Complex Endorsement(Mooney M20J)

Lance F said:
Hi Eric, where are you based? I've got an M20J at Covington KCVC and have a lot of real world time in this type. Come on down, and I'd be happy to do some coaching. This Saturday is our EAA pancake breakfast. Always a good time to get together and talk Mooneys.
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Lance, thanks for the offer! I will do that... I wish I could get to the breakfast Saturday but, I already have plans. I will hit you up in the near future though!

Eric
 
If that Skymaster is yours, Kirk, I too eyeball that thing when I'm over there. Those are the coolest twins ever. Loved them since I was a kid! :)
 
You will be just fine! I think you'll eventually want a mooney. It's a shame more people don't get their ppl in a taildragger. It makes the transition into a mooney, bonanza, etc. A piece of cake. It really does. I went from a champ to a mooney in 2 hours.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You will be just fine! I think you'll eventually want a mooney. It's a shame more people don't get their ppl in a taildragger. It makes the transition into a mooney, bonanza, etc. A piece of cake. It really does. I went from a champ to a mooney in 2 hours.
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And Eric if you do decide you want a mooney, I'd be up for a partnership! I already want one and have not even sat in one yet! I do constantly drool over them on TAP, controller, barnstormers.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I need Mooney time for insurance. I'm based at LZU. Could I possibly take you up on the offer?
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I'm sure we can work something out. Send me a PM with what you need to do.
 
Somedudeintn said:
And Eric if you do decide you want a mooney, I'd be up for a partnership! I already want one and have not even sat in one yet! I do constantly drool over them on TAP, controller, barnstormers.
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Come on down to KCVC. We can do more than sit in one. :yes:
 
wilzup said:
Just threw my video if anyone is interested. Gonna try it again Friday. Hopefully with better results!
https://youtu.be/3SGEusW7c-Q
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Didn't watch the whole thing but I wasn't a real big fan of that instructor. I find the best way to land a Mooney is to keep the power in while on speed, get into ground effect, and walk the power out while slowly increasing the pitch to compensate for power loss. Greaser.
 
Why do they paint the panel black? Use light rudder pressure on IFR approaches or it turns into a drunken rodeo slolam event!
 
DEFENDER 7 said:
Why do they paint the panel black? Use light rudder pressure on IFR approaches or it turns into a drunken rodeo slolam event!
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Modern Mooney panels are light colored. They are black probably for the reason kitchens were avocado in the 70s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Somedudeintn said:
And Eric if you do decide you want a mooney, I'd be up for a partnership! I already want one and have not even sat in one yet! I do constantly drool over them on TAP, controller, barnstormers.
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I have serious lust for Mooneys too, and would love to partner into one. At this point, however, I'm still a student pilot with low time -- but I'm working on that! :D

I live pretty close to LZU (over by Sugarloaf Mills).
 
ettsn said:
I have serious lust for Mooneys too, and would love to partner into one. At this point, however, I'm still a student pilot with low time -- but I'm working on that! :D

I live pretty close to LZU (over by Sugarloaf Mills).
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Keep working! I bought my Mooney six weeks after my PPL check ride.

Don't get distracted now. You will need the PPL to enjoy a Mooney.
 
Holy Smokes Eric. I watched some of your video. It was tough to hear the instruction because of the blaring radio. (And maybe because the instruction wasn't there.) A couple things jump to mind though. Two comments at the end I have to call TOTAL BS on. I heard "It's not an easy plane to fly" and " Have to manhandle this plane." Nothing could be farther from the truth. This is a Mooney qualified CFI saying these things???????

During your preflight briefing how much time was spent talking about the numbers? This is an easy plane to fly and does not need manhandling if you fly it by the numbers. If you've got the plane at the right airspeed and correct power setting for where you are and what you want to do for the given configuration you are in, it's easy.

Know the numbers. Keep the plane trimmed to eliminate pitch forces. Enjoy the ride. It really is that simple.
 
Lance F said:
Holy Smokes Eric. I watched some of your video. It was tough to hear the instruction because of the blaring radio. (And maybe because the instruction wasn't there.) A couple things jump to mind though. Two comments at the end I have to call TOTAL BS on. I heard "It's not an easy plane to fly" and " Have to manhandle this plane." Nothing could be farther from the truth. This is a Mooney qualified CFI saying these things???????

During your preflight briefing how much time was spent talking about the numbers? This is an easy plane to fly and does not need manhandling if you fly it by the numbers. If you've got the plane at the right airspeed and correct power setting for where you are and what you want to do for the given configuration you are in, it's easy.

Know the numbers. Keep the plane trimmed to eliminate pitch forces. Enjoy the ride. It really is that simple.
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Speaking of numbers I found a poh and the curious engineer inside of me started running numbers. I should state that a few assumptions were made.


M20j
Empty ~1670lbs
2 people + 396lbs = 2066lbs. (Conservatively high wt estimate :wink2:)
+ 64 gal + 384lbs = 2450lbs


Method 1 - approach speeds in landing distance table
2300 lbs - 70 Kias approach speed
2600 lbs - 74 Kias approach speed
2450 lbs would be 72 Kias approach speed

Method 2 (1.2vso and 1.3vso)
Poh stall speeds 0 bank - gear down full flaps
2300 lbs - 51 Kias
2500 lbs - 53 Kias

Let's just call it 53 since we are close to 2500lb at 2450lb
1.2*53= 64 Kias
1.3*53= 69 Kias

Neglecting small differences between Kias and Kcas on the 20j

So with full fuel (less a few gallons) and two faa standard adults with some change in there pockets I see a max approach speed about 70kts.

Seems like the best method would be to do a stall to determine the actual stall speed at actual wt and landing configuration.

Be sure to update us with how things go on the next lesson.

Anyone please correct any errors I have made!
 
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I think someone up-thread was saying 65-70 knot approach speeds were ideal? In the video, I heard 90 knot readouts from the CFI while on final. It's possible that most of the issues were the typical energy management stuff. I can't recall hearing the CFI in the video give any direction on proper approach speed.

Disclaimer: zero experience in a Mooney
 
asechrest said:
I think someone up-thread was saying 65-70 knot approach speeds were ideal? In the video, I heard 90 knot readouts from the CFI while on final. It's possible that most of the issues were the typical energy management stuff. I can't recall hearing the CFI in the video give any direction on proper approach speed.

Disclaimer: zero experience in a Mooney
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Yea that seems right... 65-70 would be right about what I calculated as 1.2vso - 1.3vso. And in a very clean airplane I would imagine any excess speed only makes things more difficult.

My completely unqualified (not a cfi, and no money experience) opinion would be to try to fly a wider than normal pattern, extend the downwind to give a longer final. Watch for nose drop/speed gain in the turns. And fly final at 65-70kts.

Now I need to take a flight in the mooney and really give everyone on POA something to talk about! I think you did a great job for your first flight in the 20j.
 
Keep in mind an approach is a multi step process. 90kts downwind is fine in many circumstances. Start getting the plane configured (this should be a main point in transition to complex; where and when you drop the gear and flaps shouldn't be random events). 80 kts isn't bad on base. As you turn to final get the full flaps down and slow to about 70. Short final/over the fence 65kts works. Pull the power back all the way over the numbers, start to flare, trim-trim-trim, flare some more. It'll settle quite nicely and you'll make the first turn off with little braking. To get those speeds you should know what the power settings are. Adjust as necessary for winds, traffic, weight, etc.
 
Lance F said:
Keep in mind an approach is a multi step process. 90kts downwind is fine in many circumstances. Start getting the plane configured (this should be a main point in transition to complex; where and when you drop the gear and flaps shouldn't be random events). 80 kts isn't bad on base. As you turn to final get the full flaps down and slow to about 70. Short final/over the fence 65kts works. Pull the power back all the way over the numbers, start to flare, trim-trim-trim, flare some more. It'll settle quite nicely and you'll make the first turn off with little braking. To get those speeds you should know what the power settings are. Adjust as necessary for winds, traffic, weight, etc.
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The 90 knot callout from the CFI was on final. There was also one landing where power was still in during ground effect. That's why I surmise that the entirety of the issue is energy management. Which is not to say I'd do any better. I'd probably do markedly worse as a low-time VFR dude boring holes in the sky.

[EDIT] - By the way, I think it's interesting to hear you describe what is basically a typical approach for the ubiquitous trainers. Which I think supports your point that the Mooney is just another airplane, ready to help you land smoothly as long as your energy management is good.
 
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He said 90, he didn't say knots. The ASI in my mooney is in MPH not knots, and I usually fly final at 90MPH, short final at 80 and the rest by feel. I'm not sure when they switched to KIAS, but I wouldn't be surprised if this Mooney (and the instructor) are reading in MPH, in which case 90 is a pretty decent number.

The speeds for the Mooney in the pattern are very close to a Cherokee or 172, the big difference is how much work it is to maintain those speeds. You can go full flaps on a 172 and aim it at the ground and stay around 70KIAS, the Mooney starts hitting the edge of the white arc if you even think about trying to push the nose lower than normal. You have to plan out your approach a bit ahead of time, and if you're high it's hard to get down without picking up speed. If you try to land with that extra speed bad things happen. The Mooney floats a lot more than a Cherokee and a LOT LOT more than a 172. If you try to put it on the ground before it wants to you will porpoise and if you continue attempting to land you'll probably buy a prop. Come in on speed and it'll touch down like a dream, but any extra speed makes things ugly.

Without being able to see the ASI in that video on landing I'd say you actually did fairly well. You held it in ground effect pretty well on a couple, and the one that bounced you went around right away. Only thing I noticed is how long you left the flaps down on the go-arounds. I was always taught to retract the first notch right away, then milk them off as speed builds. With the hydraulic flaps in my mooney there is no first notch, so it's more by feel, but even so I'm usually at zero flaps about 10 seconds before you raised them at all, and by eyeball (which is difficult to gauge by video) I'm probably 300' higher off the ground at that point too.
 
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I use MPH, it's on the outside and is larger, easier to see than inside knot dial, 100-90-80 for downwind, base, final...where things get difficult is when you are not in a normal pattern, like "make direct for the numbers", and this is most likely place for a gear up, your out of normal routine. If I'm not at 80 by the threshold, then I'm already preping for a go around
 
Lance F said:
Holy Smokes Eric. I watched some of your video. It was tough to hear the instruction because of the blaring radio. (And maybe because the instruction wasn't there.) A couple things jump to mind though. Two comments at the end I have to call TOTAL BS on. I heard "It's not an easy plane to fly" and " Have to manhandle this plane." Nothing could be farther from the truth. This is a Mooney qualified CFI saying these things???????

During your preflight briefing how much time was spent talking about the numbers? This is an easy plane to fly and does not need manhandling if you fly it by the numbers. If you've got the plane at the right airspeed and correct power setting for where you are and what you want to do for the given configuration you are in, it's easy.

Know the numbers. Keep the plane trimmed to eliminate pitch forces. Enjoy the ride. It really is that simple.
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To the original poster, Lance's comments are spot on. As a long time Mooney owner (25 years) and with a bunch of time in a variety of Mooneys, it is about the numbers. In fact, if I am doing an IPC with an instructor not familiar with Mooneys, I stick a placard on my glare shield in front of them with the "numbers".

The reason some instructors make the "manhandling" comment is because they are probably more familiar with planes with flight control cables as opposed to push-pull rods. Mooney controls are "heavier" but this also makes them more stable. With proper trimming, the flight control pressures are very reasonable.

One additional comment on the last sequence with the go around. I fly out of an airport with primary flight training going on. Knowing that you had a Cessna 152 (BTW -- loved the 152 pilot's comment) in front of you, why wasn't he advising you to drop flaps and slowing down earlier?

Once you get past this transition training, you will appreciate the cross country capability and if IFR rated, the stability of the Mooney. Have fun -- and learn the numbers!
 
Lance F said:
Holy Smokes Eric. I watched some of your video. It was tough to hear the instruction because of the blaring radio. (And maybe because the instruction wasn't there.) A couple things jump to mind though. Two comments at the end I have to call TOTAL BS on. I heard "It's not an easy plane to fly" and " Have to manhandle this plane." Nothing could be farther from the truth. This is a Mooney qualified CFI saying these things???????

During your preflight briefing how much time was spent talking about the numbers? This is an easy plane to fly and does not need manhandling if you fly it by the numbers. If you've got the plane at the right airspeed and correct power setting for where you are and what you want to do for the given configuration you are in, it's easy.

Know the numbers. Keep the plane trimmed to eliminate pitch forces. Enjoy the ride. It really is that simple.
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LOL! Believe me, it is hard for me to watch too! We did spend time review the speeds at each leg of the flight however, with my issues with trimming the plane, I lost all focus on anything else.
 
asechrest said:
The 90 knot callout from the CFI was on final. There was also one landing where power was still in during ground effect. That's why I surmise that the entirety of the issue is energy management. Which is not to say I'd do any better. I'd probably do markedly worse as a low-time VFR dude boring holes in the sky.

[EDIT] - By the way, I think it's interesting to hear you describe what is basically a typical approach for the ubiquitous trainers. Which I think supports your point that the Mooney is just another airplane, ready to help you land smoothly as long as your energy management is good.
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I just watched it and he is saying 90 knots because he's too fast. If you listen you can hear him say "you gotta get this down to at least 80."
 
OK, if he did, that's something. But the better transition instruction would have been something like...'in this phase of the pattern a power setting of 16" will give you the desired speed of 80kts." IMHO
 
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