Complex but with gear retract disabled?

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Dwight B. Van Zanen

Pre-takeoff checklist
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This is an odd question. If you have a complex aircraft for sale, but a buyer does not have the complex endorsement, can the seller have the gear retract system disabled so it is effectively a fixed gear plane for the purpose of the buyer getting the plane home? At the cost of some speed and fuel, could this get the plane moved legally without a complex endorsement?
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
This is an odd question. If you have a complex aircraft for sale, but a buyer does not have the complex endorsement, can the seller have the gear retract system disabled so it is effectively a fixed gear plane for the purpose of the buyer getting to plane home? At the cost of some speed and fuel, could this get the plane moved legally without a complex endorsement?
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I'm looking for a better citation that my word, but there was a joke in a Rod Machado book about this not being possible. When Machado jokes, he's usually 100% correct.
 
SkyHog said:
I'm looking for a better citation that my word, but there was a joke in a Rod Machado book about this not being possible. When Machado jokes, he's usually 100% correct.
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I expected that was the case, but not sure where to find it in the FAR's. Likely could not get insurance coverage to start either, without the complex endorsement and some time in type. Just wondering about the rules.
 
14 CFR 61.31(e)(1) doesn't say "an airplane that has a working retractable landing gear," just "an airplane that has a retractable landing gear." If any one landing gear may be retracted, it's complex, whether it's currently working or not.
 
Yep. Just like the high altitude endorsement. Even if you only intend to fly the traffic pattern at 1000', you still need an endorsement if the aircraft is CERTIFICATED to do whtever the endorsement is for - ya have to have it.
 
Ron Levy said:
14 CFR 61.31(e)(1) doesn't say "an airplane that has a working retractable landing gear," just "an airplane that has a retractable landing gear." If any one landing gear may be retracted, it's complex, whether it's currently working or not.
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I am sure that is how the FAA views it, and the insurance companies too. But in normal english, if the landing gear retract mechanism is not working the landing gear is not "retractable" until the mechanism is repaired. If you have the mechanism that works but just choose not to use it, you have a retractable landing gear - just like if you have a plane that can go high altitude by choose not to fly high - or a variable pitch prop but choose not to change the pitch. If it is not in fact retractable, how can it still be a retractable landing gear? Not arguing. Just wondering how the logic works.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
But in normal english, if the landing gear retract mechanism is not working the landing gear is not "retractable" until the mechanism is repaired.
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And if the mechanism isn't working, the aircraft is not airworthy.

To think of it another way - All of the cruise performance, range, fuel burn, etc. charts in the POH are going to be done for gear retracted. Every checklist will tell you to pull the gear up after takeoff. Doing anything else would be "operating an aircraft contrary to..." I think the point is made.

Of course, with a new airplane, he's gonna need some dual anyway, so why not bring his CFI along to pick it up and get started? That's how I've visualized every fantasy airplane purchase I've ever made. :rofl:
 
my best answer is a look to the TCDS:

Cessna 172RG - http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/735f374b586fb1e3862572430062e861/$FILE/3A17.pdf

Its still under that type cert, so its still retractable, even when the gear won't retract.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Of course, with a new airplane, he's gonna need some dual anyway, so why not bring his CFI along to pick it up and get started? That's how I've visualized every fantasy airplane purchase I've ever made. :rofl:
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Jeez, it's not like a complex endorsement is that big a deal. 10 trips around the pattern, a couple that include transition to cruise configuration. Done.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Jeez, it's not like a complex endorsement is that big a deal.
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True, I wish my insurance would accept the same requirements as the endorsement. I am required to have 10hr dual & 10hr solo in type prior to flying passengers.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Jeez, it's not like a complex endorsement is that big a deal. 10 trips around the pattern, a couple that include transition to cruise configuration. Done.
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Unfortunately, the flight schools seem to think it is. A local school sells a complex transition course: 10 hours of flight time in an Arrow 200, 13 hours of instructor time, $1,768. Min. 100 hrs TT. Rip-off.

This is also to get checked out to rent the plane solo, so you might could actually get just the endorsement in less hours. But still....:rolleyes:
 
Andrew N. said:
Unfortunately, the flight schools seem to think it is. A local school sells a complex transition course: 10 hours of flight time in an Arrow 200, 13 hours of instructor time, $1,768. Min. 100 hrs TT. Rip-off.

This is also to get checked out to rent the plane solo, so you might could actually get just the endorsement in less hours. But still....:rolleyes:
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I dug up my old logbook and checked out my complex sign-off. 5 hours dual for insurance purposes. 12 landings, emergency gear procedures and all five hours were logged as cross country by my instructor.

My partner in my Lance is low time and needed complex/HP endorsements. The insurance co gave him 10 hours dual, to include 15 t/o & landings to a full stop. That's it. He has less than 100 TT.
 
Andrew N. said:
Unfortunately, the flight schools seem to think it is. A local school sells a complex transition course: 10 hours of flight time in an Arrow 200, 13 hours of instructor time, $1,768. Min. 100 hrs TT. Rip-off.

This is also to get checked out to rent the plane solo, so you might could actually get just the endorsement in less hours. But still....:rolleyes:
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Are you in Houston and referring to Anson Air? Because if not, then this is an INCREDIBLE coincidence:

From Anson Air's website:
COMPLEX TRANSITION COURSE

This course includes 10 hours of flight time in our Piper PA28R-200 retractable gear aircraft. With 140 knots true airspeed and 995 pounds of useful load, our Piper Arrow is a very cost effective traveling airplane. Upon successful completion of the complex transition course, you will have a complex aircraft endorsement and be checked out to fly solo at Anson Air.
  • 10 Hours of time in a PA28R aircraft including fuel
  • 13 hours of FAA certificated flight instructor time
  • PA-28R Information Manual
  • Taxes and fees
  • 5% Discount
Prerequisites for this course:
Private pilot, airplane single engine land, current BFR, medical certificate, and 100 hours total logged time

Course Package Price: $1,768
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I'm doing my PPL training at Anson, so if you're here in the Houston area, we need to get together and go flying sometime.
 
ken, sounds about right for a complex, although i usually try to rack up the workload so that at about the midpoint they forget the gear once. this usually instills the fear of god, and i am fairly confident they wont forget again.

sometimes you dont even have to try too hard. last one i did just being in controlled airspace was enough. we were the only airplane landing at DSM but the required communications managed to break down the students procedures enough that i had to remind him. we had a nice chat about it and several more times around the pattern.
 
So just for a short laugh. Lets say you could write the airplane up as a non complex aircraft if you kept the gear down. What would you call it if only half of the gear retracted? Half complex, half not? Or maybe half fixed geared/half float plane? Talk about some serious gray areas. Hehe
 
t0r0nad0 said:
Are you in Houston and referring to Anson Air? Because if not, then this is an INCREDIBLE coincidence.
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Chances are good for the exact price but the requirements most flight schools are set by their insurance policy. I know our club's are.

Joe
 
Ken Ibold said:
Jeez, it's not like a complex endorsement is that big a deal. 10 trips around the pattern, a couple that include transition to cruise configuration. Done.
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I got mine on 9-11-03. It was two flights, I think. A zillion trips around the pattern, going takeoff - gear up - 25 squared - level off - reduce power - gear down - land. CFI gave me the endorsement even though I was nowhere close to rental requirements.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
This is an odd question. If you have a complex aircraft for sale, but a buyer does not have the complex endorsement, can the seller have the gear retract system disabled so it is effectively a fixed gear plane for the purpose of the buyer getting the plane home? At the cost of some speed and fuel, could this get the plane moved legally without a complex endorsement?
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uh. NO.
sigh...

But if you take your CFI along with you, betcha have the endorsement by the time you land at home....
 
Schools and CFIs require substantial training time for good reason. Maybe it's a cliché but it's true; there are those who have landed gear up and those who will.

I'm sure insurance companies have paid out enough for this these incidents so they certainly won't relax the standard. CFIs put their ticket on the line when they sign off on an endorsement. One of any value won't relax his standard, either. When I started flying the 182RG during comm training, approach and landing procedures were drilled in and I was given no slack if I failed on the checklist.

Learning is costly. Not learning can be of insurmountable value.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'm wondering why that wasn't choice #1... Some reason this won't work Dwight?
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It would be choice #2. The question was a hypothetical about how the rules work. Retractable does not mean it can actually retract in this case; or rather, if it can't retract it is not a fixed gear either since it is not airworthy. I am not shopping for a complex plane (yet), but if I am in that situation I will want to get the complex before I do much looking, (Choice #1) so I can be more open about where to look for a good one.
 
KennyFlys said:
...those who have landed gear up and those who will.
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When I came back after a 20 year lay off, I was fortunate to have a retired USAF instructor who insisted that I check and say outloud, 'Flaps down, gear down', every time while on final. This was flying a Skyhawk.

So, I did. I'd look at some imaginary 3 green and call it.

The later transition to retracts was a non event, and I had no issues with it. To this day, I call gear down regardless of the aircraft.

I appreciate that kind of forward looking training.
 
Terry Miller said:
When I came back after a 20 year lay off, I was fortunate to have a retired USAF instructor who insisted that I check and say outloud, 'Flaps down, gear down', every time while on final. This was flying a Skyhawk.

So, I did. I'd look at some imaginary 3 green and call it.

The later transition to retracts was a non event, and I had no issues with it. To this day, I call gear down regardless of the aircraft.

I appreciate that kind of forward looking training.
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There has been talk, and incidents, that training like this will cause you to say it but not actually do it. Since you never had to actually do it before.

I think there is a story about a flight school installing a gear lever in a C172 for training. Someone landed gear up in their 172RG because they were in the habit of putting the lever down but not in the habit of actually ensuring they came down.
 
jesse said:
...that training like this will cause you to say it but not actually do it.
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Well, I guess nothing's fool proof.

That is interesting. The only way I could think of forgetting to put the gear down, is to forget I have it. I cannot imagine forgetting I have it, if I'm saying out loud, 'Gear Down.'

I am tho, about 11,000 hours short of my behavioral psychology degree. Was it concluded that it is better to not train this method in fixed gear?

I'm not trying to champion the method, I'm just curious as to whether it was deemed to do more harm than good.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I dug up my old logbook and checked out my complex sign-off. 5 hours dual for insurance purposes. 12 landings, emergency gear procedures and all five hours were logged as cross country by my instructor.

My partner in my Lance is low time and needed complex/HP endorsements. The insurance co gave him 10 hours dual, to include 15 t/o & landings to a full stop. That's it. He has less than 100 TT.
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I'm looking at 1.6 hrs in a 172RG, it says 10 T/O & L & "emergency gear extension & emergency awareness" I was a student with 22.4 hrs TT when signed off. I was also able to rent it solo after that and did two of my cross countries in it.... Times sure have changed.:(
 
terry, the idea is that after countless hours of sitting in your 172 and saying "gear down" and having *nothing* change on the aircraft i.e. pitch attitude, configuration etc. that you will not pay attention to those important cues when actually flying a rectractable gear aircraft. you will say "gear down" and the airplane will keep flying the way it always has been, and that will be normal to you.
 
I had 2 CFII's in the plane with me the other day, and coming in for landing the one in the back chimes in with "3 green". We were in my old straight leg Piper. (the guy in the back seat was a new CFII, wanting to see how a real lesson is done) Just the way he was taught, and was passing it on. My regular CFII was content with the fact that we had gear attached and down on the TO roll. But I can see that moving on to complex would be easier with that habit. When settled in with a fixed gear plane, when you do not have to even think about it since that is all you ever fly, you could have more trouble with the transition when done later in your flight training.
 
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Ken Ibold said:
I dug up my old logbook and checked out my complex sign-off. 5 hours dual for insurance purposes. 12 landings, emergency gear procedures and all five hours were logged as cross country by my instructor.

My partner in my Lance is low time and needed complex/HP endorsements. The insurance co gave him 10 hours dual, to include 15 t/o & landings to a full stop. That's it. He has less than 100 TT.
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My insurance company required 25 hours dual before insuring me in the 182RG. No requirement for # of landings. Made lots of neat trips, but the trips did little regarding the use of the RG.
 
I say "gear down and locked" in the retracts, and "gear down and welded" in the fixed gear planes, and "gear up for water landing" or "gear down for runway landing" in the amphibs (when I am along as a copilot as I'm not rated for seaplanes yet).
 
tonycondon said:
...after countless hours of...saying "gear down" and having *nothing* change...you will not pay attention to those important cues when actually flying a rectractable gear aircraft.
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Ok, I can see that.

Tho I still appreciate having been subjected to this method of training, I can see how it might not necessarily be a good one.

Thanks Tony.
 
Terry Miller said:
When I came back after a 20 year lay off, I was fortunate to have a retired USAF instructor who insisted that I check and say outloud, 'Flaps down, gear down', every time while on final. This was flying a Skyhawk.

So, I did. I'd look at some imaginary 3 green and call it.

The later transition to retracts was a non event, and I had no issues with it. To this day, I call gear down regardless of the aircraft.

I appreciate that kind of forward looking training.
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I know the idea of a phony gear control is somewhat of a risk and I wouldn't recommend it. But, going through a mental checklist regardless of RG or fixed is a good idea. I've seen very few pilots not use "GUMPS" on fixed gear aircraft. The "U" may not apply to that 172S it's good procedure nonetheless.
 
I do CGUMPS every time I come in to land in the 172N... Carb Heat on, Gas on both (even though I never take it off of both, but it prepares me for flying a plane where I have to change to fullest tank), Undercarriage fixed (in preparation for a retractable), Mixture full rich, Prop fixed (in preparation for a constant-speed prop), and Seatbelts on and fastened.
 
t0r0nad0 said:
Mixture full rich
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I use something similar but I would suggest 'Mixture as required' instead of full rich. Full rich on a hot day at high altitude will result in a less than desirable go around attempt.

I fly at about 1200 sea level and it's always full rich around here anyways. But one of those if and when kind of things.
 
KennyFlys said:
"GUMPS"
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I honestly don't know what GUMPS represents anymore. I always just make up pages of check lists from the POH and use those.

I do remember laughing at one person saying that GUMPS was,.....

Gear down
Undercarriage down
Make sure the gear is down
Put the Gear down
S***! I forgot the gear!

I'm sure that's an old one, but new to me at the time.
 
I purposely do NOT do a gumps check on a fixed, because I do not want to gt into the habit of just going through the motions of saying U without actually doing anything.

IN a fixed/fixed I use FMS - fuel, mixture, switches/seats. That way if/when I upgrade to a retract, I don't go through the routine of doing nothing when I get to the critical stage, law of primacy and all...
 
EdFred said:
I purposely do NOT do a gumps check on a fixed, because I do not want to gt into the habit of just going through the motions of saying U without actually doing anything.
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So, do something. My primary CFI always made me look out the window to be sure the gear was still there and the tire looked OK, etc. So I call "down and welded" and take a peek, if I'm in a high-wing. Obviously, you'll have to do something different but there's nothing saying you can't do something.
 
Andrew N. said:
Unfortunately, the flight schools seem to think it is. A local school sells a complex transition course: 10 hours of flight time in an Arrow 200, 13 hours of instructor time, $1,768. Min. 100 hrs TT. Rip-off.

This is also to get checked out to rent the plane solo, so you might could actually get just the endorsement in less hours. But still....:rolleyes:
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Those hours, 10 dual and 100 TT, are identical to what the insurance company requires before soloing our club's PA-28R-200. I did that 5 years ago. Now I just have to make sure I log at least 3 hours in it in a 180 day period, or I have to get signed off by a CFI again (and then fly it within 45 days of that).
 
i think our club is 5 hrs with CFI and 100 total time for a 180 hp Arrow. but its 90 bucks an hour and the 150s are 55. the arrow is slow enough that the 150 works out to be the cheapest per mile so thats what I usually fly.
 
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