Complex Endorsement/Arrow Checkout

momalley

momalley

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momalley
I want to get checked out in my clubs Arrow so I can use it for some 300nm or so cross countries. Due to the last Arrow being gear up'd insurance now requires 15hrs dual before I can be PIC.....Here is my question/dilemma...

I am a newly minted pilot with just under 70 total hours. I was anticipating starting my IR training next fall (2015). Should I just bite the bullet and start my IR training now to get some more value out of the required 15hrs or stick with my original plan?

Thanks,
Mike
 
momalley said:
I want to get checked out in my clubs Arrow so I can use it for some 300nm or so cross countries. Due to the last Arrow being gear up'd insurance now requires 15hrs dual before I can be PIC.....Here is my question/dilemma...

I am a newly minted pilot with just under 70 total hours. I was anticipating starting my IR training next fall (2015). Should I just bite the bullet and start my IR training now to get some more value out of the required 15hrs or stick with my original plan?

Thanks,
Mike
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I'm not sure how much of the 15 hours will be needed to learn the systems of a complex aircraft, but I'm told 5 hours or so should be enough. That leaves 10 hours of "practice" with things you've already learned. As long as you have things under control, I don't see any reason why you couldn't learn the instrument scan (step 1 in most IR lesson plans) in pretty much any airplane. (Especially since my impression of complex ops is that they're pretty different in takeoff/landing, but not much different in cruise.) Provided the panel isn't too different from what you'd take the bulk of the IR lessons in (ie, glass vs steam gauges), I'd think the skills would carry over well.
 
Yes, I would definitely get some simulated instrument time done with the extra hours. It shouldn't take more than 5 hours to get used to the prop and gear stuff. I think it would be a waste of time if you didn't try to get something more out of those hours.
 
momalley said:
I want to get checked out in my clubs Arrow so I can use it for some 300nm or so cross countries. Due to the last Arrow being gear up'd insurance now requires 15hrs dual before I can be PIC.....Here is my question/dilemma...

I am a newly minted pilot with just under 70 total hours. I was anticipating starting my IR training next fall (2015). Should I just bite the bullet and start my IR training now to get some more value out of the required 15hrs or stick with my original plan?

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...

I would. If this is going to be the plane you'll be doing your traveling in, and presumably you will be doing some of this IFR, it sounds like you'll spend at least some of those hours killing two birds with one stone. Remember though, that you'll need 50 hours of XC PIC to get your instrument rating, so try to configure as much of the training as possible to meet cross country requirements since you can now log dual XC as PIC.
 
Makes sense to me. You will probably still want to do the bulk of your training and the checkride in a 172 or equivalent though.
 
My club has the same requirement. I am just doing hood time to build to the 40 hours and we are doing holds and approaches to build for the IFR requirements. So in effect I am completing the hours needed for IFR as well as hours needed to take the Arrow out on my own.
 
Question for the masses, if he's resigned to doing instrument training in the Arrow, worth it to just do instrument and commercial together?
 
momalley said:
I have no where near enough hours for Commercial rating
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Yeah, I missed the 70 hours thing. I do know that many students on the professional pilot trajectory do commercial and instrument concurrently, so much so that Jeppesen has one consolodated textbook for ground school. Since you'd need to demonstrate complex aircraft proficiency for the commercial, I just thought it might be a way to get something additional for the premium that you'd be paying to do in an Arrow what you could also do in an Archer (instruments).

Anyway, what Ron Levy might tell you (because I've seen him tell this to others) is that instrument training is most successful if you are already are comfortable and proficient in and know well the aircraft you're training in. To that extent, jumping into a new plane and starting instrument training is it might not be the most efficient, and particualrly not valuable if you're not going to stay in the Arrow as you usual ride after getting your checkout and/or hypothetical instrument checkride.

Anyway, 15 hours to remember to put the gear down, huh? You know, I'd love make the least number of landings feasible in that time, maybe take the plane on 2 round trip XCs of 3.75 hrs each way (4 landings total) just to prove the point how assinine such arbitrary restrictions are. How completely transparent that the insurer is just trying to limit the number of hours flown in the model by any means possible, with the adverse secection side effect that the cost to insure per hour flown actually goes up -- until their business goes away because no one flys the plane at all.
 
If the instructor doing the initial instruction and checkout is a CFII, then I agree that the "extra" hours you need to reach the 15 hours in type would be well spent working on the basics of Instrument flying.

  1. Determine the configurations (MP, RPM, Air Speed, Flaps, Attitude, Gear Up or Down, etc) that your Arrow wants to be at for the various phases of flight (Climb, Cruise Climb, Cruise, Cruise Descent, Approach Level, Precision Approach, Non-Precision Approach)
  2. Work on your basic scan so you can handle level flight, simple turns and simple climbs.
  3. Work on how to intercept a VOR radial and correctly fly to or from the station, maintaining the course, heading, and altitude within PTS standards.
  4. Same as #3, but fly to (inbound) the VOR station on one radial, and from (outbound) on a different one.
  5. Practice unusual attitude recovery
  6. Practice 2, 3, & 4 with the AI and HI covered to simulate vacuum failures
In essence, there is plenty of productive training to be done to fill the time. And since your intent with the Arrow is to fly longer trips, having the basic IFR skills will serve you well. And whet your appetite to complete the rating.

(please ignore the attachment being upside down... I haven't been successful fixing that so it will post correctly)
 

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Thanks for the responses so far.....

I guess my plan would be to do most of the 15hrs via 100nm-300nm trips and working on basic instrument skills.

Panels in the Arrow/Archer/Warrior are very similar so that should make the transition between planes a little easier.

I have my 1st lesson scheduled for this evening and will discuss options with my CFI
 
I started my IFR training in a 172. Then once I got comfortable with both IFR flying a procedures in that, my instructor put me in a Bonanza for 10 hours which got me the HP/Complex endorsement, got me the insurance-required hours in the plane, and threw some additional challenges at me to keep me from getting too comfortable.

I don't see any problem in starting in the Arrow, but if you're going to split your training time between it and a lower performance plane the order I did it in seemed to work well.
 
bluesky74656 said:
I started my IFR training in a 172. Then once I got comfortable with both IFR flying a procedures in that, my instructor put me in a Bonanza for 10 hours which got me the HP/Complex endorsement, got me the insurance-required hours in the plane, and threw some additional challenges at me to keep me from getting too comfortable.

I don't see any problem in starting in the Arrow, but if you're going to split your training time between it and a lower performance plane the order I did it in seemed to work well.
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Perhaps, but it sounds like he wants to use he arrow for VFR XCs now. By getting 15 hours of instrument/aircraft checkout time done first, he can start flying the arrow on non-training VFR XCs, as was his stated intention. He can always switch back to the cheaper planes for instructional flying after the 15 hours are up.
 
15 hours dual! OUCH! Our club's insurance only required 10 hours with no previous complex experience. On top of that, however, they also require a minimum of 100 hours TT. Back in 2002 I happened to hit 100 hours TT at the same time I hit 10 hours dual in the Arrow.

Did it take me 10 hours to be comfortable in the Arrow? No. Did I learn useful things during that 10 hours? Yes.

If this is the plane you are going to get your IR in, use some of those 15 hours to get IR instruction. Double duty for the time. And Ron's suggestion that you do all your IR training in one plane that your are comfortable in is wise. During my training we flew three different planes. A C-172N (/G, took the ride in it), a C-182P (/A) and the Arrow (/U). While this wasn't optimal, it did show me that I don't like flying IR in a /U airplane. I really missed the DME. /A vs. /G is less critical, unless you need the GPS for approaches to an airport you are flying to. Then it becomes more important. Where flying the same plane really helps is in knowing the knob-ology of the panel. Of course, the power settings were different for each plane, too. You'll avoid that complication by using one plane for the training and IR ride. Some time in the other planes can be useful, however. The day after passing my IR ride we flew across the state under IFR (nice weather, but the practice was good), but in the 182. No GPS, but for what I filed it didn't matter.

Have fun.
 
momalley said:
I am a newly minted pilot with just under 70 total hours. I was anticipating starting my IR training next fall (2015). Should I just bite the bullet and start my IR training now to get some more value out of the required 15hrs or stick with my original plan?
Click to expand...
If you want to fly the Arrow, making that 15 hours worthwhile by starting your IR training makes a lot of sense to me. However, an Arrow isn't enough faster than an Archer (or whatever 150-180HP 4-seater you're flying now) to make a lot of difference on a 300nm trip (especially on a trip cost basis, since the Arrow probably cost significantly more per hour to rent), so I'd suggest sticking with the Archer. If nothing else, the extra minutes on each trip will help build your 50 hours of XC PIC time you need for the IR. But on the third hand, if you have a reason to be building complex time (say, because you see a Bonanza in your future or something like that), starting your IR training in the Arrow now makes a lot of sense, as you'll be building complex time as well as XC PIC time on those XC's.

Hope those considerations help you make the best decision for you.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you want to fly the Arrow, making that 15 hours worthwhile by starting your IR training makes a lot of sense to me. However, an Arrow isn't enough faster than an Archer (or whatever 150-180HP 4-seater you're flying now) to make a lot of difference on a 300nm trip (especially on a trip cost basis, since the Arrow probably cost significantly more per hour to rent), so I'd suggest sticking with the Archer. If nothing else, the extra minutes on each trip will help build your 50 hours of XC PIC time you need for the IR. But on the third hand, if you have a reason to be building complex time (say, because you see a Bonanza in your future or something like that), starting your IR training in the Arrow now makes a lot of sense, as you'll be building complex time as well as XC PIC time on those XC's.

Hope those considerations help you make the best decision for you.
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Cost difference is $21/hr from the Archer and and $30/hr from the Warrior.....There all about the same price based on cost per nm....

The Arrow has the best availability out of the 4 planes in the club (1 Archer II and 2 Warrior II's) so getting to take it on multi-day trips without getting hit up for daily minimums is another consideration.
 
get some cross country too.

I was 10 hours dual plus 15 solo to fly an Arrow
 
Even though you don't yet have the total time required for the Commercial rating, there is no reason that you can't use the time to meet some Commercial and IFR requirements.

(The Dual Commercial XC's, which would count towards the Xc PIC requirement for the IFR rating)..

There is no reason not to do some XC work, with the hood on as well. Work on some IFR basics, and build time/get XC experience toward the 50 PIC XC hour requirement.
 
I'd bite the bullet and go ahead and get your IR out of the way. I did the last half of my IR training and checkride in our Arrow.

I was able to get my complex signed off in a little under 2 hours.
 
momalley said:
Cost difference is $21/hr from the Archer and and $30/hr from the Warrior.....There all about the same price based on cost per nm....

The Arrow has the best availability out of the 4 planes in the club (1 Archer II and 2 Warrior II's) so getting to take it on multi-day trips without getting hit up for daily minimums is another consideration.
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Now you're starting to think critically and objectively. Keep it up and you'll come to a good decision.
 
ja_user said:
Even though you don't yet have the total time required for the Commercial rating, there is no reason that you can't use the time to meet some Commercial and IFR requirements.

(The Dual Commercial XC's, which would count towards the Xc PIC requirement for the IFR rating)..

There is no reason not to do some XC work, with the hood on as well. Work on some IFR basics, and build time/get XC experience toward the 50 PIC XC hour requirement.
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That is my intention.....If I have to pay for a CFI I want the flights to be usable for rating requirements
 
momalley said:
Cost difference is $21/hr from the Archer and and $30/hr from the Warrior.....There all about the same price based on cost per nm....

The Arrow has the best availability out of the 4 planes in the club (1 Archer II and 2 Warrior II's) so getting to take it on multi-day trips without getting hit up for daily minimums is another consideration.
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With a 15 hr up-front investment just to use it, it makes sense that the Arrow would be more available, despite a modest difference in hourly rate.
 
DJTorrente said:
With a 15 hr up-front investment just to use it, it makes sense that the Arrow would be more available, despite a modest difference in hourly rate.
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Yea, it appears that right now the Arrow is only used for those going for Commercial training
 
I dont see much benefit in having to deal with landing gear and prop for not much performance or comfort benefit.. maybe im missing something maybe its the cool factor of the gear etc..
 
marcoseddi said:
I dont see much benefit in having to deal with landing gear and prop for not much performance or comfort benefit.. maybe im missing something maybe its the cool factor of the gear etc..
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Maybe I need the retract time for insurance purposes before I take possession on the AOPA Debonair :)
 
momalley said:
I want to get checked out in my clubs Arrow so I can use it for some 300nm or so cross countries. Due to the last Arrow being gear up'd insurance now requires 15hrs dual before I can be PIC.....Here is my question/dilemma...

I am a newly minted pilot with just under 70 total hours. I was anticipating starting my IR training next fall (2015). Should I just bite the bullet and start my IR training now to get some more value out of the required 15hrs or stick with my original plan?

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...

Is that the airplane you'd likely fly IFR? If so, you might consider just doing your IR in it for consistency and familiarity during and after the training.

15 hours is overkill just for a complex endorsement so yeah combining it with some IR work makes sense especially if that will be your IFR XC airplane.

RGs are easier, IMHO, if that is all or mostly what you fly. The gear becomes 2nd nature and if you don't drop the wheels you don't slow down. Even so, when I practice landings solo I'm flying around the pattern screaming to myself "Gear in transition (hand on the lever), gear is down, got three wheels (I have mirrors) and a light!" It took me all of 1 flight to figure that out so yeah you might as well knock off some IR work too.
 
marcoseddi said:
I dont see much benefit in having to deal with landing gear and prop for not much performance or comfort benefit.. maybe im missing something maybe its the cool factor of the gear etc..
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You say that now but wait until I dl teach you to fly the Arrow lol.
 
I think I'm going to hold off on the Arrow for now. I spoke to my CFI/CFII the other day and talk this through a little. He starts the IR training with 20/hrs in the sim and then finishes with about 20/hrs in the plane. Looks like cost to do the IR in the Arrow would be about $5,700 in total.

Since I only have 9.5/hrs X/C PIC I think I'll work on getting another 10-15 hours X/C PIC in the Warrior or Archer and then look to start IR training in the spring after I get my tax refund.
 
marcoseddi said:
I dont see much benefit in having to deal with landing gear and prop for not much performance or comfort benefit.. maybe im missing something maybe its the cool factor of the gear etc..
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For short trips I agree but for long trips an extra 10-20 kts is a big deal.
 
Also most flight school/rental RGs have gear issues and eventually gear up. If you're going the professional pilot route make sure you consider the effects of an accident/incident on your record and whether or not that's worth 10-20kts.
 
PA-11 said:
Also most flight school/rental RGs have gear issues and eventually gear up. If you're going the professional pilot route make sure you consider the effects of an accident/incident on your record and whether or not that's worth 10-20kts.
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The failure mode for Piper gear is generally down. Barring headspace and timing issues.
 
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