Concealed Handgun License

[fgcason]

How do you guys feel about carrying a survival firearm in the aircraft when you're flying over wilderness?

It's mostly it's a waste of ballast that could be used for extra fuel.

Define wilderness. Siberian tiger country Russia or polar bear country AK? Or the lower 48 USA?

If it's the lower 48, you are at much much MUCH more risk in civilization from wacko people out to cause you grief than from anything you'll find in the woods. Seriously, contrary to popular city people myths, the wilderness here is quite safe as long as you don't do anything incredibly stupid like going up and trying to pet a bear cub with momma bear 10 feet away. The animals will leave you alone for the most part. People will attack you for no reason without provocation. As for food supply, if you're decently fed before flying, you can walk out of most anywhere here before food becomes a problem.

You don't pull the gun without pulling the trigger.
It is an absolute last resort.
Pulling it as a show of force is bad mojo.

So what you're saying is that even if you have the option to get out of the situation without shooting someone you're better off shooting than escaping without shooting? (say a simple case of a meth head pulling a knife on you at 20 feet screaming they're going to kill you and you can deter them by letting them look down the barrel instead of shooting and ending up in prison for 20 years then getting the gas chamber for murdering a wacked out nutjob)
There are times that the first warning they need is the lead powered shockwave followed by the bang sound, others maybe not so much.

$150,000 minimum is what I've been told, is what it will cost if you use the gun well.

At what point do you work out the fiscal advantage of just handing them your gun so they can kill you instead of defending yourself? I'm certainly not fiscally worth $150K to anyone dead or alive therefore it's a bad fiscal decision to defend myself.

 

[weilke]

But I like my AK better than my 30/30

Yeah that could be an issue in MD. Unmodified SKS is ok :wink2: .

 

[Rex Kramer]

My initial thouht would be strong encouragement to put a knife away/get it away from me and ket me get away. But you all are absolutely right. Pulling a trigger would be bad. I would not want to have to justify my decision. Reading the comments I'm not sure id want to carry.

It's been proven time and time again that a man wielding a knife within 21' of a person carrying a pistol can charge and stab them before they are able to draw and fire their pistol. As far as I'm concerned, having a knife pulled on me is the threat of deadly force and will act accordingly.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill


From the police officer perspective, but still worthy of a read:

Part 1
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weap...ense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

Part 2
http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=113907




Of course every situation is dynamic and there is no "I will always do this" answer. But if I'm threatened by a person with a knife, my pistol will most definitely not be in my holster.

 

[Gerhardt]

If you are truly in a situation that justifies pulling out your gun, pull it and shoot to kill.

Nope. You don't shoot to kill. You don't shoot to maim.

You shoot to stop the immediate threat, and retreat. Which is why you're taught to aim at the center of mass. And also why, in many states, your qualifying rounds are at a very short distance, ours being 21 feet. Beyond that and the theory is that you could have retreated w/o the need of using your gun.

 

[dell30rb]

So what you're saying is that even if you have the option to get out of the situation without shooting someone you're better off shooting than escaping without shooting? (say a simple case of a meth head pulling a knife on you at 20 feet screaming they're going to kill you and you can deter them by letting them look down the barrel instead of shooting and ending up in prison for 20 years then getting the gas chamber for murdering a wacked out nutjob)
There are times that the first warning they need is the lead powered shockwave followed by the bang sound, others maybe not so much.

He definitely said last resort. If you can escape, no reason to pull the gun in the first place.

I'd shoot anyone who pulled a knife on me and screamed that they were going to kill me from 20 feet away. That's just a few quick strides. If the guy has major drugs in his system, a knife in his hand and gets found dead by the cops (assuming your next reaction is to call the cops and cooperate / get a lawyer), you're in good shape.

If he was farther away i'd try to reason with him (or ignore depending on circumstances) and walk away if possible / call the cops. If he began closing the distance on me, I would wait until he was close enough that I was actually in danger of him jumping me before I can pull and aim, then pull and shoot. This distance depends on a few things.

The problem with drawing on someone and trying to intimidate them to avoid a violent scenario is that it can easily be turned against you. Pulling a gun on someone looks very very bad.

 

[dell30rb]

Nope. You don't shoot to kill. You don't shoot to maim.

You shoot to stop the immediate threat, and retreat.

Very true, shoot to kill is not correct. Aim for the center of mass, and continue firing until the attacker is "down and leaking hydrualic fluid" according to the LEO who taught the class my friend went through.

21 feet sounds pretty draconian. That article mentions that 21 feet is not enough to stop a knife attack for most officers / situations. If an officer cannot meet that criteria most of the time, how can a citizen who shoots every other month be expected to defend him/herself

 

[BellyUpFish]

If an officer cannot meet that criteria most of the time, how can a citizen who shoots every other month be expected to defend him/herself

Shoot more. I put more bullets down range than most officers I know.

If you're not proficient with your weapon, leave it at home.

 

[ajstoner21]

Wow lots of good comments and facts. Thanks guys. I might take the training and class just to get knowlege even if i dont intend to carry.

 

[Gerhardt]

For some excitement I'll throw some fuel on this fire.

I carry, even at home. But I saw a news show on tv with a video clip that has me concerned even in my own house. Down in the southeast, AZ IIRC, a woman hears something outside and alerts her husband, who recently retired from the military. He puts her and their 4 year-old in the closet and grabs his gun. As he's heading for the front door the police, who are there to serve a warrant, break down the door. The first cop trips over his own feet, the other cops think he's been shot and see the homeowner with a gun and open fire. They fire 72 rounds and only hit him twentysome times, which is another story in itself. When the smoke settles they discover the man's gun's safety is still on. The important part is that the prosecutor says the cops did nothing wrong becaused they believed they were in harms way.

I still answer my front door with one hand on my gun, but it doesn't leave the holster.

 

[Palmpilot]

Good out of it? I've gotten out of at least 3 tickets with the weapon sitting on my passenger seat..

How did having a weapon on your passenger seat help you get out of those tickets?

 

[weilke]

I carry, even at home. But I saw a news show on tv with a video clip that has me concerned even in my own house. Down in the southeast, AZ IIRC, a woman hears something outside and alerts her husband, who recently retired from the military. He puts her and their 4 year-old in the closet and grabs his gun. As he's heading for the front door the police, who are there to serve a warrant, break down the door. The first cop trips over his own feet, the other cops think he's been shot and see the homeowner with a gun and open fire. They fire 72 rounds and only hit him twentysome times, which is another story in itself. When the smoke settles they discover the man's gun's safety is still on. The important part is that the prosecutor says the cops did nothing wrong becaused they believed they were in harms way.

Dont get involved with drug dealers and you dont have to worry about this particular scenario.

 

[cavmedic]

Dont get involved with drug dealers and you dont have to worry about this particular scenario.

I have to concur with this.

There is helmet cam footage from one of the officers participating in the raid, but not on the entry team . Prior to entry , they blasted a siren for a few seconds , then yelled police , then breached. Granted they did this within a few seconds , but the officer tripped , fell or what ever, next inline seen guy coming towards them with an AR pointed at them , and they just unloaded.

Later reports show this guy was investigated and arrested numerous times ,due to his "alleged" involvement of drug dealings with his brother ( I think it was) but no charges were ever filed.

 

[dell30rb]

Dont get involved with drug dealers and you dont have to worry about this particular scenario.

Understandable, but police officers do sometimes break down the door of the wrong house when serving an arrest warrant. Usually its a similar name, or the neighbor's house type of deal.

I agree you should shoot regularly and maintain proficiency if you carry a gun. But if the pros (cops) have trouble meeting the 21 foot standard as mentioned in the articles posted earlier, how is it reasonable to assume that your average joe is going to be able to meet that standard. You shouldn't need to be Tex McFastdraw in order to defend yourself.

 

[Gerhardt]

Dont get involved with drug dealers and you dont have to worry about this particular scenario.

Not even close to being true. Granted, your odds go up, but the police knock on innocents' doors every day for routine things. If one of them answers the door holding a firearm he could be dead meat before he has time to re-holster.

 

[cavmedic]

Understandable, but police officers do sometimes break down the door of the wrong house when serving an arrest warrant. Usually its a similar name, or the neighbor's house type of deal.

Unfortunately this does happen , but I chalk that up to the home owner not properly displaying the numerics on the home or mailbox. How is an ambulance or warrant service supposed to know where to go , if its not properly marked

 

[weilke]

Understandable, but police officers do sometimes break down the door of the wrong house when serving an arrest warrant. Usually its a similar name, or the neighbor's house type of deal.

In the case referenced above, they broke down the right door*.

* In the sense that the ex-marine was a legitimate target of the investigation at the time. At this point however, none of the other subjects served with warrants that day have been charged with any crime related to the investigation despite the fact that drugs, illegal weapons and stolen vehicles were retrieved at the time. We'll see, this isn't over yet.

 

[cavmedic]

Not even close to being true. Granted, your odds go up, but the police knock on innocents' doors every day for routine things. If one of them answers the door holding a firearm he could be dead meat before he has time to re-holster.

If you are going to answer every knock on the door with an un holstered firearm .............. perhaps a peep hole should be installed.

 

[Gerhardt]

But if the pros (cops) have trouble meeting the 21 foot standard as mentioned in the articles posted earlier, how is it reasonable to assume that your average joe is going to be able to meet that standard.

It's very reasonable to expect ANYONE with a gun to hit a large target at only 21 feet. Any police officer who misses a target at that distance should be encouraged to find another line of work. When 2/3 of the rounds fired by a group of officers miss their mark at such a close range...

 

[Skylane81E]

It's very reasonable to expect ANYONE with a gun to hit a large target at only 21 feet. Any police officer who misses a target at that distance should be encouraged to find another line of work. When 2/3 of the rounds fired by a group of officers miss their mark at such a close range...

It's not hitting your target at 7yds that's the issue, it's drawing and hitting before te guy 21ft away guts you with his knife.

 

[Gerhardt]

If you are going to answer every knock on the door with an un holstered firearm .............. perhaps a peep hole should be installed.

Until I saw that video I always had mine in-hand and out of sight when answering the door. Every time, beginning two years ago.

I live in one of the nicer neighborhoods in our town of 125,000 or so. Two years ago one of my neighbors, a wheelchair-bound Viet Nam vet, opened his door to a group of youths who held him and his wife at gunpoint and one beat him in the face with the gunstock while the others ransacked their house.

I'm aware that this is atypical, but it certainly doesn't bother me to carry, even in my own home.

 

[dell30rb]

It's very reasonable to expect ANYONE with a gun to hit a large target at only 21 feet. Any police officer who misses a target at that distance should be encouraged to find another line of work. When 2/3 of the rounds fired by a group of officers miss their mark at such a close range...

I was referring to the article mentioned earlier. It was a law enforcement study of the 21 foot rule. The time it takes an AVERAGE suspect to go from a dead stop on a flat surface with good traction, run 21 feet and stab someone is 1.5-1.7 seconds. The time it takes an average officer to draw and shoot one unsighted round (after) a threat is perceived is 1.5 seconds.

This means that if an attacker (meth head with knife would work in this case) decides to run at you from 20 feet away, you're probably going to get stabbed.

Anyone can hit a target at 21 feet. That was not the point of my post.

The article was arguing that the standard for defense against such an attack should be a distance that an officer can draw and shoot 2 sighted rounds once a knife attacker runs at them. And that 21 feet does not allow for this in a vast majority of situations. Of course this depends on the officer and the attacker and a host of other situations. You wouldn't be in danger from a stumbling drunk homeless guy at 21 feet but you would be completely screwed in the knife wielding meth head scenario.

 

[Morne]

But if the pros (cops) have trouble meeting the 21 foot standard as mentioned in the articles posted earlier, how is it reasonable to assume that your average joe is going to be able to meet that standard. You shouldn't need to be Tex McFastdraw in order to defend yourself.

Cops are not necessarily pros with guns anymore than they are pros with their radios or cars. Race car drivers drive better, ham radio operators communicate better and competitive shooters shoot better than the average cop every day.

To a cop, his gun is just one more tool in his toolbox. There is a LOT more to police work than skill with firearms. Interviewing techniques, evidence collection, searching detainees and navigating the legal system are all skills they employ more frequently than their guns.

Sure, cops have an annual proficiency they must demonstrate with their sidearm. Some cops also shoot competitively and they are very skilled. I can guarantee you that I shoot more rounds in a year than the average cop, but that's because I find it to be an enjoyable pursuit. It also keeps my skills at a comfortable level on the off chance that I should need them.

I'm not a cop and don't pretend to be one. I'm just a guy who wants to live to see tomorrow and protect my family.

Just like flying, defensive shooting skills are perishable. Fortunately, just like flying keeping them in practice is fun. And while shooting can be expensive, it ain't NUTHIN compared to the cost to fly!

 

[BellyUpFish]

Not even close to being true. Granted, your odds go up, but the police knock on innocents' doors every day for routine things. If one of them answers the door holding a firearm he could be dead meat before he has time to re-holster.

Do they knock on these doors with weapons drawn?

 

[Gerhardt]

Do they knock on these doors with weapons drawn?

In this case they didn't even knock on the door with their brains drawn.

Or their shoes tied.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-cop. It's just that I'm more pro-citizen. And in this case I think the cops participating in the raid should be prosecuted.

 

[dell30rb]

Cops are not necessarily pros with guns anymore than they are pros with their radios or cars. Race car drivers drive better, ham radio operators communicate better and competitive shooters shoot better than the average cop every day.

I hear that, but it stands to reason that because of their profession, they are (as a whole) at a level of proficiency significantly higher than that of the average gun owner.

 

[Gerhardt]

I hear that, but it stands to reason that because of their profession, they are (as a whole) at a level of proficiency significantly higher than that of the average gun owner.

Or at least they should be. That group down in AZ wasn't.

 

[fgcason]

He definitely said last resort. If you can escape, no reason to pull the gun in the first place.

Agreed. But here's a scenario that doesn't necessarily fit the black and white solutions: If it's a 100ft run to a closed door that pulls inward toward you and the hooligan is 30 feet away, is there an escape option or not? You have to get to the door, stop, grab the handle and pull then go through and keep running. Do you not pull the gun and run away (escape option technically available) or shoot (likely impossible to get through before getting knifed)? Or, if time and distance permits, pull and tell them precisely how the scenario is going to work out..by letting them chose whether you shoot them or you run away on your own terms?

The problem with drawing on someone and trying to intimidate them to avoid a violent scenario is that it can easily be turned against you. Pulling a gun on someone looks very very bad.

You never pull to intimidate. You pull to defend yourself. In some circumstances it's possible to get out of the situation without jail and a year of legal problems for dropping some thug. As whether it looks good or not, who cares about social status and polite protocol when someone is threatening to kill you?

There are way too many variables for a simple straightforward answer to every possible scenario.

Thought before action...if one has time.

 

[Skylane81E]

Most of us have probably seen the video of e police shoot out with the Kehole (sp) brothers here in Ohio at some point. Both the deputy and the suspect emptied weapons at each other from very close range. No one hit anything. The deputy was my school resorse officer and had a reputation as being a good shot.

 

[cavmedic]

Most of us have probably seen the video of e police shoot out with the Kehole (sp) brothers here in Ohio at some point. Both the deputy and the suspect emptied weapons at each other from very close range. No one hit anything. The deputy was my school resorse officer and had a reputation as being a good shot.

I can damn near shoot the same hole rapid firing @ 20 yards at the range , but add stress , commotion , trying to see the big picture and adrenalin to the mix ..... The only thing that may carry over at that moment is the muscle memory of when the striker fires and how far to release for reset. Sure isn't going to be the sharp shooting.

 

[HarryC]

Well I could carry Angie around, but she has a job...

Love ya buddy... When you coming to Jersey? Home to the most anti gun ownership laws in the world?

Might need ya for the big push now that you have the house all done...LOL!!!

 

[Flybytex]

At what point do you work out the fiscal advantage of just handing them your gun so they can kill you instead of defending yourself? I'm certainly not fiscally worth $150K to anyone dead or alive therefore it's a bad fiscal decision to defend myself.

I agree. If the situation arises where you believe your life may be in danger, do you really care that it will cost you money if you live through the ordeal? No! $150,000 is a cheap sum for the cost of your life.

And anyway, like I said earlier in Texas (where I think the originator of this topic is from and asking about a chl here), if you follow the rules and use proper judgement, you will not be prosecuted criminal nor civilly. You can't stop someone from filling a bogus lawsuit but it should be thrown out rather quickly.
Also Texas is a "no retreat" state. Unlike some other states you are not required to attempt to retreat from the situation before using your weapon.

I think people shouldn't be as obsessed with the possible legal/financial outcomes of having to use your weapon, they should be more concerned that carry a weapon may have just saved your life or the lives of those around you.

 

[Maxmosbey]

If you are going to answer every knock on the door with an un holstered firearm .............. perhaps a peep hole should be installed.

I just can't imagine living is such fear that I have to answer your door with a gun in hand. I will admit however that if someone is ringing my front doorbell I look out the window to see who it is before I open the door. The problem is in the spring, summer, and early fall, I leave only the screen door shut, and not locked. Until after dark anyway. So I guess I'm living on the edge, but I can't live always afraid that someone is going to get me.

 

[Anthony]

I hear that, but it stands to reason that because of their profession, they are (as a whole) at a level of proficiency significantly higher than that of the average gun owner.

Not the ones I have come in contact with which have been several. The come to my gun club to practice before qualifying which is the ONLY time they shoot all year. I'm not saying they are all poor with firearms, but they are much less proficient than gun owners who shoot guns as a hobby or competitively. Maybe that's not the "average" gun owner, but those are the ones I come in contact with. People who shoot, and practice often, and I don't think most LEO's fall into that category. They have a gun because they HAVE to have one.

 

[weilke]

I just can't imagine living is such fear that I have to answer your door with a gun in hand.

Whenever I hear the guys who have guns stashed in every room of the house, carry indoors and answer the door for the fedex man with one hand on the holster, I think to myself: 'Hey buddy, maybe you should move away from the neighborhood of crack-houses or the civil war zone that you apparently reside in.'

Yes, home invasions happen, at times in good neighborhoods or to people who haven't done anything to bring it upon themselves. Those cases are uncommon.

 

[Gerhardt]

Whenever I hear the guys who have guns stashed in every room of the house, carry indoors and answer the door for the fedex man with one hand on the holster, I think to myself: 'Hey buddy, maybe you should move away from the neighborhood of crack-houses or the civil war zone that you apparently reside in.'

Yes, home invasions happen, at times in good neighborhoods or to people who haven't done anything to bring it upon themselves. Those cases are uncommon.

I think every home invasion is uncommon.

 

[Maxmosbey]

I think every home invasion is uncommon.

I don't know, if you are a big drug dealer, you keep lots of drugs and cash in your house, and you rip off rival drug dealers, it might not be so uncommon.

 

[DaleB]

Yes, home invasions happen, at times in good neighborhoods or to people who haven't done anything to bring it upon themselves. Those cases are uncommon.

Uncommon, yes. Unheard of, no. A good friend of mine and his wife were murdered in their rural home by someone they had never met, and who had absolutely no reason to do anything to them. And you couldn't ask to meet two nicer, more law abiding and less trouble-probe people.

Spontaneous engine failures in flight are uncommon. Instrument failures are uncommon. Kitchen fires are uncommon. I haven't needed to use either a gun or a fire extinguisher in my house, and I hope I never need either one. That doesn't mean I'm not going to keep either of them around. We protect ourselves from various disasters, natural and man-made, as best we can.

 

[weilke]

Uncommon, yes. Unheard of, no. A good friend of mine and his wife were murdered in their rural home by someone they had never met, and who had absolutely no reason to do anything to them. And you couldn't ask to meet two nicer, more law abiding and less trouble-probe people.

I am sorry for your loss.

Yes, as I said, those home invasions do happen, no doubt. But having unsecured firearms in different places of a home creates the risk of arming an intruder who otherwise may not have been armed. This was a case in MN a couple of years ago where a drunk who had gotten stuck in the ditch in front of a house murdered the homeowner with his own shotgun and severly injured the wife. The 13 year old son was on the phone with police dispatch when the intruder found him and finished him off as well:

http://www.startribune.com/local/11556036.html

Add to that the hundreds of cases every year where harm is done accidentally with unsecured firearms and the risk/benefit ratio of having them distributed accross the home rather than in a quick-access safe or shotgun lock starts to look pretty bleak.

 

[Skylane81E]

It's a calculated risk, just like single engine IFR. We have no kids, so that is one less concern, and as to arming the BG, the guns "around" are not were they will be found before the dog alarm goes off and one of the residents opens fire on the intruder.

 

[Skylane81E]

I just can't imagine living is such fear that I have to answer your door with a gun in hand. I will admit however that if someone is ringing my front doorbell I look out the window to see who it is before I open the door. The problem is in the spring, summer, and early fall, I leave only the screen door shut, and not locked. Until after dark anyway. So I guess I'm living on the edge, but I can't live always afraid that someone is going to get me.

Agreed, and I don't answer the door gun in hand as a rule. Now if the spidy sence tingled then may be. If I'm not expecting a visitor and it's dark, or they went to the back door etc.