Comparison Shopping

Aztec Driver

Line Up and Wait
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Mar 7, 2005
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982
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Elizabethtown, PA
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Bryon
OK folks, here is where all of you need to chime in with your "real-time" performance and maintenance figures. I am doing some comparison shopping, and my partner and I, since we can't find a third partner, have decided on two different types of airplanes. He really wants a Mooney M20J, for its low operating costs. I have been looking at Twin Comanches, because I want speed, but also a little more weight and the possibilities of added features such as known ice.

What are the "real" performance figures on these aircraft? i.e. full cruise speed, fuel flow, etc.
The numbers I have been getting for these seem to be all over the board. So what can one reasonably expect to see in these aircraft?
What can one reasonably expect to pay for maintenance, on average, in a year's time?
Does the twinkie's age and AD's give it a lot more money for maintenance?


I really need to buy an aircraft, so I can stop shopping around and go fly. This is making my head swim.
 
Bryon did Forest ever call you.if not i'll tell him again
Dave
 
What are the "real" performance figures on these aircraft? i.e. full cruise speed, fuel flow, etc.
What can one reasonably expect to pay for maintenance, on average, in a year's time?
Bill and I are buying an M20J and will be taking delivery in January so I don't have any real world numbers for you. What we have been told by several Mooney M20J owners that you can expect to flight plan for 150 -160kts. This can vary due to the many speed mods that are available for the M20J. Fuel flow at cruise will probably be around 9.5GPH. I have been told if you have an Engine analyzer and gami injectors you can go LOP and get down to around 8.5 - 9GPH. We are going to budget around 2k for a squawk free annual. Depending on what part of the country you are based you will need to Corrosion X the tubes every year or every other year. We are planning on every other year since we are in the south. Engine overhaul should run around 17-20k. When shopping for a Mooney make sure you check when the tanks were re-sealed. A proper reseal job requires a complete removal of the old sealant and reapplication of new sealant. A good shop will charge about $3500 per tank!! Hope this helps. Good luck on your shopping.
 
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Bill and I are buying an M20J and will be taking delivery in January so I don't have any real world numbers for you. What we have been told by several Mooney M20J owners that you can expect to flight plan for 150 -160kts. This can vary due to the many speed mods that are available for the M20J. Fuel flow at cruise will probably be around 9.5GPH. I have been told if you have an Engine analyzer and gami injectors you can go LOP and get down to around 8.5 - 9GPH. We are going to budget around 2k for a squawk free annual. Depending on what part of the country you are based you will need to Corrosion X the tubes every year or every other year. We are planning on every other year since we are in the south. Engine overhaul should run around 17-20k. When shopping for a Mooney make sure you check when the tanks were re-sealed. A proper reseal job requires a complete removal of the old sealant and reapplication of new sealant. A good shop will charge about $3500 per tank!! Hope this helps. Good luck on your shopping.

For that speed you'll likely be a little over 10 gph unless your over 10,000'. Quite a few Lycomings will run LOP w/o gami injectors but you will want an engine monitor. I can run lop with my F but don't like giving up the 5 knots for the 1.5 gph. If SB 508B has been done (insulation replacement), I see no reason to corrosion treat that often. Keep the window sealed, hangar or cover and you shoule be good. $3500 is what I just paid to have my right tank done. Left is a bit less w/o the wing walk.

Enjoy your Mooney. I would love a 201 but the F was all I could do sole ownership.
 
Bill and I are buying an M20J and will be taking delivery in January so I don't have any real world numbers for you. What we have been told by several Mooney M20J owners that you can expect to flight plan for 150 -160kts. This can vary due to the many speed mods that are available for the M20J. Fuel flow at cruise will probably be around 9.5GPH. I have been told if you have an Engine analyzer and gami injectors you can go LOP and get down to around 8.5 - 9GPH. We are going to budget around 2k for a squawk free annual. Depending on what part of the country you are based you will need to Corrosion X the tubes every year or every other year. We are planning on every other year since we are in the south. Engine overhaul should run around 17-20k. When shopping for a Mooney make sure you check when the tanks were re-sealed. A proper reseal job requires a complete removal of the old sealant and reapplication of new sealant. A good shop will charge about $3500 per tank!! Hope this helps. Good luck on your shopping.
That is pretty much the information I have gathered for the Mooney. Not bad, especially considering the fuel flow. Anybody have any real world info on the twinkie they can give me? Is there any place on the web that has ACCURATE performance figures for aircraft. The last one I found puts all of the numbers very high.
 
If SB 508B has been done (insulation replacement), I see no reason to corrosion treat that often.

This one does have the insulation SB complied with, and the replacement insulation is the whisper quiet insulation package from MooneyMart. But, at $350-450 per corrosion-X treatment, having that done every other year is cheap insurance.

Enjoy your Mooney. I would love a 201 but the F was all I could do sole ownership.

Had I gone it alone, an F would have been where I would have to be.
 
I didn't know there was FIKI certification available for the Twin Comanche. In any event, based on my experience with another 160 HP twin, it will cost you half again an hour to run the TC as the Mooney including fuel, maintenance, and insurance.
 
One reason you get varying cruise numbers for the J is that Roy LoPresti designed it with a ram air inlet that adds about 1 inch of MP in cruise at altitude. Then an SB came out stipulating removal of the device. Some owners complied, others didn't. My J had it removed. I would cruise at 150-155 knots at 8000 feet and full throttle/2400 rpm, but I'd be getting something less than 24 inches there. That would burn 10 gph or maybe just a hair over. Also, some J owners have made the ill-advised switch to a 3 blade prop and found a cruise speed penalty that was somewhat higher than they'd expected.

I have heard people say running LOP in Lyc 4 bangers works but is rather rough, even with GAMIs. Never tried it myself, though.
 
I have heard people say running LOP in Lyc 4 bangers works but is rather rough, even with GAMIs. Never tried it myself, though.

The 4 bangers are rough either side of peak.:D But seriously, mine runs pretty much the same 20 LOP or 80 ROP w/o GAMIs.
 
One reason you get varying cruise numbers for the J is that Roy LoPresti designed it with a ram air inlet that adds about 1 inch of MP in cruise at altitude. Then an SB came out stipulating removal of the device.

Didn't that system just bypass the air filter for the 1 inch boost?
 
I didn't know there was FIKI certification available for the Twin Comanche. In any event, based on my experience with another 160 HP twin, it will cost you half again an hour to run the TC as the Mooney including fuel, maintenance, and insurance.
That's actually about what I was figuring. Although nobody seems to want to touch me with insurance since the Aztec bit the dust. Fortunately we did find one that is willing.
 
Didn't that system just bypass the air filter for the 1 inch boost?

And a lot more effective in the F than the J. Although LoPresti added it back in his new cowling. Improved of course.
 
And a lot more effective in the F than the J. Although LoPresti added it back in his new cowling. Improved of course.

So there's a 201 LoPresti cowling mod? Interesting.
 
That cowl sure looks nice, regardless of the speed enhancement. Maybe someday.
Curt LoPresti likes to joke about how they decided last year it was high time to put round inlets on the Mooney since they'd given them to just about all the other airplanes out there.
 
That's actually about what I was figuring. Although nobody seems to want to touch me with insurance since the Aztec bit the dust. Fortunately we did find one that is willing.

The NTSB ruled your probable cause as a loss of engine power due to undetermined reasons, no pilot error involved in any way. In fact, IMO excellent judgement and piloting exhibited to save people/property, and the insurance companies wont touch you? just because you have an accident on record? that really sucks, i guess i may be facing the same reality down the road...
 
Combination of bypassing the air filter and a straighter shot into the induction manifold.

It was a local low pressure area at the air intake that turned out to be the bypass, not the filter. IOW, when they redisgned the cowl for the M20J the 1" MP increase every previous model Mooney would enjoy with the ram air valve open pretty much disappeared on the M20J.
 
The NTSB ruled your probable cause as a loss of engine power due to undetermined reasons, no pilot error involved in any way. In fact, IMO excellent judgement and piloting exhibited to save people/property, and the insurance companies wont touch you? just because you have an accident on record? that really sucks, i guess i may be facing the same reality down the road...
Well, I did get two to quote me now. One at 7K and one at 4.4K. Not real cheap, but at least they will insure me. And to think the expensive one is our good ol' AOPA!

You guys have hijacked my thread! Let's get more comparison info on these birds going!

Is there any reason at all for a single owner pilot to buy it under a corporate entity? Won't any liabilities pierce right through the corporate veil if the problem involves the member of the corporation?

Anyone have any good recommendations of a legitimate and qualified title search company?
 
Well, so far it looks like the Twin Comanche is a go. Too bad my partner doesn't want to go along with me. Oh well, that's just all the more flying (and paying) for me. I guess we'll just hope that this plane doesn't take me too close to the poor farm. I get to go out there for final inspection and all the paperwork in 2 weeks. I hope I can get good at Twinkie landings in a short amount of time. Nothing at all like taking a relatively unknown plane with a non-standard panel IFR halfway across the country and practicing your landings enroute. Nothing like a real challenge.

Any last gotchas to look for?
 
Well, so far it looks like the Twin Comanche is a go. Too bad my partner doesn't want to go along with me. Oh well, that's just all the more flying (and paying) for me. I guess we'll just hope that this plane doesn't take me too close to the poor farm. I get to go out there for final inspection and all the paperwork in 2 weeks. I hope I can get good at Twinkie landings in a short amount of time. Nothing at all like taking a relatively unknown plane with a non-standard panel IFR halfway across the country and practicing your landings enroute. Nothing like a real challenge.

Bryon, that is great news. Well getting the Twinkie part. I can't imagine owning and operating a light twin. A single is plenty for me. Good luck!
 
Bryon, that is great news. Well getting the Twinkie part. I can't imagine owning and operating a light twin. A single is plenty for me. Good luck!

Yea, Anthony, but its a LIGHT twin. That makes it easier on the wallet, right?:rolleyes:
 
Well, so far it looks like the Twin Comanche is a go.

Congrats! Are you bringing it to Gaston's? I want a ride. :D :yes:

To answer the original question, there's a lot of variation among the Twinkies as well. There are a lot of speed mods available, and the A/B/C models had slightly different performance from the factory as well (IIRC the biggest difference was from A to B). I did fly a heavily modded A and saw 175 KTAS. I think an unmodified A is generally more toward the lower 160's.

What year? Equipment? Picutures?

Are you going to keep the shotgun panel? If not, have you considered this?

Have fun with the new bird!
 
Yea, Anthony, but its a LIGHT twin. That makes it easier on the wallet, right?:rolleyes:

Nope, it makes your wallet light.

BTW, a friend who's been flying a Twinkie for years told me recently that he found that trimming very nose down during the approach, it lands a lot smoother and consistently. He thinks that the stabilator runs out of downforce and tilting that big trim tab at the back of the stabilator acts like a flap and increases the stabilator's effectiveness. I assume this technique requires a hefty pull on the yoke during the flare.
 
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Congrats! Are you bringing it to Gaston's? I want a ride. :D :yes:

To answer the original question, there's a lot of variation among the Twinkies as well. There are a lot of speed mods available, and the A/B/C models had slightly different performance from the factory as well (IIRC the biggest difference was from A to B). I did fly a heavily modded A and saw 175 KTAS. I think an unmodified A is generally more toward the lower 160's.

What year? Equipment? Picutures?

Are you going to keep the shotgun panel? If not, have you considered this?

Have fun with the new bird!
1966. There is not much in the way of goodies in the panel as yet. That will have to be over time. If my partner decides he wants in on it, then we will fix it up just right. I will probably have the panel rearranged, but keep what is in it, unless it needs replaced. Then Iwill look for new goodies. Here are a few pictures. There are a few dents and dings in it. I will see in two weeks just how nice it really is. The prebuy and IFR recertification already turned up a bad transponder. So that is a bargaining point already.
 

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The NTSB ruled your probable cause as a loss of engine power due to undetermined reasons, no pilot error involved in any way. In fact, IMO excellent judgement and piloting exhibited to save people/property, and the insurance companies wont touch you? just because you have an accident on record? that really sucks, i guess i may be facing the same reality down the road...

Not to in any way infer, insinuate, state, or otherwise malign the fine flying job done by Bryon and Jared, but, FWIW, in an effort to understand the insurance companies' reaction, in reality the NTSB report actually left pilot error well within the relm of possibility, and, in fact, the reports probable cause conclusion slid the possible blame needle somewhat in the pilot(s) direction:

"A postaccident examination of the airplane by a Federal Aviation Administration inspector revealed no evidence of mechanical failure or malfunction."​

Hence the reason the insurance companies are a bit cautious.

IOW, the NTSB didn't do Bryon and Jared any favors.
 
Not to in any way infer, insinuate, state, or otherwise malign the fine flying job done by Bryon and Jared, but, FWIW, in an effort to understand the insurance companies' reaction, in reality the NTSB report actually left pilot error well within the realm of possibility, and, in fact, the reports probable cause conclusion slid the possible blame needle somewhat in the pilot(s) direction:

"A postaccident examination of the airplane by a Federal Aviation Administration inspector revealed no evidence of mechanical failure or malfunction."

Hence the reason the insurance companies are a bit cautious.

IOW, the NTSB didn't do Bryon and Jared any favors.

That is true, however, I can't put the blame on them. According to Mike, who owned the plane previously, it is a good possibility that the crossover exhaust pipe was cracked and pointing the hot gas towards the fuel line and causing a vapor lock. He said he had that happen on the takeoff roll twice previously. Those pipes have had to be repaired within the two years that I owned (part of) it. If that was, indeed, the case, the evidence would not be there when they looked, and since noone was hurt and nothing was damaged, they really didn't care too terribly much. I just have to deal with the insurance companies point of view.

Drop by sometime after the 20th Ed, It'll be down there.

The bungees were replaced last May, and were checked again at last annual. All gear AD's accomplished for now. All systems go for a Dec. 20th departure. I will get several hours instruction down there to get acquainted. Hopefully weather will cooperate. I don't feel up to hard IFR in the winter with an unknown plane.
 
Well,things are progressing smoothly so far. Prebuy came out OK. Nothing of anu importance. Had to have a battery and transponder replaced though. Title search came through fine. All the paperwork seems to be in order. All AD's up to date. All that is left is to do a little hocus pocus on getting his loan paid off at the time of sale, so I can get a lien release on the airplane before I take it home. Pray for great weather on the 19th and 20th.

I guess I will need to change my username to "Twinkie Driver".:D
And it also looks like my partner may join in after all.
 
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I am off to Kansas City early a.m. tomorrow. Hopefully everything will turn out OK. I'll keep you posted when I get back.

Gosh, my entire family is getting on my case about their "bad feelings" or "premonitions." They think this will be my last flight. Man, you have a friend who crashes with his whole family in a new to him plane on their first flight together, and then crash a plane on takeoff and everyone thinks the worst for you. Oh well, all the more reason to be careful out there.

What are good airspeeds for approach and landing for a twinkie? How about Vx, Vy, and Vmc? The more information I have before the several hours of training, the better.
 
Good luck Bryon. Don't listen to the background noise.
 
Got back from Kansas City today. 8043Y is now roosting around the Lancaster area until it finds it's permanent home. I learned a heck of a lot in this trip.

1. Do not rush things on purchasing a plane.
2. Do not rush things on purchasing a plane.
3. Did I mention not to rush things?

I arrived at the airport at around 11:00 a.m., at the exact time the previous owner got there. I looked the plane over, although not really thoroughly, like I should have. We took it up and practiced a little. The gear down indication light took a little time to come on, although the more it got used, the better it was. It always came on, but sometimes it waited until final to light. I put about two hours on it, trying to perfect my landings. Some aircraft really do take a lot of practice to master. I never really got perfect at them, but I got adequate.

Then came the first of many mistakes. Since there was a lot of bad weather moving in, I decided that, in order to have a chance of getting home without flying in IMC, I would have to leave immediately and fly to Indiana. Atr least i made the right choice in not flying IMC. Got all of the paperwork done and left for Bloomington, IN at around 3:00p.m. Well, it was a good 3 hour flight to there, making it a night approach and landing in an unfamiliar aircraft. approaching an unfamiliar airport, with unknown terrain and obstacles. Since I hadn't mastered the speed and approach with this airplane yet, I found myself too high and fast, so I asked the controller If I could do a 360 for altitude and speed control. She said I could just go to the opposite runway, but i stupidly remained fixated to a 360. I never did get the speed under control, and I lost my situational awareness when I lost sight of the airport in a sea of lights. As I came around, I saw the runway and lined up for it, reaching the runway at the right height, but too fast. Just before touching down, the controller says that "you appear to be lined up on 06, cleared to land 06." Damn, wrong runway! Oh well, a little late to change now, I land with way too much energy and bounce around a good bit, but manage to survive the encounter. The controller decides to "remind me that she had cleared me for 35, not 06. Bless her heart, all I could do was apologize for my error.

At least, today, after a reasonable night's sleep, and finally having something to eat, I was able to rise and finish the trip at my leisure in clear VMC.

In retropspect, I should have just come back on Southwest and picked up the plane another time. That would have allowed more time to check out the aircraft and logbooks, negotiate the squawks, verifythat all the finacial aspects are completed properly,and familiarize myself with the plane. The pressure these last two days was enormous. At least I was smart enough to know that IMC in possible icing conditions in an unknown airplane would probably be a recipe for another headline.

By the way, the FBO at BMG is absolutely the tops. They have a very nice apartment they rent out to pilots. The fuel is cheap, as well. The staff is friendly and helpful. All in all, a very nice place to visit.

At any rate, it is definetly Twinkie time. I trued out at around 160 knots on 15-16 gph on the way home. Now if i can just clean and wax it, get the radios the way I want them, put in a new autopilot,.........
 
Yoinks!! Quite a story. Another cautionary tale about flying unfamiliar aircraft/airports.

I hope your Twinkie is everything you hoped it would be. What a sweet looking aircraft!! Please continue with the updates as you upgrade it.
 
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