Complex Endorsement(Mooney M20J)

[wilzup]

So the flight school I used to get my PPL has a Mooney M20 and has ok'd me to attempt to get checked out in it and get my complex endorsement. I figured since I took to the Archer and was checked out in it in about an hour, the Mooney would not present too many issues. Holy crap! It is a totally different plane than I have ever flown in my short stint. Not so much in that I was constantly behind the plane, which I was and not so much in as it sinks like a rock, which it does. But I felt like it and I were fighting constantly! I don't think I ever got it trimmed properly. Once I got back on the ground and were done for the day, I swore that I would never get back in it but, after a night to cool down and watch some of the video, I am not going to let it get the best of me! Back in the saddle next weekend! Wish me luck!

E

 

[JOhnH]

Keep at it. My wife was similarly overwhelmed when she transitioned from the 172 to the Bonanza. But since the insurance company required 15 hours in-type, that is how we paced the training. She was signed off yesterday and she flew it home. She LOVES it.

 

[EppyGA]

So the flight school I used to get my PPL has a Mooney M20 and has ok'd me to attempt to get checked out in it and get my complex endorsement. I figured since I took to the Archer and was checked out in it in about an hour, the Mooney would not present too many issues. Holy crap! It is a totally different plane than I have ever flown in my short stint. Not so much in that I was constantly behind the plane, which I was and not so much in as it sinks like a rock, which it does. But I felt like it and I were fighting constantly! I don't think I ever got it trimmed properly. Once I got back on the ground and were done for the day, I swore that I would never get back in it but, after a night to cool down and watch some of the video, I am not going to let it get the best of me! Back in the saddle next weekend! Wish me luck!

E

Hmmm.....Advanced Aviation I take it.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

It does have a different feel, but you'll get there.

The Mooney is intolerant of sloppy speed and energy management, but is a sweet, efficient plane once you get the numbers down.

Not sure about the "sinks like a rock" comment. At 12:1 or better, it has one of the best glide ratios of it's GA peers.

Find an instructor who really knows how to fly the plane, and you'll do much better. You can't fly it like a typical GA trainer.

 

[Bill]

I don't think I ever got it trimmed properly.

Most trainers, when you level off, they attain cruise airspeed quickly. So, in a 172, you might level off, set the trim, and you're good to go.

In a Mooney, it's slick, and the airframe will continue to accelerate after leveling off. Sometimes for a good while. And when it accelerates, it will climb. You will have to adjust trim as it accelerates.

Same thing going down, descend at 500fpm, and it's going to start to accelerate, and if you don't adjust trim to suit, you will find it will fight you and try to level off. Keep adjusting.

Back in the saddle next weekend! Wish me luck!

Do that, once you master it, you will like it. You'll get back in a 172 and wonder why the thing is so damned slow. (No offense to 172 owners, Ted would say the same thing of my 201 after getting out of his 310. It's all relative)

 

[Somedudeintn]

So the flight school I used to get my PPL has a Mooney M20 and has ok'd me to attempt to get checked out in it and get my complex endorsement. I figured since I took to the Archer and was checked out in it in about an hour, the Mooney would not present too many issues. Holy crap! It is a totally different plane than I have ever flown in my short stint. Not so much in that I was constantly behind the plane, which I was and not so much in as it sinks like a rock, which it does. But I felt like it and I were fighting constantly! I don't think I ever got it trimmed properly. Once I got back on the ground and were done for the day, I swore that I would never get back in it but, after a night to cool down and watch some of the video, I am not going to let it get the best of me! Back in the saddle next weekend! Wish me luck!

E

Congrats on starting the Complex Endorsement process! Since I'm contemplating the same move in the same plane soon, it's good to hear about your experience (and I'm looking forward to that video too!)

Good luck, I'm sure it will all come together very soon for you!

 

[Marauder]

As a long time Mooney owner, what you are experiencing is the speed difference. Just like a college football player who moves to the pros, the first thing they will tell you is their challenge of adjusting to the speed of the game.

Learn the power settings and corresponding speeds. As for sink rate, not sure where that came from. The Mooney's laminar flow wing does glide well and that is some of the problem with managing the speed.

As was mentioned above, find an instructor who knows Mooneys. The transition is not that hard, but does require you to fly from the front seat, not the rear one.

 

[wilzup]

As a long time Mooney owner, what you are experiencing is the speed difference. Just like a college football player who moves to the pros, the first thing they will tell you is their challenge of adjusting to the speed of the game.

Learn the power settings and corresponding speeds. As for sink rate, not sure where that came from. The Mooney's laminar flow wing does glide well and that is some of the problem with managing the speed.

As was mentioned above, find an instructor who knows Mooneys. The transition is not that hard, but does require you to fly from the front seat, not the rear one.

I am quite sure it is me and my unfamiliarity with the plane. I need alot of work, especially trimming it out. From the time I reduced power when I was abeam the numbers until short final I was constantly trimming to reduce back-pressure on the yolk. It was frustrating as I never felt like I had control of it. I am sure I will get but, my first outing wasn't pretty. As with all my other flights, I 'll be posting the video for future reference.

BTW, my apologies if I offended an Mooney owners! Too many satified owners to be the plane, it's gotta be the frustrated pilot!

E

 

[Marauder]

I am quite sure it is me and my unfamiliarity with the plane. I need alot of work, especially trimming it out. From the time I reduced power when I was abeam the numbers until short final I was constantly trimming to reduce back-pressure on the yolk. It was frustrating as I never felt like I had control of it. I am sure I will get but, my first outing wasn't pretty. As with all my other flights, I 'll be posting the video for future reference.

BTW, my apologies if I offended an Mooney owners! Too many satified owners to be the plane, it's gotta be the frustrated pilot!

E

Like everything else in life, it has a learning curve. One thing that will help is having an instructor who knows Mooneys and that can provide you the numbers to get certain performance from the plane.

In my F model, slowing to 100 KIAS is a 17" 2500 RPM setup. It changes a little based on time of year, but it is close enough to get the speed tuned in. For landing, I go back to 13" and 2400.

The big changes are in the flaps. When you are established on downwind at 100 KIAS, trim it out with 15° of flaps out. Drop the gear and reduce power to land, you will eventually settle in around 80 KIAS. Trim it out again. When you drop final flaps (33°) will get a noticeable nose down pitch. If you don't have electric trim, you will be swinging the trim wheel a bit. You should target 70 KIAS over the fence to prevent floating. If you are too fast, don't drop the nose wheel or you will begin a porpoise. If you let it bounce 3 times, the 4th will be a prop strike.

With that much trim up, if you need to do a go around, be prepared for heavy forward yoke push needed until you can trim it out. All of this is pretty straightforward if you are working with a Mooney knowledgeable instructor.

If you have other questions, come visits the Mooniacs at www.mooneyspace.com. Good group and plenty of Mooney knowledge to share.

 

[StinkBug]

It definitely takes some getting used to. I got checked out on my M20C in a day, but didn't really get used to it for quite a while. Trim is VERY important on these planes, and is a near constant adjustment. Just remember, ANY time you make any kind of change you will need to trim as well. Add power, TRIM. Lower the gear, Trim. Flaps, Trim. Once you get used to going to the trim wheel after every other control movement it gets to be second nature.

I did my primary training in an Archer, and I'll admit I was quite lazy with the trim wheel, as it really wasn't needed a lot. Even when I should have used it the control pressures were pretty light so you dont NEED to trim if you dont mind holding a little pressure. In the Mooney the elevator pressures can get pretty high, so you really need to be on top of it.

What Bill Jennings said about speed is very true as well. Expect that you'll have to make 3 or 4 trim adjustments after leveling off. It's not that you're getting behind the airplane, it's that the plane is continuing to accelerate and will need to be trimmed until you reach your true cruise speed. Same with descents. Mooneys are known for picking up a lot of speed going downhill, and that effects the trim. Even after about 40 hours in mine I ended up having to go around yesterday. I was high from 20 miles out, and tower asked me to maintain forward speed for a gulfstream behind me. Unfortunately that left me too fast to get the gear and flaps out without pulling up and being way too high on final. You'll need to learn how to manage that air speed, and start your descents much earlier. I used to use 3 miles per 1000' in the Archer to get a 500fpm descent, I use 5 miles in the Mooney, more if I keep the power in and speeds up.

It'll take some getting used to, but you'll figure it out.

 

[Bill]

If you don't have electric trim, you will be swinging the trim wheel a bit.

Indeed, you will need to be trimming up almost constantly from abeam the numbers to short final. I find that I am almost full nose up trim on short final, sometimes all the way up.

You should target 70 KIAS over the fence to prevent floating. If you are too fast, don't drop the nose wheel or you will begin a porpoise. If you let it bounce 3 times, the 4th will be a prop strike.

Yeah, 65-70 is a good target, I prefer to be 65kias when I can. And yes, two bounces and then be GONE!

With that much trim up, if you need to do a go around, be prepared for heavy forward yoke push needed until you can trim it out.

Yup, Popeye arms. And, while you're getting the nose down trim in, you will need to get the flaps back to takeoff and those cowl flaps open.

 

[Bill]

I used to use 3 miles per 1000' in the Archer to get a 500fpm descent, I use 5 miles in the Mooney, more if I keep the power in and speeds up.

Yeah, I budget 6mi/1000 in the 201, but I keep power in and come downhill at 180kts. So, if I want to lose 6000ft, that's 36mi, but ATC often can't grant descent immediately, so I pad 10 and in this example ask for lower 46 out.

 

[wilzup]

Like everything else in life, it has a learning curve. One thing that will help is having an instructor who knows Mooneys and that can provide you the numbers to get certain performance from the plane.

In my F model, slowing to 100 KIAS is a 17" 2500 RPM setup. It changes a little based on time of year, but it is close enough to get the speed tuned in. For landing, I go back to 13" and 2400.

The big changes are in the flaps. When you are established on downwind at 100 KIAS, trim it out with 15° of flaps out. Drop the gear and reduce power to land, you will eventually settle in around 80 KIAS. Trim it out again. When you drop final flaps (33°) will get a noticeable nose down pitch. If you don't have electric trim, you will be swinging the trim wheel a bit. You should target 70 KIAS over the fence to prevent floating. If you are too fast, don't drop the nose wheel or you will begin a porpoise. If you let it bounce 3 times, the 4th will be a prop strike.

With that much trim up, if you need to do a go around, be prepared for heavy forward yoke push needed until you can trim it out. All of this is pretty straightforward if you are working with a Mooney knowledgeable instructor.

If you have other questions, come visits the Mooniacs at www.mooneyspace.com. Good group and plenty of Mooney knowledge to share.

Maruader. unbelievable! You captured everything, I mean everything I was experiencing. From the nose down @ full flaps, to the heavy input on go-around!
It does have electric trim but, I didn't use it until my return trip back to home base. It was a significant difference.

Thanks for the input!
E

 

[TMetzinger]

You'll adapt, and learn to love the Mooney. They're great cross-country machines and instrument platforms.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

You should use the trim and flaps at the same time, will keep the plane in trim.
You didn't mention the seating position so I'm going to assume you either drive a sports car or you have long legs...it's usually one first things people mention

 

[Pilawt]

You'll adapt, and learn to love the Mooney. They're great cross-country machines and instrument platforms.

The key to any high-performance airplane is to not let it take you anywhere your brain didn't get to ten minutes ago. With a little practice you'll get in sync with the airplane and it'll be all sunshine and roses from then on.

 

[FlyingTiger]

Sad thing is technically it's not considered high performance. Really makes no sense for a plane like this. The FAA should categorize high performance by cruise speeds instead of the rather arbitrary engine over 200hp.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Hmmm.....Advanced Aviation I take it.

Ha. That's funny. I sat in that one and swore I would never take anyone I cared about up in it.

I never even pursued getting checked out.

 

[wilzup]

You should use the trim and flaps at the same time, will keep the plane in trim.
You didn't mention the seating position so I'm going to assume you either drive a sports car or you have long legs...it's usually one first things people mention

Funny you should mention that! I did find the reach a little long when trying to brake. I figured I didn't have the seat up far enough.
E

 

[wilzup]

Ha. That's funny. I sat in that one and swore I would never take anyone I cared about up in it.

I never even pursued getting checked out.

It by no means a beauty queen on the inside but, it is functional. As long as everything I need works, I am good with it.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Most trainers, when you level off, they attain cruise airspeed quickly. So, in a 172, you might level off, set the trim, and you're good to go.

In a Mooney, it's slick, and the airframe will continue to accelerate after leveling off. Sometimes for a good while. And when it accelerates, it will climb. You will have to adjust trim as it accelerates.

Same thing going down, descend at 500fpm, and it's going to start to accelerate, and if you don't adjust trim to suit, you will find it will fight you and try to level off. Keep adjusting.



Do that, once you master it, you will like it. You'll get back in a 172 and wonder why the thing is so damned slow. (No offense to 172 owners, Ted would say the same thing of my 201 after getting out of his 310. It's all relative)

Yes! He's right on! Fly it some more and you'll throw rocks at a 172! Get someone who really can fly them to check you out. They are a dream once you get used to them. Energy management is the key especially with the mooney as it want to keep on keeping on when landing if your sloppy with the speed. Go for it! By myself, I usually came over the fence at 65 and landed it exactly as I would an aeronca, nose high. Full flaps, Never a problem. A sweetheart!

 

[gkainz]

I did my complex in a 201J. About the only thing I recall that was a little frustrating was reaching the fuel selector and the emergency gear extension without smacking my head on the dash.

 

[TMetzinger]

Oh, one caveat to the J model - the emergency gear extension mechanism in SOME Js have gears internally that can be soft and strip if the gear is not properly rigged. If I remember correctly the gears are part of the emergency extension part of the gear "transmission", and it doesn't affect the electric motor.

So if you get a chance, observe them swing the gear during annual, to be sure it's smooth. Also be sensitive to any indication of binding during normal extension and retraction.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

It by no means a beauty queen on the inside but, it is functional. As long as everything I need works, I am good with it.

How did the engine feel/run/sound? It was in annual forever and I thought they were going to scrap it. It goes for about $165/wet, right?

Speaking of endorsements, I grabbed my high altitude today. 20* nose down screaming out of the flight levels (VSI limit pegged at -4000fpm) while trying not to bust anything on the IFR clearance limits was awesome. I wasn't a big fan of the O2 mask.

 

[ettsn]

FWIW, you looked pretty good from the ground. I was Mike's 5:00p, so I watched your last 20 minutes or so, including your S turns and go around chasing that 152 on long final! Didn't look like you were struggling with it at all, and dang a Mooney is dead sexy gear up and cruising.

Keep at it. Mike is a great instructor. He'll get you there.

 

[EppyGA]

Just waiting for all you guys to come to a pancake breakfast.

 

[Hank S]

Just waiting for all you guys to come to a pancake breakfast.

Let us know when and where, at least a few days in advance. Like pancakes, like blueberries, like bacon & sausage. The more of these that sit beside my coffee cup, the happier I am.

 

[ettsn]

Shoot yeah, count me in too!

 

[Henning]

Don't sweat it, work on getting the trim for the speeds you need (and find VSo and 1.3 VSo for your weight for your real final approach target speed), and basic power settings for level flight and 600fpm descents at those speeds with the appropriate flap settings. That way you can stay ahead of the plane by applying the power setting you will need for the next phase of flight and trim the plane into it as you decelerate.

The Mooney is slippery so you have to use good technique to manage the energy. Never try to make it land, you have to slow it down with the nose up, or you will have a bad day.

 

[wilzup]

How did the engine feel/run/sound? It was in annual forever and I thought they were going to scrap it. It goes for about $165/wet, right?

Speaking of endorsements, I grabbed my high altitude today. 20* nose down screaming out of the flight levels (VSI limit pegged at -4000fpm) while trying not to bust anything on the IFR clearance limits was awesome. I wasn't a big fan of the O2 mask.

Congrats on the HA endorsement. It ran great, no hesitation or sputtering and pulled fine. They have it posted at $159/wet.

 

[wilzup]

FWIW, you looked pretty good from the ground. I was Mike's 5:00p, so I watched your last 20 minutes or so, including your S turns and go around chasing that 152 on long final! Didn't look like you were struggling with it at all, and dang a Mooney is dead sexy gear up and cruising.

Keep at it. Mike is a great instructor. He'll get you there.

Thanks ETTSN, the advice I have gotten here gives me confidence I'll do better Friday. You're right! Mike is awesome.

 

[EppyGA]

Let us know when and where, at least a few days in advance. Like pancakes, like blueberries, like bacon & sausage. The more of these that sit beside my coffee cup, the happier I am.

You're more than welcome to attend. First Saturday of every month @ KLZU. Serving begins at 8:00am - 10:30am and we have a program after breakfast. Cost is $6.00

Kind of funny, I was trying to get the ATL area guys to bite since they are right there and you chime in.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

You're more than welcome to attend. First Saturday of every month @ KLZU. Serving begins at 8:00am - 10:30am and we have a program after breakfast. Cost is $6.00

Kind of funny, I was trying to get the ATL area guys to bite since they are right there and you chime in.

I've been to a few of those for a few mins to meet a friend. Never had breakfast.

I hear everyone keeps eyeing up my old SkyTrasher after breakfast. I have a feeling it's going to rot there the rest of its life. Hasn't flown since Sept.

 

[Hank S]

You're more than welcome to attend. First Saturday of every month @ KLZU. Serving begins at 8:00am - 10:30am and we have a program after breakfast. Cost is $6.00

Kind of funny, I was trying to get the ATL area guys to bite since they are right there and you chime in.

Just have to circle around the Bravo . . .

 

[rbridges]

Hank, let me know if you decide to get some pancakes. Maybe I could get Gus to meet us up there.


btw, sorry for the thread drift.

 

[Lance F]

Hi Eric, where are you based? I've got an M20J at Covington KCVC and have a lot of real world time in this type. Come on down, and I'd be happy to do some coaching. This Saturday is our EAA pancake breakfast. Always a good time to get together and talk Mooneys.

 

[Somedudeintn]

You're more than welcome to attend. First Saturday of every month @ KLZU. Serving begins at 8:00am - 10:30am and we have a program after breakfast. Cost is $6.00

Kind of funny, I was trying to get the ATL area guys to bite since they are right there and you chime in.

Haha, I was at the breakfast when the Garmin guy gave his ads-b talk. I left very full (belly and brain). I'll try to drop by again and let you know I'm coming.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Hi Eric, where are you based? I've got an M20J at Covington KCVC and have a lot of real world time in this type. Come on down, and I'd be happy to do some coaching. This Saturday is our EAA pancake breakfast. Always a good time to get together and talk Mooneys.

I need Mooney time for insurance. I'm based at LZU. Could I possibly take you up on the offer?

 

[EppyGA]

I've been to a few of those for a few mins to meet a friend. Never had breakfast.

I hear everyone keeps eyeing up my old SkyTrasher after breakfast. I have a feeling it's going to rot there the rest of its life. Hasn't flown since Sept.

The Skymaster is your?

 

[EppyGA]

Haha, I was at the breakfast when the Garmin guy gave his ads-b talk. I left very full (belly and brain). I'll try to drop by again and let you know I'm coming.

Glad you came by, should have introduced yourself! I'm hard to miss, I'm the guy on stage with the microphone