complex airplane endorsement

[Peter Ha]

Hey folks,
Trying to get endorsement to fly C172RG cause it's rented out less and am constantly looking to improve(aren't we all?).
How many hours and training does it usually take for endorsement?
Any tips on flying complex planes?
Especially this: RPM must be higher then manifold pressure. Has anyone did the opposite? What happens to the airplane?

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Hey folks,
Trying to get endorsement to fly C172RG cause it's less rented out and available to fly.
How many hours and training does it usually take for endorsement?
Any tips on flying complex planes?

All of a sudden that U in GUMPS becomes a real thing.
In terms of how long it will take, that depends on your club's rules more than you. I've seen some with ten-hour dual requirements.

 

[Ravioli]

You may find the endorsement comes faster than the dual required by the insurance company.

But I'm just repeating what @Kenny Phillips typed faster.

 

[sourdough44]

Never go past abeam the numbers without putting the gear down.

Every letter in GUMPS is reference to making sure the gear is down.

 

[Clip4]

Hey folks,
Trying to get endorsement to fly C172RG cause it's rented out less and am constantly looking to improve(aren't we all?).
How many hours and training does it usually take for endorsement?
Any tips on flying complex planes?

You have three issues. The complex training, a make/model check out, and insurance requirements. Insurance may require 5-10 hours dual since you have zero complex time.

 

[Peter Ha]

Start by reading the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook, Chapter 11

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...e_handbook/media/airplane_flying_handbook.pdf

Already did, and had 1st ground lesson with CFI, thanks!

 

[steingar]

Get the aircraft dirtied up and ready for the landing before you hit the downwind. Most complex aircraft have to be slowed down considerably to reply the gear, don't know if that's the case for a retractable Skyhawk. Still, best to get the gear down and flaps put in before you hit a busy and distracting landing pattern.

Get the dear down
Undercarriage down
Make certain the damn gear is down
Put your hand on the gear switch and make certain it's down
See the gear? Is it down?

 

[Peter Ha]

I'm more concerned about the "RPM must be higher then manifold pressure" maneuver.
RPM high to for take-off and landing; while manifold must decrease for descent, etc.
This is new concept for me; what tips do pilots use to remember?

 

[NoBShere]

I decided to get the complex endorsement for the same reasons, plane availability where I rent. I also timed it so that I could knock out Wings credit for my two year. The school had a 10 hour requirement (guessing from insurance but don't know for sure). I enjoyed flying with the CFI I chose so I didn't really think much of the 10 hour requirement. I also worked in some cross wind landing training so I could up my comfort level. I'm relatively low time so it was easy to make the 10 hours worthwhile for me.

 

[Peter Ha]

I decided to get the complex endorsement for the same reasons, plane availability where I rent. I also timed it so that I could knock out Wings credit for my two year. The school had a 10 hour requirement (guessing from insurance but don't know for sure). I enjoyed flying with the CFI I chose so I didn't really think much of the 10 hour requirement. I also worked in some cross wind landing training so I could up my comfort level. I'm relatively low time so it was easy to make the 10 hours worthwhile for me.

Hmmm... my flight school said 4 hours should get me the endorsement.
Do I need to ask for 10 hours for insurance purpose?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Always, always, always! make sure the gear is down.
Don't be this guy:

Somebody had to do it.

 

[Caramon13]

Why does insurance matter? If it's a rental who cares? I rent and I can tell you I don't pay anymore in renter's insurance whether I fly a complex plane or not. Now, OWNING a complex plane may be a different story. The OP sounded like he was asking about renting for the purpose of an endorsement.

I can tell you an endorsement for complex is maybe a few hours, but there will be some ground work likely to understand the gear system and the constant speed prop. Remember complex is more than gear folks...

GUMP is

Gas (on the right tank)
Undercarriage (Gear down and locked)
Mixture (Best power)
Prop (high pitch)

Despite what others are telling you. It's complex, it's not just about the gear.

Sometimes rental places will want insurance to cover the FBO's deductible in an accident, but that requires ZERO additional hours.

 

[Tantalum]

What happened to the plane?

There was a tremendous cry that emanated from the skies and all the world's metal sky beasts came crashing to the earth, there was much suffering and gnashing of teeth

**heads up that that rule you mentioned is a rule of thumb at best, and is in the same vein of "lugging" your engine, IE, gunning your car without shifting to a higher gear. Several planes have POH settings that go against that rule, two that immediately come to mind are the 182 and SR22
-the 182Q for example has several power profiles at lower altitudes that have a higher MP than RPM (see below)
-the Cirrus turbo models have 2500 or 2700 RPM settings for full power and cruise but also go up to 30-33 (or 36) inches for takeoff and cruise.. some variations in SR22T vs TN and different generations, but they all exhibit some scenarios where the manifold pressure is higher than RPM.. and you can run the engine there for hours at a time

 

[RyanB]

Why does insurance matter?

Because, the insurance company still gets the last word of who gets to fly the airplane and who doesn’t. If the renter pilot doesn’t meet their requirements and he/she has an accident, they won’t pay any claims made by the flight school.

 

[Caramon13]

Because, the insurance company still gets the last word of who gets to fly the airplane and who doesn’t. If the renter pilot doesn’t meet their requirements and he/she has an accident, they won’t pay any claims made by the flight school.

When I was going after my CPL a complex endorsement never required any additional insurance work. That was the OP's original question right? Along with the thread's title?

I get that he wants to also fly it AFTER the endorsement.

In that case flying the plane solo DOES often require additional stuff, yeah. I know one school around here has a complex that is dual only. Such a waste.

 

[Pugs]

I'm more concerned about the "RPM must be higher then manifold pressure" maneuver.
RPM high to for take-off and landing; while manifold must decrease for descent, etc.
This is new concept for me; what tips do pilots use to remember?

Don't overthink it. With the prop forward for takeoff and landing it's all the throttle just like you're used to. On descent the throttle comes back as normal and I do not push the prop forward until about the abeam position on landing as the throttle will be back and it will be much quieter for your airport neighbors.

 

[RyanB]

When I was going after my CPL a complex endorsement never required any additional insurance work. That was the OP's original question right? Along with the thread's title?

I get that he wants to also fly it AFTER the endorsement.

In that case flying the plane solo DOES often require additional stuff, yeah. I know one school around here has a complex that is dual only. Such a waste.

Well, that’s standard anywhere. If you’re flying the airplane dual with a CFI, than you don’t need the endorsement. If you’re flying solo and you DON’T have the endorsement, you can bet your shirt tail that any insurance company will NOT pay the claim if an accident occurs.

 

[Caramon13]

Well, that’s standard anywhere. If you’re flying the airplane dual with a CFI, than you don’t need the endorsement. If you’re flying solo and you DON’T have the endorsement, you can bet your shirt tail that any insurance company will NOT pay the claim if an accident occurs.

Well, the endorsement is only one thing that you need to fly solo in a complex plane, no? Along with (of course) any stipulations by the FBO which MAY or MAY NOT be related to insurance.

I guess my point is putting a flat "10 hours to satisfy insurance" has nothing to do with the endorsement itself, at all. It only MIGHT have to do with the FBO or school you are renting from AFTER you get endorsed for a complex plane. Those requirements may or may not be due to insurance.

What if the FBO is renting a plane whose owner doesn't want anyone in it without a CFI? That's not an insurance request, that's the owner's request. Or maybe they want someone with a minimum of 200 hours type in type, or TT because it's expensive, whereas the insurance company would be fine with someone flying it after a couple hours checkout.

After you get your endorsement, I would shop around for other options if one school is overly protective.

 

[Ravioli]

Why does insurance matter? If it's a rental who cares?

The replies, including @Ryanb's pointed to the fact there is NO guideline from the FAA for time to complete the endorsement, but that there are minimums from the insurance carriers. 5-10 is typical.

 

[Bill]

Well, that’s standard anywhere. If you’re flying the airplane dual with a CFI, than you don’t need the endorsement. If you’re flying solo and you DON’T have the endorsement, you can bet your shirt tail that any insurance company will NOT pay the claim if an accident occurs.

The owner of the plane will get paid, the question is who will be subrogated against by the owners insurance co. That is why it would be good to look at your renters insurance (you do carry renters insurance, right?) and be sure whatever complex requirements they might have are met before you rent and fly complex solo.

 

[crash7]

I'm more concerned about the "RPM must be higher then manifold pressure" maneuver.
RPM high to for take-off and landing; while manifold must decrease for descent, etc.
This is new concept for me; what tips do pilots use to remember?

As others have pointed out, the OWT of “oversquaring” MP/RPM is just that. OWT. Our 182 had POH entries for 23” and 2200 RPM. All. Day. Long. Our PA32 has entries up to 24.5” and 2200 RPM.

Want to level off and reduce power? Start with throttle. Pull that back, then pull back RPM, then pull back mixture.

Want to climb? Start with mixture. Push that in (density altitude appropriate), then push in RPM (downshift), then push in throttle.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Clip4]

I'm more concerned about the "RPM must be higher then manifold pressure" maneuver.
RPM high to for take-off and landing; while manifold must decrease for descent, etc.
This is new concept for me; what tips do pilots use to remember?

Not always. You will find power setting over square in the performance section of the POH. Just remember this, when adding power mixture ,prop power. When reducing power, prop, mixture.

when the manifold pressure is below the green arc, use the tac for power as the governor is no longer working at low power.

 

[danhagan]

Especially this: RPM must be higher then manifold pressure. Has anyone did the opposite? What happened to the plane?

It disintegrated in mid air, right beneath me ... one minute the plane was there, the next I was sitting on a seat cushion only, with no parachute. Luckily, I had spent most of my free time in "Hangar Talk" and not in these other useless areas Quick thinking and jumping UP right before reaching the ground solved everything ... no leaning forward, no memory items only, check lists gone ... it was a TRUE miracle

Actually, you should be able to diagram EXACTLY how the governor operates (the plane not your state) ...

In reality, IN for take off and landing and pulled back for desired HP/speed (like 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears in a car). After agonizing for months, you'll settle in at about 23 squared in cruise ... then you'll start farting around with the red knob After that you'll develop a "cruise climb" setting just to keep from getting bored and not be running 2600+ RPM from take off to TOC.

 

[FastEddieB]

..and is in the same vein of "lugging" your engine, IE, gunning your car without shifting to a higher gear.

You meant “lower gear” I assume.

 

[Tantalum]

You meant “lower gear” I assume.

Yes.. thanks

 

[idahoflier]

Don't over think it. The endorsement will take as long as your CFI thinks it should or until you fulfill a prescribed policy (club or FBO). If you get the endorsement after one ride but don't feel confident, get some more dual until you feel confident. When I did my complex it was a make/model checkout and one ride.

 

[Caramon13]

For the prop question you can think of it as a mountain bike. Low pitch = high gear (eg. 5 on a bike), high pitch = low gear (eg. 1 on a bike).

When you takeoff you want high pitch (low gear) to get the highest amount of RPM with the least amount of effort. As a comparison, try starting from a stop on a bike on gear 5, it takes a LOT of effort and a LOT longer to get to the right speed. Once you get going, you lower the pitch (think shifting into higher gear on a bike) because you don't need as much power to keep going as you did to GET going. The lower pitch (or higher gear) is more effective. Takes a lot less to pedal in high gear on a bike and you just maintain that speed easier, less effort.

Ever go really fast on a bike in high gear and then switch to a 1? Your feet run away. But if you slow down first and downshift you (or your engine) doesn't overrun.

So using a bike as an example, the throttle is you, the gear is the prop pitch. High pitch full throttle to get going all the way up to cruise. Keep throttle constant (25 MP) (just like on a bike) and bring the pitch back (or on a bike you down shift). Once you get into a rhythm (or altitude), pitch comes back to what is comfortable and you keep throttle going to maintain speed, remember you are the engine.

When you start wanting to slow down, you bring the throttle back first (stop pedaling as fast, apply brakes) and you increase pitch after that (up shift).

That's how I remember it at least. Probably explained it poorly but there you go.

 

[RyanB]

The owner of the plane will get paid, the question is who will be subrogated against by the owners insurance co. That is why it would be good to look at your renters insurance (you do carry renters insurance, right?) and be sure whatever complex requirements they might have are met before you rent and fly complex solo.

That’s a fair point. Subrogation at least requires fault. In some cases fault is easy to prove, in others not so much. If you think about fault as a sliding scale, the less it looks like fault, the more difficult it is to prove, and the less likely it will be that an insurer will seek subrogation. How the insurance company would determine fault in that case, I dunno.

So, I’d agree, best to take a look at your rental agreement and go from there. Still, the insurance company will look for any possible reason as to why they shouldn’t pay the claim. After my deer mishap, they wanted all records pertaining to my flight experience (ie., type of experience, last BFR, medical etc., you name it.) so flying a complex airplane around without having the proper endorsement to do so, would be a pretty big red flag with the insurance company.

Play the game right or don’t play it at all - my 2c

 

[Caramon13]

That’s a fair point. Subrogation at least requires fault. In some cases fault is easy to prove, in others not so much. If you think about fault as a sliding scale, the less it looks like fault, the more difficult it is to prove, and the less likely it will be that an insurer will seek subrogation. How the insurance company would determine fault in that case, I dunno.

So, I’d agree, best to take a look at your rental agreement and go from there. Still, the insurance company will look for any possible reason as to why they shouldn’t pay the claim. After my deer mishap, they wanted all records pertaining to my flight experience (ie., type of experience, last BFR, medical etc., you name it.) so flying a complex airplane around without having the proper endorsement to do so, would be a pretty big red flag with the insurance company.

Play the game right or don’t play it at all - my 2c

Dude, next time get the deer clause on your insurance.

 

[Bill Greenwood]

I think there is a better way to think about it than GUMPS. First of all, I don't want to switch fuel tanks on downwind, what happens if it dies and you are at 800 ft and I don't want to be head down in the pattern looking for the fuel handle, which sometimes is below you legs. I switch to the fullest tank when I descend toward the pattern.
But most of all the pattern is the place to make sure the gear is down, if you haven't already lowered it. And that focus needs to be on the GEAR AND THE GREEN LIGHTS, not other monkey mess like pitot heat or even fuel pump.
As for prop don't worry so much about it, push it forward before you push the throttle up, never lead going forward with the throttle.

 

[FastEddieB]

For the prop question you can think of it as a mountain bike. Low pitch = high gear (eg. 5 on a bike), high pitch = low gear (eg. 1 on a bike).

When you takeoff you want high pitch (low gear) to get the highest amount of RPM with the least amount of effort.

Boy that all seems backwards to me. For instance, on takeoff I really don’t think you want high pitch.

As an aside, some confusion can result from terminology. For instance, on rear differentials a lower gear has a higher numerical number, since it takes more revolutions of the driveshaft to turn the axle once. A 4.40 is “lower” than a 3.70, for instance. But regardless, the way you’re expressing it is very confusing.

 

[Lowflynjack]

Get the aircraft dirtied up and ready for the landing before you hit the downwind. Most complex aircraft have to be slowed down considerably to reply the gear, don't know if that's the case for a retractable Skyhawk. Still, best to get the gear down and flaps put in before you hit a busy and distracting landing pattern.

Get the dear down

Is this so the wife doesn't see her in the plane with you? I really like this and will add it to my checklist.

 

[AggieMike88]

Hmmm... my flight school said 4 hours should get me the endorsement.
Do I need to ask for 10 hours for insurance purpose?

Since you are working with a flight school, you will be following what they say you need to be safe and competent in the aircraft.

If they say 4 or 5 hours and you're able to earn the sign offs, then it's that amount of time.

10 and sometimes 15 hours for insurance is more often associated with non-flight school environments such as a pilot purchasing a new to them aircraft. Or someone who joins a flying club and the club rules and operating documents ask for that amount of time.

 

[steingar]

The biggest issue with the complex endorsement is the aircraft tend to move quite a bit more quickly than trainers and are a bit busier on takeoff. Honestly, I think getting the complex endorsement in a Skyhawk is a bit of a waste. You don't need hours of training to learn how to lower the gear.

 

[FastEddieB]

You don't need hours of training to learn how to lower the gear.

As many of the above posts indicate, the controllable propeller may take the larger portion of the training.

 

[Bill Greenwood]

Caramon is saying part of it backwards, though his bike example is otherwise good.
For takeoff you want a flatter prop, less bite on the air which allows the engine to develop full rpm and power. So low pitch, that is low bite, and high rpm, which is equivalent in starting off up a hill on a bike. This is prop control fully forward.
In cruise after you reduce throttle, you can reduce rpms by pulling the prop control back partly. This makes the prop more of an angle and more of a bite on the air each revolution.

When landing you again move prop control forward, so that on short final if not before you have prop control fully forward which gives some braking effect on touchdown with engine at idle and ready for power to be added if you have to go around.

 

[brien23]

Piper had a good idea with the Arrow the landing gear would go down by itself with speed and throttle position. Pilots had a hard time with it taking off and not using the overide to raise the gear when slow and CFI did not like slow flight that the gear came down by itself. It was a good idea and the insurance companies loved it at first then hated it due to the pilots.

 

[midlifeflyer]

As many of the above posts indicate, the controllable propeller may take the larger portion of the training.

People make that prop so much more complicated than necessary.

 

[bluesky74656]

Guys, you’re forgetting it’s a rental. Just leave the throttle and prop all the way in until you’re ready to slow down and land. The constant speed prop will adjust the pitch to avoid over speeding. The only thing you’ll have to learn is how to adjust the mixture to make sure you’re making Full Rental Power.

 

[MauleSkinner]

As many of the above posts indicate, the controllable propeller may take the larger portion of the training.

Learning the gear system and it’s alternate/emergency procedures properly takes a little more as well.