Complex / HP endorsements - Recommendations?

luvflyin said:
Plus One Flyers in San Diego. Great vacation place. They have the airplanes to do what you want to do. Downside is you'd have to join for a month but it's not that much. plusoneflyers.org. Click About and then Instructor Members. Make some contacts and tell them what you want to do. San Diego ain't cheap and neither are the CFI's, but if your "vacation piggy bank" can take it, give it a try
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If it's vacation flight training type thing, go get your high performance + complex in a seaplane with a CS prop and over 200HP, WAY more fun than any arrow or 182RG.

Seattle Seaplanes has a hopped up 172 with a CS prop (and I believe over 200ho) which would do the trick, all else fails I KNOW kenmore has a few.

Also WA is far superior to CA, lots more freedoms and way better people.


http://www.seattleseaplanes.com/training.php

http://www.kenmoreairharbor.com/flight-instruction.html
 
James331 said:
If it's vacation flight training type thing, go get your high performance + complex in a seaplane with a CS prop and over 200HP, WAY more fun than any arrow or 182RG.

Seattle Seaplanes has a hopped up 172 with a CS prop (and I believe over 200ho) which would do the trick, all else fails I KNOW kenmore has a few.

Also WA is far superior to CA, lots more freedoms and way better people.


http://www.seattleseaplanes.com/training.php

http://www.kenmoreairharbor.com/flight-instruction.html
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The 172 is 180hp according to their website. What about the retractable requirement for complex?
 
luvflyin said:
The 172 is 180hp according to their website. What about the retractable requirement for complex?
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Not needed for seaplanes CS prop and flaps only

"A complex airplane for the airplane single-engine sea or airplane multiengine sea rating is one having flaps, floats, and a controllable propeller. A controllable propeller may be controlled manually by the pilot or automatically controlled by a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system."

Well kenmore I know for a fact has a few which qualify, for both the complex and high performance, think you'd have to call, but they have the cubs, skywagons and of course the DHs
 
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James331 said:
Not needed for seaplanes CS prop and flaps only

"A complex airplane for the airplane single-engine sea or airplane multiengine sea rating is one having flaps, floats, and a controllable propeller. A controllable propeller may be controlled manually by the pilot or automatically controlled by a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system."

Well kenmore I know for a fact has a few which qualify.
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Makes sense. Sounds like using that endorsement to meet some complex requirement for land would be a no go though.
 
luvflyin said:
Makes sense. Sounds like using that endorsement to meet some complex requirement for land would be a no go though.
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Not really.

My initial HP and Complex were in a seaplane, a few CFIs, DPEs, ASI, company check airman, well..

YKAIQ1T.gif
 
James331 said:
Bah, fly a fast downwind (cruise speed or better), decel turn downwind to final, vle, vfe, roll out into a slip as you are dropping the last bit of flaps, cross the fence at vref, straighten her out a foot off the deck and touchdown as smooth as a baby's butt, make the first taxiway.
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My plane won't do that . . . I've entered the pattern near cruise speed, full prop, fingers crossed waiting for flap speed, dropped them p, dropped gear, extended downwind waiting for speed to drop below 100, began descent (and airspeed quit dropping), turned base, cranked in more flaps, throttle to idle, turned mile-plus final at idle, added full flaps and hit the pavement >> 1000' from the numbers--thankfully not at my home field or I'd have gone off the other end.
 
denverpilot said:
You don't have to fly it that fast in the pattern. Just remove power at the top of the climb to pattern altitude instead of waiting until time to descend, and it won't accelerate in the downwind.

. . Power-on? Well, put it wherever you want it but nail the airspeed and keep it slow-ish and it'll fly along with all that drag. You're just "dragging it in". That's the "airliner style" approach in a 182RG. Have to memorize the MP number that'll give you the airspeed and descent rate you want and just set it there at first and see what you get. If you chase it, airspeed be all over the place.
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When I'm doing pattern work, I generally reduce throttle on the crosswind leg to keep from blowing through pattern altitude. No sense in speed up way above pattern speed, either--I'll often add flaps as I turn onto downwind to keep speed where I want it.

Power on landings are just like you say. Pick an MP / RPM combo that will give you the correct speed. For me, it's ~16" / 2300 to come up 90-95 mph. That's a long way to pull the throttle on the crosswind leg . . . But i still don't like to drag it in in the prop, cause where are you if there's a burble in the power? There's a difference between "power on" where the throttle doesn't reach idle until you know you can glide in and "hanging on the prop," it's a matter of degree.
 
Hank S said:
My plane won't do that . . . I've entered the pattern near cruise speed, full prop, fingers crossed waiting for flap speed, dropped them p, dropped gear, extended downwind waiting for speed to drop below 100, began descent (and airspeed quit dropping), turned base, cranked in more flaps, throttle to idle, turned mile-plus final at idle, added full flaps and hit the pavement >> 1000' from the numbers--thankfully not at my home field or I'd have gone off the other end.
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Sure it will, get about 45 degrees from the threshold, power out, cruise speed, roll into a >60 degree turn, back elevator, you'll drop speed quite fast.
 
James331 said:
Sure it will, get about 45 degrees from the threshold, power out, cruise speed, roll into a >60 degree turn, back elevator, you'll drop speed quite fast.
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I'm sure you will, and if you pull that elevator back hard and fast enough, you can make a really neat crater on the ground. Are you by chance an instructor?
 
Brad Z said:
I'm sure you will, and if you pull that elevator back hard and fast enough, you can make a really neat crater on the ground. Are you by chance an instructor?
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It's not 1s and 0s, there's a difference between making an accelerated low level stall, and burning a little energy to get down to vle/vfe

And I am
 
James331 said:
It's not 1s and 0s, there's a difference between making an accelerated low level stall, and burning a little energy to get down to vle/vfe

And I am
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So you would teach a new 182 pilot to exceed a bank of 60 degrees in the pattern in order to bleed of airspeed? Let's assume the aircraft IS NOT on fire.
 
Wow, this thread is getting really good. Planning to do another flight in the 182 tomorrow. I have been couch flying and I now have a cheat sheet with a few MP/RPM combinations for each phase of flight. I already know them by heart but can't hurt to have them nearby. I'm also planning on slowing down in the pattern as some of you have suggested. No reason to hurry. The POH states when doing multiple touch and go's (or stop and go's) you should leave the gear down. Not sure if my instructor will let me as I'm sure he is trying to instill the habit of raising the gear, lowering the gear, and confirming the gear. The POH also said get the gear down before entering the traffic pattern if coming in from somewhere else. It can help ease the burden in the traffic pattern by having the gear down and confirmed before downwind. I love flying this thing, I just wish it wasn't so darn expensive ($225/hr with instructor).
 
Brad Z said:
So you would teach a new 182 pilot to exceed a bank of 60 degrees in the pattern in order to bleed of airspeed? Let's assume the aircraft IS NOT on fire.
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Define new.

If the guy has the chops for it, sure.

If he's a dodo bird, nope.
 
James331 said:
Define new.

If the guy has the chops for it, sure.

If he's a dodo bird, nope.
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Aren't we talking about a complex/high-performance endorsement...i.e. Someone who presumably has not acted as PIC of a complex/high-performance aircraft?
 
Brad Z said:
Aren't we talking about a complex/high-performance endorsement...i.e. Someone who presumably has not acted as PIC of a complex/high-performance aircraft?
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Yep. Some of us got our Endorsements early on, at maybe 80-85 hours.
 
Id think most folks at >85tt could handle a decel turn :dunno:
 
What are you going to fly? If no complex aircraft are in your plans, it's a "nice to have", nothing more. Same with the high performance endorsement.

I got my complex in a 1969 Arrow. The HP in a 182. I flew the Arrow a bit until the club sold it. No problem, I didn't like the fact that for me 3 hours was my limit, by that time my knees were gone and it was all I could do to crawl out of the plane. I still fly our 182 as it is a very comfortable cross country cruising machine (and we just updated the panel to include some of the latest toys from Garmin). So the HP endorsement is useful. Heck, a 182 is simply a big 172 with cowl flaps and a prop control. So the HP endorsement isn't really a bit deal.

Have fun. That's the key idea.
 
James331 said:
Id think most folks at >85tt could handle a decel turn :dunno:
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I'd be extremely worried if they couldn't.

There is nothing complex or high performance about 90% of the complex/high performance training fleet. I am absolutely in no way a "natural stick" or have the "gift of God" and each of these endorsements took me a couple of hours. If I can do it anyone can. 1st lesson, intro and behind the plane the whole time, go home study butt off and chair fly like crazy, 2nd lesson go fly, 3rd lesson emergency procedures specific to that aircraft and done.
 
jaybee said:
I'd be extremely worried if they couldn't.

There is nothing complex or high performance about 90% of the complex/high performance training fleet. I am absolutely in no way a "natural stick" or have the "gift of God" and each of these endorsements took me a couple of hours. If I can do it anyone can. 1st lesson, intro and behind the plane the whole time, go home study butt off and chair fly like crazy, 2nd lesson go fly, 3rd lesson emergency procedures specific to that aircraft and done.
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I agree. In post #48, James331 was suggesting that an acceptable way to loose speed in the pattern was to "roll into a >60 degree turn, back elevator". Not exactly a smart thing to do in the pattern.
 
armycopter said:
I started my HP/Complex endorsement this week. Did about an hour on the ground with the instructor in the airplane and then (so far) 1.6 in the air. It's in a 182RG. It was a humbling experience and I will gladly pay for a couple of more hours with the CFI. My problem was mostly just the 40 degree landing. I think I did the worst landing in my entire fixed wing career (70 hours). Not an unsafe landing but definitely not pleasant. The Manifold pressure, cowl flaps, (and for me, carb heat which I have not used since I trained in a 172SP) were not too bad and I think I'll have that stuff nailed pretty quick. Rates where I am are $175/hr wet for the 182RG. It's a fast aircraft as well. Traffic pattern stuff happens pretty quick and you need to really be ahead of the plane mentally. GUMPS is your friend.
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What is a 40 degree landing?
 
Brad Z said:
I'm assuming 40° of flaps.
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I'm trying to visualize a 40 degree bank landing. Would be very loud and messy with most planes. Unless they have the Long Ass Gear modification.
 
rolivi said:
I'm trying to visualize a 40 degree bank landing. Would be very loud and messy with most planes. Unless they have the Long Ass Gear modification.
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That would be one hell of crosswind and an aircraft with some serious rudder authority.
 
The Huge Ass Rudder and the Long Ass Gear get installed in the same STC? Yeah, that's the ticket.
 
rolivi said:
I'm trying to visualize a 40 degree bank landing. Would be very loud and messy with most planes. Unless they have the Long Ass Gear modification.
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Or a 40 degree glide slope landing, probably need a helicopter for that one.
 
Well finished up my complex/HP endorsements today. Felt good flying the 182RG and had a lot more control in the pattern. Kept it around 100 KIAS downwind and everything went well. Short fields, emergency landings, normal, crosswind, etc. Loved every minute.
 
James331 said:
Id think most folks at >85tt could handle a decel turn :dunno:
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Easy as pie in a Cessna. My plane doesn't decelerate well, especially with flaps and gear up. As a newbie, I gave her 3 miles; now I still like to be at flap speed entering downwind, or I'll need a really long downwind to finish slowing to gear speed.

It all depends on what you fly. I've overflown my destination (hiding behind a ridge) almost 1000' above TPA at cruise, pulled throttle, made a right 270° and entered the pattern. In a Cessna. Since then, ATC has held me 3000' above my TPA until within 4 nm of my destination, and I flew a few miles away and did two 360° turns to descend then had 3-4 nm to slow down as I headed back for the pattern.

Some planes are draggy and slow down easily; some are slick, and will "go down or slow down, but not both." Draggy complex planes are easier than slick ones.
 
armycopter said:
Well finished up my complex/HP endorsements today. Felt good flying the 182RG and had a lot more control in the pattern. Kept it around 100 KIAS downwind and everything went well. Short fields, emergency landings, normal, crosswind, etc. Loved every minute.
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Glad you had fun. While you were out flying these guys were here arguing about what you should do. LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
Glad you had fun. While you were out flying these guys were here arguing about what you should do. LOL.
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PoA to the rescue! :)

FWIW (late to the party), I did my complex and high-perf endorsements when I bought a complex and high-perf airplane. The seller is a CFI(I) MEI ATP OMG LOL BBQ. :)
I agree that getting the endorsements "just because" can be pointless unless one really plans to fly such airplanes.
 
Hank S said:
Easy as pie in a Cessna. My plane doesn't decelerate well, especially with flaps and gear up. As a newbie, I gave her 3 miles; now I still like to be at flap speed entering downwind, or I'll need a really long downwind to finish slowing to gear speed.

It all depends on what you fly. I've overflown my destination (hiding behind a ridge) almost 1000' above TPA at cruise, pulled throttle, made a right 270° and entered the pattern. In a Cessna. Since then, ATC has held me 3000' above my TPA until within 4 nm of my destination, and I flew a few miles away and did two 360° turns to descend then had 3-4 nm to slow down as I headed back for the pattern.

Some planes are draggy and slow down easily; some are slick, and will "go down or slow down, but not both." Draggy complex planes are easier than slick ones.
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Yes, but James331 advocates doing them with a bank of greater than 60°, while pulling back on the yoke. Is that how you decelerate in the pattern in a Cessna?
 
I got the endorsement so I can fly myself to visit customers. I want to be able to get there and back a little quicker and possibly carry an employee or two. Not in a commercial pilot sense, just as a guy who wants to fly to another airport (on my own dime) and make customer calls.
 
Brad Z said:
Yes, but James331 advocates doing them with a bank of greater than 60°, while pulling back on the yoke. Is that how you decelerate in the pattern in a Cessna?
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That's not how I decelerate in any plane! Or show off, fly for fun, get an adrenaline surge, or any other reason. Can't think of a reason to do so not involving another plane wanting to be where I am . . .
 
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