Complex Training Materials

[jsstevens]

I'm planning to get my complex endorsement in a couple of weeks. The club instructor says "Do your book study first and it'll save you time and money. Plus I don't like to teach ground school."

The plane available is an early PA-28R-180 Arrow while virtually all of my experience is in C-172s (C and N models). The big differences are clearly: retractable gear, constant speed prop and fuel injection. Also, low wing airplane so I have fuel tank switching and electric boost pump to deal with.

I've got an Owner's Manual for the appropriate year and I've read it from cover to cover multiple times. Now, without passing any judgement on the instructor, what other training materials would be a good idea?

John

 

[Clark1961]

GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS

Oh, and figure out where the little red gear release dealybob is...

There's a little more to it than that but not much. Remember the gear indicator light brightness is controlled by one of the instrument light rheostats.

Know what the prop lever does, know what the throttle does. Not much more.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm planning to get my complex endorsement in a couple of weeks. The club instructor says "Do your book study first and it'll save you time and money. Plus I don't like to teach ground school."

The plane available is an early PA-28R-180 Arrow while virtually all of my experience is in C-172s (C and N models). The big differences are clearly: retractable gear, constant speed prop and fuel injection. Also, low wing airplane so I have fuel tank switching and electric boost pump to deal with.

I've got an Owner's Manual for the appropriate year and I've read it from cover to cover multiple times. Now, without passing any judgement on the instructor, what other training materials would be a good idea?

John

Make sure you understand the emergency gear procedure for that particular airplane. Over the years Piper made subtle differences in the safety features on the gear. Some have overides that work. Some have overides that don't work (owner disabled them). Some have the backup gear extender (separate pitot-tube for the gear only mounted on the left side of the fuselage) and some don't. Know what you are working with.

Also, read the chapter 11 of the AFH - Transition to Complex Airplanes. It will give you a general overview. Really those are the only two references I can think of - POH and the AFH.

 

[TMetzinger]

AFH, and there's good stuff in the Advanced Pilot's Flight Manual too.

Suggest finding a ground instructor or another flight instructor to give you a couple hours of instruction/evaluation on the systems. If you've got a good reason to stick with your instructor (in spite of his comment - I'm trying not to pass any judgement), then another good instructor will respect that and teach you just the ground stuff. My "basic" curriculum is 2-2.5 hours for the complex (where you learn the basics you need to know), and 3-4 hours for the "compleat" version (where we spend more time on systems and failure modes and aeronautical decision making considerations).

Where are you located?

 

[jsstevens]

AFH, and there's good stuff in the Advanced Pilot's Flight Manual too.

Suggest finding a ground instructor or another flight instructor to give you a couple hours of instruction/evaluation on the systems. If you've got a good reason to stick with your instructor (in spite of his comment - I'm trying not to pass any judgement), then another good instructor will respect that and teach you just the ground stuff. My "basic" curriculum is 2-2.5 hours for the complex (where you learn the basics you need to know), and 3-4 hours for the "compleat" version (where we spend more time on systems and failure modes and aeronautical decision making considerations).

Where are you located?

Orlando. I fly out of KORL, but the Arrow is based at X04 (Orlando Apopka). I'll certainly get quizzed to make sure I've learned what I need to know before he's satisfied that I've done my study.

John

 

[steingar]

Get a new instructor.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Since it is an early model -180, I'm going to guess that it does not have the backup gear extender. Just make sure that you are reading the actual POH for that particular model and not some generic Arrow Airplane Information Manual.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Since it is an early model -180, I'm going to guess that it does not have the backup gear extender. Just make sure that you are reading the actual POH for that particular model and not some generic Arrow Airplane Information Manual.

IIRC, all the early model PA28R's had the pitot on the left side of the fuselage for the automatic system.

I put 1200 hours on a '72 PA28R.

 

[Fearless Tower]

IIRC, all the early model PA28R's had the pitot on the left side of the fuselage for the automatic system.

I put 1200 hours on a '72 PA28R.

There are some that don't - I fly a PA28-201 here in SD that does not have the separate pitot tube for the gear, although I could be wrong about the years - I just looked it up and the one I fly that doesn't have it is actually an '89. Based on the condition of the plane and interior, though I would have sworn it was a 70's model.

 

[jsstevens]

IIRC, all the early model PA28R's had the pitot on the left side of the fuselage for the automatic system.

I put 1200 hours on a '72 PA28R.

On this one it's no longer connected.

John

 

[BillTIZ]

There are some that don't - I fly a PA28-201 here in SD that does not have the separate pitot tube for the gear, although I could be wrong about the years - I just looked it up and the one I fly that doesn't have it is actually an '89. Based on the condition of the plane and interior, though I would have sworn it was a 70's model.

If you are flying a PA28R-201, then you are not flying an "early model" that he referred to.

 

[ajstoner21]

The club instructor says "Do your book study first and it'll save you time and money. Plus I don't like to teach ground school."

That is unacceptable. Far Part 61.31(e) says you must log both ground and flight training. Yes, Read ahead of time and learn as much as you can in advance, but don't let him off the hook for ground. I'd verify EVERYTHING you read, as it relates to the aircraft you are flying, at least. Also read the POH.

but, the Airplane Flying Handbook has a good section worth reading on Complex Airplanes.

Chaper 11 (pdf page 9 of 56) is "Transition to Complex Airplanes
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-5of7.pdf

 

[BillTIZ]

Be able to explain how the engine gets air and fuel.
Be able to explain MP and what it means.
Be able to explain how the prop controller works, what is meant by fine pitch or high/low RPM.
Be able to explain what happens if you loose oil pressure to the prop dome.
What is a "runaway prop".

It's all in the manuals described above. If you read ahead, then the instructor does not spend your ground school dollars teaching it. But he should provide a good review to make sure you can understand it and get you through some tough areas.

Be just as through with the gear system.

 

[Skylane81E]

GUMPS! I'm fixing a lack of that on an arrow now.

Be sure to check and see if the auto extend even works. There is a service bulletin for disableling it.

Tricks I've learned on arrows
1 if the gear doesn't lock down even after using the emergency extend hold the emergency extend and "shake" the plane, it just might help (ask me how I know)

2 check the cowling latches (once again )

 

[JesseD]

When he says he doesn't like to teach ground school I'm going to guess he means you sitting on your butt with him reading. Every instructor I talked to doesn't like that, but they will go over a lesson with you and double-check your knowledge AND fill in a lot of blanks. He just doesn't want you to waste your time "reading" a chapter on the dime. Basically it's like homework. Do it upfront and you'll understand the lesson. Don't and you waste a lot of time.

At least that's what I hope

 

[TMetzinger]

At least that's what I hope

Me too, especially on this topic, which is 95% knowledge and 5% "flying". An airplane is an expensive and fairly crappy learning environment.

I can get 95% of what I have to see as far as giving the complex endorsement without starting the engine. There'll be some crawling around underneath the airplane and opening up or removing the cowl, all of which burns instructor dollars but doesn't burn airplane rental dollars. Then when I feel the student's mastered the concepts, we go up, do a climb/cruise/descent exercise in power management, run through the gear extend/retract/emergency procedures, and we're done. We'll probably do one or two simulated engine failures so the student understands that most of these airplanes are rocks with wings when the power fails, and the difference in glide between fine and coarse pitch.

That's for the complex endorsement - which is different than saying "OK go solo the Arrow". That could take extra flight time. I got my complex endorsement with 1.2 hours of complex time, but needed another 3.8 before I met the insurance requirements to take that airplane solo.

 

[Skylane81E]

Tim, that sounds like my complex training. (PA28R200) I was endorsed after about half an hour of flying (already flying behind a cs prop) as "GUMPS you idiot!" didn't take long. I needed five hours before I could rent it solo but I was doing maintenance flights in it before that as the insurance policy was different.

 

[jsstevens]

When he says he doesn't like to teach ground school I'm going to guess he means you sitting on your butt with him reading. Every instructor I talked to doesn't like that, but they will go over a lesson with you and double-check your knowledge AND fill in a lot of blanks. He just doesn't want you to waste your time "reading" a chapter on the dime. Basically it's like homework. Do it upfront and you'll understand the lesson. Don't and you waste a lot of time.

At least that's what I hope

That is indeed what I have done with this instructor in the past. Like I said, "without judging the instructor".

John

 

[Fearless Tower]

If you are flying a PA28R-201, then you are not flying an "early model" that he referred to.

If you'll notice in the excerpt you quoted, I corrected myself - it was an '89. It just LOOKED like it was older than dirt.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've got an Owner's Manual for the appropriate year and I've read it from cover to cover multiple times. Now, without passing any judgement on the instructor, what other training materials would be a good idea?

Google "Manifold Pressure Sucks" - A *great* John Deakin article that explains things a lot better than the FAA materials. I think there's a link in it to "Those Marvelous Props" or something like that. Read those - That's just stuff for the C/S prop.

For putting the gear down, of course, it's...

GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS - GUMPS

which, of course, stands for

Gear down
Undercarriage down
Make sure the gear is down
Put the gear down,
Stupid!

Oh, and figure out where the little red gear release dealybob is...

Right near the trim wheel on the Arrows.

There's a little more to it than that but not much. Remember the gear indicator light brightness is controlled by one of the instrument light rheostats.

Nav lights. A standard trick for CFI's to use on Arrow checkouts - During the day, if you turn the nav lights on the gear lights are practically invisible. So, turn those back off when you don't get the three greens.

Since it is an early model -180, I'm going to guess that it does not have the backup gear extender.

Actually - I've hit for the cycle on Arrows (I've flown the I, II, III, and IV) and the only two that had the auto-extend still enabled were the I and the IV (and the I was a 1967, the first year the Arrow was made). The one on the I was really annoying because there was no detent for the auto-extend disable - You had to hold it up or the gear would drop down. Ugh.

On this one it's no longer connected.

Good. I never could stand that auto-extend. I really don't like the airplane doing things I didn't tell it to do.

 

[Skylane81E]

Good. I never could stand that auto-extend. I really don't like the airplane doing things I didn't tell it to do.

Royal PITA to keep working too.

 

[Artiom]

Google "Manifold Pressure Sucks" - A *great* John Deakin article that explains things a lot better than the FAA materials. I think there's a link in it to "Those Marvelous Props" or something like that. Read those - That's just stuff for the C/S prop.

Thanks for suggestion. That the really good article. I've been looking for something like this for couple days already. Chapter 11 of Airplane Flying Handbook lucks details and just gives "big" picture.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Thanks for suggestion. That the really good article. I've been looking for something like this for couple days already. Chapter 11 of Airplane Flying Handbook lucks details and just gives "big" picture.

They also don't give any "how does it really work" type of info. And I don't mean "there's oil pressure and springs and blah blah blah." I really like those Deakin articles, that's what gave me the "a-ha!" moment to put all of the pieces together in my head. The FAA stuff is annoyingly incomplete.

 

[jesse]

I can get 95% of what I have to see as far as giving the complex endorsement without starting the engine.

It's easy to talk about the theory on the ground but people tend to forget about that in the air. In the end I need to see them fly it properly in the air before I sign off on the endorsement..and that surely will take more than 5% of the teaching effort

Often the complex and high performance go together and then I intentionally try and place them in profiles that will demonstrate the ways to get yourself into trouble with more power than you're used. For example you can pull power to idle and have them trim for best glide and start getting setup for a landing. Then you can have them go to full power and suddenly they get a workout with all the yoke force required to avoid a stall. Too many people die from go-around stalls because nobody ever stressed the forces that they may face. Tons of different ways to get them into high angle of attack high power setting profiles that'll require a ton more rudder then they're used to. I like to have them flying with a high AoA and high power setting in a left turn. Suddenly they find themselves needing right rudder in a left turn. Until you show them that it's possible they won't usually stay coordinated.

The downside is that some of the training I want to cover in a high performance airplane may not coincide with completely babying the engine like the owner wants. At the end of the day though, an engine is cheaper than their life, and going from idle to full power or full power to idle a few times isn't going to hurt it and may save their life someday.

Lots of things to stress related to go arounds and botched landing recovery for both HP and complex.

I try and base the training around the areas where people get themselves in trouble moreso than just flying around the pattern a few times and making sure they remember GUMPS and don't forget about the prop.

 

[Artiom]

They also don't give any "how does it really work" type of info. And I don't mean "there's oil pressure and springs and blah blah blah." I really like those Deakin articles, that's what gave me the "a-ha!" moment to put all of the pieces together in my head. The FAA stuff is annoyingly incomplete.

Exactly! I have to know what happens behind the scene, otherwise it doesn't make any sense to me. Do you have pointers to something like that for retractible gear? If so I would nominate those two things for sticky
I believe everyone who is looking to transition to complex airplane (or transitioned but wants refresh on details) will appreciate that.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Exactly! I have to know what happens behind the scene, otherwise it doesn't make any sense to me. Do you have pointers to something like that for retractible gear? If so I would nominate those two things for sticky
I believe everyone who is looking to transition to complex airplane (or transitioned but wants refresh on details) will appreciate that.

Well, with retractable gear, "it depends." They're all different. Some are purely hydraulic (Apache/Aztec for example) with a hydraulic pump on one or both engines. Some are electro-hydraulic (many, actually - C182RG, Arrow, and a TON of others) where there's an electric hydraulic pump. Some are purely electric (Comanche) with motors and linkages, and some are purely manual (old Mooneys).

So, in this case, the POH is probably the best bet, though a bunch of them suck. You might get more info if you can find the aircraft maintenance manual, or just poke your head in next time the plane's in annual and get them to show you how it works.

 

[Fearless Tower]

It's easy to talk about the theory on the ground but people tend to forget about that in the air. In the end I need to see them fly it properly in the air before I sign off on the endorsement..and that surely will take more than 5% of the teaching effort

Exactly - someone can recite all they want from the book, but the real test is will they actually remember to push the prop forward before increasing the power when they are in the actual plane. For a person used to fixed pitch props, it is not a natural instinct.

 

[TMetzinger]

It's easy to talk about the theory on the ground but people tend to forget about that in the air. In the end I need to see them fly it properly in the air before I sign off on the endorsement..and that surely will take more than 5% of the teaching effort

I said "without starting the engine"... I didn't say "without getting in the airplane". There's an awful lot of practice and touch drills that can be done while the airplane is still tied town.

In a transition to an airplane that is both complex AND HP, that's a different story, and I expect a lot more airwork out for a HP transition because the airplane IS more than they're used to.

 

[Doggtyred]

IIRC, all the early model PA28R's had the pitot on the left side of the fuselage for the automatic system.

I put 1200 hours on a '72 PA28R.

And quite a few had it removed after a few arrows with engine outs had unplanned gear extension when they slowed below the trigger airspeed, causing the plane to land even shorter.

The one I flew had it.

Biggest thing I had hammered home was remembering what power settings gave what performance (ballpark). I was in the 200 hp version.

High cruise was 24"/2400. Low was something like 24"/2100.

21"/2100 gave a good 90 KTS and dropping the gear in that condition was good for a glideslope descent with minimal trim changes at 90kts.

 

[Fearless Tower]

And quite a few had it removed after a few arrows with engine outs had unplanned gear extension when they slowed below the trigger airspeed, causing the plane to land even shorter.

That there is a good reason to get rid of it - an Arrow with the gear hanging out and no power drops like a freakin' rock.

 

[jdwatson]

I always loved John Deakin's column on AvWeb. Here's a link to the index of his column there call Pelican's Perch.

 

[jdwatson]

Jesse, except in the truly most difficult situations would I go from idle to full power in a complex & HP plane. I changed my "go-around" procedures when I started to fly T206H for that reason. Full throttle in the 206 is a lot of power to manage, add low speeds, high AOA and low altitude at landing there is not a lot of room for error. I also stopped using full flaps on normal approaches at that time as well.

It doesn't take much throttle to arrest the descent in a HP plane, so the beginning of a balked landing should not be a reflexive full-throttle response. In the T206H, adding 1/2" to 3/4" was all it took to stop the descent and return to level flight. Smoothly add a bit more throttle, clean up the 10 degrees of flap to start the climb. A little more throttle and off we go. Nothing gets upset, pilot, plane, pax and insurance companies.

For those who haven't had the pleasure of flying the T206H, it's turbocharged. It's real easy to over-boost the engine by slamming the throttle forward. Compared to the 172 that was flying at the time, the acceleration of the 206 was like a Porsche 911 vs SmartCar. The 206 taught me how to fly elegantly & efficiently. How I miss that plane.

I do think it's a great idea for a student to experience the consequences of using "trainer" habits in a complex/HP aircraft. My first power-on stall was setup in a similar manner as you posted, except we never went to full throttle. 2/3rds of the way there was enough to be what felt like vertical.

 

[xaminmo]

For me, going from Cessna to Piper was a bigger change the difference in fixed vs variable prop.

The main thing with the gear is to carry a nice, low level, constant fear that you might have forgotten to lower the gear on final or raise the gear once clear of rway. It's better to recheck your gear lights (and gear mirror if you've got one) a couple of extra times than to miss it once.

(Gee, why does taxi take full power and make so much noise?)

 

[denverpilot]

I always loved John Deakin's column on AvWeb. Here's a link to the index of his column there call Pelican's Perch.

It's really too bad they got rid of all their good article writers a few years ago.

I'd have paid good money to keep reading articles that original gang wrote. Deakin, Kevin Garrison, Don Brown, many others...

Great stuff for years then something happened...

 

[jasc15]

which, of course, stands for

Gear down
Undercarriage down
Make sure the gear is down
Put the gear down,
Stupid!

I've been cracking up from this for a good 10 minutes.

Ever since this thread, I've read a whole bunch of John Deakin articles. They are fantastic, and go way beyond the lame 3 sentence descriptions in various text books i've read. Searching for discussion of him on this forum, I was upset to find out he had a stroke a few years back.