Compensation for services rendered?

[dkneisler]

This question has probably been asked and answered on the other board, so forgive me if I missed this before.

My wife would like me to auction off a flight in my plane... the proceeds will go to purchase items that will be sent to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm a Commercial Pilot. I will see no compensation at all for this proposed flight, however, from the passenger's point of view he/she will have paid for the privilege of the flight.

Bust, or no?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

David

 

[poadeleted3]

It can be done. I can't remember the reg with the requirements for charitable flights off the top of my head, but there are a couple requirements you need to meet that sound easy enough to me. IIRC, you need to notify the FSDO 7 days in advance of the flight, and you need a urine testing program. I do believe the urine test is waived for AOPA and EAA members, but won't swear to it.

 

[BruceAir]

See: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24500&postcount=2

 

[gismo]

This question has probably been asked and answered on the other board, so forgive me if I missed this before.

My wife would like me to auction off a flight in my plane... the proceeds will go to purchase items that will be sent to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm a Commercial Pilot. I will see no compensation at all for this proposed flight, however, from the passenger's point of view he/she will have paid for the privilege of the flight.

Bust, or no?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

David

From an article written by John Yodice:

The sponsoring organization must be a tax-exempt organization recognized by the Internal Revenue Service. The FAA must be notified seven days before the flight and must approve the airport. The pilot must have logged at least 200 hours of flight time. The aircraft must have a standard category airworthiness certificate and a current 100-hour inspection. And the flight must be made under VFR during the day; no aerobatic or formation flying is permitted.

IIRC you must also have a drug testing program for the pilots, but I think AOPA has a waiver for it's members.

 

[poadeleted20]

IIRC you must also have a drug testing program for the pilots, but I think AOPA has a waiver for it's members.

Lance is correct. Be sure to put your AOPA membership number in your 7-day-prior letter to the FSDO. Just remember that you have to send ALL the money (no deductions for any of your expenses) to an IRS-registered charitable organization which must be named in the letter -- you can't do the buying/shipping part on your own.

The fact that you are a Commercial Pilot would enable you to make the flight as a commercial operator as long as you comply with the FAR 119.1(e)(2) 25 sm sightseeing rules, but that would still be a commercial operation and your standard "pleasure and business" insurance policy would not cover it. In addition, you'd need a current 100-hour inspection per 91.409. And you'd need a 135.243-compliant drug testing program. Therefore, it's better to spend the money on the stamp and do it under 61.113(d).

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Lance is correct. Be sure to put your AOPA membership number in your 7-day-prior letter to the FSDO. Just remember that you have to send ALL the money (no deductions for any of your expenses) to an IRS-registered charitable organization which must be named in the letter -- you can't do the buying/shipping part on your own.

The fact that you are a Commercial Pilot would enable you to make the flight as a commercial operator as long as you comply with the FAR 119.1(e)(2) 25 sm sightseeing rules, but that would still be a commercial operation and your standard "pleasure and business" insurance policy would not cover it. In addition, you'd need a current 100-hour inspection per 91.409. And you'd need a 135.243-compliant drug testing program. Therefore, it's better to spend the money on the stamp and do it under 61.113(d).

Along these lines,
CFIs could give away logged flight lessons, for any reason or charity ?

 

[gismo]

Along these lines,
CFIs could give away logged flight lessons, for any reason or charity ?

Any pilot can give away anything he wants as long as the recipient doesn't pay anything for it to anybody. If you were wondering whether a CFI could offer flight lessons (including the airplane costs) in return for the student making a donation to charity, then I believe the same rules apply as already discussed. OTOH if the student pays for the airplane and the CFI donates only his time, then I think the student could donate whatever to whomever without any additional requirements for the CFI since he's already legal to accept payment for training.

 

[poadeleted20]

OTOH if the student pays for the airplane and the CFI donates only his time, then I think the student could donate whatever to whomever without any additional requirements for the CFI since he's already legal to accept payment for training.

Careful with this one, as it's close to a ploy used to beat 135 rules. If the training isn't bona fide (i.e., in an aircraft and of a type appropriate to the student's current training status), the FAA will nail the instructor for taking money on this type of ride.

 

[gibbons]

The fact that you are a Commercial Pilot would enable you to make the flight as a commercial operator as long as you comply with the FAR 119.1(e)(2) 25 sm sightseeing rules, but that would still be a commercial operation and your standard "pleasure and business" insurance policy would not cover it. In addition, you'd need a current 100-hour inspection per 91.409. And you'd need a 135.243-compliant drug testing program. Therefore, it's better to spend the money on the stamp and do it under 61.113(d).

Hmmmm. So here's my situation. I was asked last night if I would donate an aerobatic ride in the Extra to a 501(c)3 charity's silent auction. Whoever has the highest bid will get a ride in the Extra. I receive no compensation for my time or for the aircraft.

I can't do an aerobatic ride under 61.113. But I'm a commercial pilot, have the 100 hour inspection in the bag, and have insurance that will cover a charitable flight (but not a flight for hire). Obviously I don't have a drug testing program (Is 135.243 the correct reg? If so I missed the drug testing part.)

I'd like to do this but don't know exactly how to proceed. Should I simply contact the FSDO to get an opinion?

 

[gismo]

Careful with this one, as it's close to a ploy used to beat 135 rules. If the training isn't bona fide (i.e., in an aircraft and of a type appropriate to the student's current training status), the FAA will nail the instructor for taking money on this type of ride.

Yep, I was assuming that the "flight training" was real (BTW I didn't think the CFI was "taking money" for anything in the proposed example). It seem the violation would be the same whether the "student" paid the CFI or a charity for the cost of instruction.

 

[gismo]

Hmmmm. So here's my situation. I was asked last night if I would donate an aerobatic ride in the Extra to a 501(c)3 charity's silent auction. Whoever has the highest bid will get a ride in the Extra. I receive no compensation for my time or for the aircraft.

I can't do an aerobatic ride under 61.113. But I'm a commercial pilot, have the 100 hour inspection in the bag, and have insurance that will cover a charitable flight (but not a flight for hire). Obviously I don't have a drug testing program (Is 135.243 the correct reg? If so I missed the drug testing part.)

I'd like to do this but don't know exactly how to proceed. Should I simply contact the FSDO to get an opinion?

I'd also contact the insurer to be certain that coverage was in effect. There could be some tricky wording in the policy that limits coverage to "charitable flight" that meets the FAA's definition of same, IE no aerobatics.

 

[dkneisler]

Thanks all. This is not an official charitable organization.... just a group of good people trying to make a difference. The sad part is that I'd do this for free for anyone that just wanted to experience flight. But, it's not to be because of the auction..... as Bruce would say, "Sigh".

 

[bbchien]

Thanks all. This is not an official charitable organization.... just a group of good people trying to make a difference. The sad part is that I'd do this for free for anyone that just wanted to experience flight. But, it's not to be because of the auction..... as Bruce would say, "Sigh".

The donor to the organization needs to understand that you will conduct this flight only in DAY VFR. That's kinda hard to guarantee much more than a day or two in advance...but it can be done.

 

[One Short]

Thanks all. This is not an official charitable organization.... just a group of good people trying to make a difference. The sad part is that I'd do this for free for anyone that just wanted to experience flight. But, it's not to be because of the auction..... as Bruce would say, "Sigh".

How about auctioning off a "barf bag" and through in the flight for free?

Barb

 

[poadeleted20]

Hmmmm. So here's my situation. I was asked last night if I would donate an aerobatic ride in the Extra to a 501(c)3 charity's silent auction. Whoever has the highest bid will get a ride in the Extra. I receive no compensation for my time or for the aircraft.

I can't do an aerobatic ride under 61.113.

That's quite correct.

But I'm a commercial pilot, have the 100 hour inspection in the bag, and have insurance that will cover a charitable flight (but not a flight for hire).

Aye, there's the rub. That means you can't do a flight for hire without being financially unprotected, and (assuming you are a financially prudent person) that leaves only the 61.113(d) rule under which to operate.

Obviously I don't have a drug testing program

But if you're an AOPA or EAA member, you are exempt from that requirement for 61.113(d) flights. See the following for how to do the paperwork for this:

AOPA members: http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regcharitable.html
EAA members: http://www.eaa.org/chapters/resources/drugtest_exemptions.asp

(Is 135.243 the correct reg? If so I missed the drug testing part.)

That's what I get for quoting from memory -- it's 135.251, which is made applicable to the 119.1x(e)(2) 25 sm sightseeing flights by 135.1(a)(5).

I'd like to do this but don't know exactly how to proceed. Should I simply contact the FSDO to get an opinion?

You could, but I don't think that's necessary. Send the letter, do the auction, and fly the winner day VFR right side up.

 

[Bill]

You could, but I don't think that's necessary. Send the letter, do the auction, and fly the winner day VFR right side up.

OK, say Chip does this, and gives the winner a day VFR right side up. Say the winner enjoys this, and says (s)he would like to have an aerobatic ride. Chips says OK, lets go tommorrow. Can this flight be unconnected with winning the auction, IE, Chip just giving an aero ride to an interested passenger?

 

[poadeleted20]

OK, say Chip does this, and gives the winner a day VFR right side up. Say the winner enjoys this, and says (s)he would like to have an aerobatic ride. Chips says OK, lets go tommorrow. Can this flight be unconnected with winning the auction, IE, Chip just giving an aero ride to an interested passenger?

Sure, but he can't let the passenger pay for it unless he gets a 100-hour inspection and a drug-testing program, and, to protect himself, the right insurance coverage. To be honest, I don't know what regs those air combat outfits operate under, i.e., whether they have commercial operator certificates of some kind or not.

 

[gibbons]

Aye, there's the rub. That means you can't do a flight for hire without being financially unprotected, and (assuming you are a financially prudent person) that leaves only the 61.113(d) rule under which to operate.

Ron,

I understand your previous post except for the quote above. My insurance DOES cover me under the condition I'm providing a flight I've donated to charity. My agent and I have discussed this specifically and was told again this afternoon that if I do not accept money for the flight, that if the money goes to a charity, then I'm still covered. Unless I'm missing something in your quote then the insurance isn't an issue.

So, on the surface, it sounds like I can comply with either the AOPA or EAA drug testing exemptions then I don't have to conduct the flight under 61.113 and can go upside down. I mean, that's the whole point in the ride after all.

But wait! When you read the drug testing exemptions they both (AOPA and EAA) contain language prohibiting aerobatic or formation flights. Let's see, isn't EAA the parent organization for the IAC?

Anyway, it looks like the only way I can do this legally is to contact my FSDO and figure out what the drug testing program looks like. I have no idea what's involved or what the cost is, so my plan to give something to local charity might well get stuck down by the FAA. What a crock.

 

[poadeleted20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Levy

Aye, there's the rub. That means you can't do a flight for hire without being financially unprotected, and (assuming you are a financially prudent person) that leaves only the 61.113(d) rule under which to operate.

I understand your previous post except for the quote above. My insurance DOES cover me under the condition I'm providing a flight I've donated to charity.

But you can't donate an aerobatic flight to charity under 61.113(d), which is the rule under which you must operate for your insurance to be in force for a flight in which the passenger pays for the flight.

My agent and I have discussed this specifically and was told again this afternoon that if I do not accept money for the flight, that if the money goes to a charity, then I'm still covered. Unless I'm missing something in your quote then the insurance isn't an issue.

Insurance is an issue if you do an aerobatic flight, which is what I thought you were discussing at that point, since you'd have to be operating under Part 119 (i.e., a commercial operation) rather than 61.113(d) to do aerobatics.

So, on the surface, it sounds like I can comply with either the AOPA or EAA drug testing exemptions then I don't have to conduct the flight under 61.113 and can go upside down. I mean, that's the whole point in the ride after all.

No. The AOPA and EAA exemptions are ONLY for 61.113(d) flights, as you note...

But wait! When you read the drug testing exemptions they both (AOPA and EAA) contain language prohibiting aerobatic or formation flights.

Right -- no aerobatics or formation on charitable flights.

Let's see, isn't EAA the parent organization for the IAC?

That limitation wasn't their idea -- it was the FAA's.

Anyway, it looks like the only way I can do this legally is to contact my FSDO and figure out what the drug testing program looks like. I have no idea what's involved or what the cost is, so my plan to give something to local charity might well get stuck down by the FAA. What a crock.

If you want to give an aerobatic ride, yes, you'd have to work with the FAA for an appropriate waiver. And you would want something in writing from your insurer, since the verbal assurance of your agent is worthless, and the wording of your policy might not provide the coverage he's saying you have. But as long as you keep it right side up, day VFR, you can give the ride under 61.113(d).

 

[gibbons]

OK. My local 141 school and charter operator said they'd be happy to add me to their random drug testing program. Now "all" I need to do is get a statement from my insurance that I'm covered for a freebie aerobatic flight and an a-ok from the FSDO.

No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[gismo]

OK. My local 141 school and charter operator said they'd be happy to add me to their random drug testing program. Now "all" I need to do is get a statement from my insurance that I'm covered for a freebie aerobatic flight and an a-ok from the FSDO.

No good deed goes unpunished.

WRT the insurance you want a written statement from the underwriter (not the agent) that says your coverage would be in effect when giving an aerobatic ride to someone who has donated money to a (certified?) charity as long as no money passes to you. To make more likely that the insurer would give such a statement you might also want to add as many restrictions as you can live with (above 3000 AGL, in accordance with all FAR's, in a designated aerobatic practice area etc.).

BTW I think there's a requirement for an inspection within the last 100 hrs, but IIRC you recently went through an annual.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Careful with this one, as it's close to a ploy used to beat 135 rules. If the training isn't bona fide (i.e., in an aircraft and of a type appropriate to the student's current training status), the FAA will nail the instructor for taking money on this type of ride.

Horse manure. If someone walks into "Crazy Horse" owner and pays the going rate for 1 hour of flight time, then donates whatever he or she chooses to a charity for the flight instructor's time the FAA isn't going to care a hoot that the student has zero hours.

 

[poadeleted20]

Horse manure. If someone walks into "Crazy Horse" owner and pays the going rate for 1 hour of flight time, then donates whatever he or she chooses to a charity for the flight instructor's time the FAA isn't going to care a hoot that the student has zero hours.

OK -- I guess I misread what Lance was saying. I got the idea that we were talking about a a plane provided by the CFI at a set rate paid to the CFI by the student, with an additional donation to a charity. If the CFI collects one dime from the "student," then I'm pretty sure it's flight instruction for hire even if the CFI tries to separate the cost of the plane from the cost of his time. If the CFI and the airplane come from separate sources, then it's clearly OK, since the CFI is donating his time independently.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I got the idea that we were talking about a a plane provided by the CFI at a set rate paid to the CFI by the student, with an additional donation to a charity. If the CFI collects one dime from the "student," then I'm pretty sure it's flight instruction for hire even if the CFI tries to separate the cost of the plane from the cost of his time.

Your last post/comment regarded faux Part 135. How did the discussion diverge to faux flight instruction for hire?

 

[Henning]

Ron,

I understand your previous post except for the quote above. My insurance DOES cover me under the condition I'm providing a flight I've donated to charity. My agent and I have discussed this specifically and was told again this afternoon that if I do not accept money for the flight, that if the money goes to a charity, then I'm still covered. Unless I'm missing something in your quote then the insurance isn't an issue.

So, on the surface, it sounds like I can comply with either the AOPA or EAA drug testing exemptions then I don't have to conduct the flight under 61.113 and can go upside down. I mean, that's the whole point in the ride after all.

But wait! When you read the drug testing exemptions they both (AOPA and EAA) contain language prohibiting aerobatic or formation flights. Let's see, isn't EAA the parent organization for the IAC?

Anyway, it looks like the only way I can do this legally is to contact my FSDO and figure out what the drug testing program looks like. I have no idea what's involved or what the cost is, so my plan to give something to local charity might well get stuck down by the FAA. What a crock.

If this is a one off thing, go to an occupational health clinic and get a DOT drug screen done (2-3 days and usually $45) and go to the FSDO with that, they'll be good with it and probably bless the event.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

If this is a one off thing, go to an occupational health clinic and get a DOT drug screen done (2-3 days and usually $45) and go to the FSDO with that, they'll be good with it and probably bless the event.

YMMV, but probably need to do it the other way around. Contact the FSDO, let them request that you submit to a drug test (thereby making the scheduling of that test "random"), get the above drug test, the return to the FSDO clutching the report. I might be wrong, but most of the DOT programs don't accept results from tests scheduled by the potential drug user--to easy to abstain long enough to clear the system and then schedule the test. To avoid spending $$ for two tests I would call the FSDO first.

 

[Gary Sortor]

YMMV, but probably need to do it the other way around. Contact the FSDO, let them request that you submit to a drug test (thereby making the scheduling of that test "random"), get the above drug test, the return to the FSDO clutching the report. I might be wrong, but most of the DOT programs don't accept results from tests scheduled by the potential drug user--to easy to abstain long enough to clear the system and then schedule the test. To avoid spending $$ for two tests I would call the FSDO first.

You are absolutely right about tests scheduled by the donor, it doesn't suffice. That does not meet the "random" requirement. In addition, there's supposed to be a pre-assignment/pre-employment test. The idea of adding himself to a larger pool at a charter operation would be better, but questionable, since he's not employed there. There are many other requirements to be perfectly legal -- substance abuse training, including training on the collection process, an administrator for the program, an MRO (medical review officer) who reviews the lab results and certifies the results, a substance abuse professional, on and on. His best bet would be to deal directly with his charter operation friend's MRO and he or she can advise how to deal with this problem.