatever) what works for a sparsely populated country doesn't necessarily translate well to a vast and populous nation like the USA.
 
GRG55 said:
I don't notice much difference either side of the border frankly.
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Maybe you can post some information on where a Canadian pilot can get Free digitized Charts?
Privatized does not mean that only ATC goes away, everything we pay for goes away.
 
bluesideup said:
Maybe a more important statistic would be how many aircraft / pilots are in Canada vs US?
That said if you like your ATC you can keep your ATC, we do not want to be like Canada.
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Presently all pilot licence holders represent about 0.174% of the Canadian population. Of that 61% are private + recreational licence holders (the remainder commercial & ATP). The comparable figure for all licence holders in the USA appears to be about 0.183% of the population, not a huge difference (despite the apparent imminent demise of aviation in Canada :rolleyes: ).

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see anywhere on this thread where anybody advocated the USA should be like Canada, ATC or otherwise.
 
bluesideup said:
Maybe you can post some information on where a Canadian pilot can get Free digitized Charts?
Privatized does not mean that only ATC goes away, everything we pay for goes away.
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Chill out man. Maybe it will help your reading comprehension.
As I said, what works in one jurisdiction doesn't necessarily translate well to another (that works both ways, btw).
 
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GRG55 said:
Chill out man. Maybe it will help your reading comprehension.
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You need the reading comprehension. Read my message again, it's how many, not the percentage.

I like it hot.
Again if Canadians like their system, and try to fly without charts and minimum safety, they can keep that, but not propagate that misery to others.

Again, the point is that we have a system that we are paying for, and it's much safer that any other models, and there is no reason to mess with it.
 
bluesideup said:
Again, the point is that we have a system that we are paying for, and it's much safer that any other models, and there is no reason to mess with it.
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It is not "much safer" than the Canadian model. Not arguing for or against privatization, but I would say the main thing going for the way we are doing it now is that the system to collect the money is already in place, with fuel taxes. All the other arguments about private ATC being less safe, less efficient, etc. don't hold up for people who have flown there.
 
Everskyward said:
It is not "much safer" than the Canadian model. Not arguing for or against privatization, but I would say the main thing going for the way we are doing it now is that the system to collect the money is already in place, with fuel taxes. All the other arguments about private ATC being less safe, less efficient, etc. don't hold up for people who have flown there.
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The only reason it Looks safe there is because there are fewer aircraft in the sky, over the same area, at any one time. Much like flying in USA in areas that are Uncontrolled / no airports around.

If you were to have all the VFR pilots flying near Class Bs, well within the FAA regulations, in USA, without the use of ATC / Flight following, the accident / death rates from collisions will likely double, and there are areas where the delays to the commercial flights will increase.
There is a symbiotic relationship between ATC / Commercial / VFR pilots, and changing it does not help anyone, including the so called taxpayers savings, and or Commercial operations.
I predicted, many years ago, that the Commercial / Airlines will have to pay for their own training, many billions$$, by undermining the GA years ago, and now the time is here.
I will now predict that the Commercial / Airliners, will have to get the Congress to change the rules, to get pilots with less experience in the cockpit, making the flying less safe for everybody, and change many of the Airspaces around the busy airports, to prevent delays and possible deadly collisions.

The politicians will find a way to spend your money on something else.

There is a huge difference between just flying in Canada, from USA, just to visit, and the Canadians that fly there all the time.

I never encountered a Canadian that came here, in USA, and used our system, and considered the Canadian system to be acceptable, after they experienced what we have. If you don't know any better anything is good / acceptable.
 
bluesideup said:
The only reason it Looks safe there is because there are fewer aircraft in the sky, over the same area, at any one time. Much like flying in USA in areas that are Uncontrolled / no airports around.

If you were to have all the VFR pilots flying near Class Bs, well within the FAA regulations, in USA, without the use of ATC / Flight following, the accident / death rates from collisions will likely double, and there are areas where the delays to the commercial flights will increase.
There is a symbiotic relationship between ATC / Commercial / VFR pilots, and changing it does not help anyone, including the so called taxpayers savings, and or Commercial operations.
I predicted, many years ago, that the Commercial / Airlines will have to pay for their own training, many billions$$, by undermining the GA years ago, and now the time is here.
I will now predict that the Commercial / Airliners, will have to get the Congress to change the rules, to get pilots with less experience in the cockpit, making the flying less safe for everybody, and change many of the Airspaces around the busy airports, to prevent delays and possible deadly collisions.

The politicians will find a way to spend your money on something else.

There is a huge difference between just flying in Canada, from USA, just to visit, and the Canadians that fly there all the time.

I never encountered a Canadian that came here, in USA, and used our system, and considered the Canadian system to be acceptable, after they experienced what we have. If you don't know any better anything is good / acceptable.
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I flew an airplane that was owned by a Canadian company, and I know many Canadian pilots who frequently flew to the US. I never once heard any of them say their ATC system was unsafe or that ours is better.
 
Everskyward said:
I flew an airplane that was owned by a Canadian company, and I know many Canadian pilots who frequently flew to the US. I never once heard any of them say their ATC system was unsafe or that ours is better.
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I think we are deviating form the subject, and don't know what anyone heard or not , but the facts are we are getting pilots that come to USA to learn and accumulate hours, and I am sure none would do it if where they come from has a better system.
I am also convinced that privatizing our system will Not improve it. And that is the point I am trying to get across.
Others, from other countries, if they like their system, keep it, but don't come here and try to get us to get to their level, and convince others that their system is better or just as good, because it is Not.
 
It's less expensive to accumulate hours here in the states, but the cost and efficiency of ATC has very little to do with it, at least as far as Canada is concerned.
 
SkyDog58 said:
So if AOPA is for people who own aircraft, is COPA for people who own Canadians?
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AOPA hasn't written any significant pieces of work on aircraft ownership in my lifetime, nor does membership help owners in the slightest. But that's neither here, nor there.

I'm just amazed AOPA didn't chastise COPA for disagreeing with them, and the Canadians didn't immediately apologize profusely with "Sohhh-ry... sohhh-ry... here, have some back bacon and a Tim Hortons... you'll feel better..." :)
 
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