Comparison between SR22T and DA42 VI - Check my numbers

[labbadabba]

So... slow day at work allows me to daydream about planes I can never own. I've long been a fan of the Diamond aircraft, I love their simplicity and ease of flying. Most of all, I love the safety record of Diamond planes. Which got me to wondering, why is the SR22 the top dog when it comes to sales? Are there certified aircraft that are just as capable? Often I see the SR22 compared to G36s and Cessna 400s. But I don't think I see very many comparisons with the DA42. So I did a breakdown in terms of performance and operating costs. These by and large are book values and I recognize real-world comparisons may differ. Your thoughts?

Payload:
SR22T - G5
Useful Load: 1,260
Fuel Capacity: 94.5 gal
Full-Fuel Payload: 693

DA42 VI
Useful Load: 1,298
Fuel Capacity: 79.4 gal (JetA)
Full-Fuel Payload: 758

The Diamond gets the nod for payload (plus golf club storage up front), but the Cirrus has better range and can offload more fuel for payload if needed.

Cruise Performance:
SR22 - 100LL @ $4.85 per gal
DA42 VI - JetA @ $4.25 per gal

SR22 Max Ceiling: 25,000ft
DA42 Max Ceiling: 18,000ft (both single and twin engine)

Max Cruise:
SR22: 213kts (85% @25,000ft)
DA42: 190kts (90% @16,000ft)
SR22 Range w/ 1hr reserve: 887 nm
DA42 Range w/ 1hr reserve: 708 nm
SR22 Fuel Burn: 18.3
DA42 Fuel Burn: 16.8
SR22 Fuel Cost: $88.76
DA42 Fuel Cost: $71.40

Econ Cruise:
SR22 171kts (55% - 25,000)
DA42 152kts (60% @12,000ft)
SR22 Range w/ 1hr reserve: 1,100 nm
DA42 Range w/ 1hr reserve: 1,020 nm
SR22 Fuel Burn: 12.7
DA42 Fuel Burn: 10.3
SR22 Fuel Cost: $61.60
DA42 Fuel Cost: $43.78


This would be an easier comparison if we could see what the fuel burn is for an SR22 at 190kts. Close to 16gph? Either way, the SR22 has better speed and better range but DA42 seems at least on par with fuel burn. Given the price difference between JetA and 100LL the DA42 gets a tick in the plus column. If we're talking about $800,000 aircraft are we really going to care?

TBO:
SR22: 2,000 hours
TSIO-550 Overhaul cost: $39,000
Hourly Engine Reserve: $19.50
Hourly Prop Reserve: $6
BRS Parachute Reserve: $6
Maintenance Reserve: $30

DA42: 1,800 hours
AE300 170 Overhaul cost: x2 $44,000
Hourly Engine Reserve: $24.44
Hourly Prop Reserve: $12
Maintenance Reserve: $45

The nod on paper seems to point to the Cirrus however, when perusing thru listings for SR22s I sure do see a lot of planes with less than 2,000 hours with recently overhauled motors. Does the TSIO-550 typically have issues making it to TBO?

Assuming fixed costs are roughly the same (I estimate around $12,000 per year) the hourly costs are as follows:

SR22 Max Cruise - $150 per hour
DA42 Max Cruise - $153 per hour
SR22 Econ Cruise - $123 per hour
DA42 Econ Cruise - $125 per hour

Hourly costs are very similar based upon my fictional FBO fuel prices and shop rates. So the question for me boils down to: Is it more important to have 15 extra kts in speed and another 100nm in range or is it more important to have a second engine? Bear in mind that that the single engine ceiling for the DA42 is 18,000ft and it will continue to climb. Is that fear mitigated by the BRS?

Both aircraft are have iterations of the G1000 with GFC700 and envelope protection; they have the option for TKS, A/C, O2, etc as well. There are other factors as well such as cabin comforts, safety records, glide ratio, what the wife thinks...

Thoughts? How are my numbers?

 

[ktup-flyer]

Can I have a turboprop converted DA42?

 

[Rick Wallace]

I flew in a new cirrus last week. We got 175TAS at 18gph at 75% power 50 degrees rich of peak. I think your operating cost sound low. I think it should be closer to $250 an hour for both. I kinda think the da42 is a dog. 160 tas at 75% power is what i hear from the local flight school and I think they said 12000 was about the service ceiling in realty.

 

[RudyP]

Rick - your Cirrus numbers are unusual since few people fly them ROP. It may be ROP if it is brand new and in break - otherwise that is definitely doable in an NA if you do run ROP. But typical SR22 cruise figures are 170 KTAS at 13-15 gph (depending on altitude) LOP. That's how I always flew my previous SR22 NA plane.

The SR22T or TN is flown LOP around 15.5-17.5 gph for speed range of 185-200 KTAS (depending on altitude). Yes they will do 213 KTAS in the flight levels but most owners are reluctant to fly in the inhospitable environment of the FLs without pressurization. My standard cruis profile is 16,000-17,000 ft at ~16.5 gph doing 195-200 KTAS

 

[FastEddieB]

As an example of what's possible, my 2003 SR22 (NA) at 17,500':

161 ktas @ 9.3 gph. Pretty darn efficient up high!

 

[labbadabba]

I flew in a new cirrus last week. We got 175TAS at 18gph at 75% power 50 degrees rich of peak. I think your operating cost sound low. I think it should be closer to $250 an hour for both. I kinda think the da42 is a dog. 160 tas at 75% power is what i hear from the local flight school and I think they said 12000 was about the service ceiling in realty.

I'd be curious to know if those flight school DA42s are using Lycs or Turbo-Diesel motors, I think most flight schools are using normally aspirated Lycs. I know the older generation DA42 didn't have great performance numbers but the NG and VI models are significant upgrades.

 

[labbadabba]

As an example of what's possible, my 2003 SR22 (NA) at 17,500':

161 ktas @ 9.3 gph. Pretty darn efficient up high!

Wow, that's almost 20 statute miles per gallon. Better than my minivan, that's for sure.

 

[tuwood]

They're both great planes, so I don't think you'd go wrong either way. My wife and I personally put a lot of value in the chute on the Cirrus so that's why it's our choice, but others consider it just an unnecessary weight penalty.
Aren't these fun problems to have.

 

[weilke]

Full fuel payload is a meaningless number. It penalizes the aircraft with the larger tanks. Compare payload at a given distance, 300nm with NBAA reserves for example as that would reflect a reasonable trip length in a light aircraft.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Full fuel payload matters, especially if you always "top off", which a lot of pilots do.

 

[labbadabba]

I think your operating cost sound low. I think it should be closer to $250 an hour for both.

If you add in the fixed costs to an hourly reserve I think you get closer to that $250 per hour. I wanted to eliminate the fixed costs and just purely look at the operating cost since the fix costs would be roughly the same. As it were, the operating costs are nearly the same as well

 

[weilke]

Full fuel payload matters, especially if you always "top off", which a lot of pilots do.

Just because people tend to do something that is not smart doesn't mean we should cloud assessment of a plane with that meaningless number.

 

[RudyP]

Just because people tend to do something that is not smart doesn't mean we should cloud assessment of a plane with that meaningless number.

Exactly - people are able to adapt to changes... I used to be a 'top it off' every time kind of guy when I rented C172s and now I think about it depending on load and mission in my own SR22TN. It's not that complicated and it really did not take long to adapt. I'm very glad Cirrus did not put artificially small tanks in my plane to maximize the useless full fuel payload stat or it would be a crippled airplane.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Whether its "smart" or not depends. Extra fuel is safety. I usually want as much as I can get, especially when flying into bad weather or long distance between airports. Been to Alaska twice, Canada three times, almost every state in the USA. VFR and IFR. I don't like flying with less than 10 gallons in the tank, although Ive done it. Remember if you are low on fuel, slow down and lean to the max. My plane gets 4.5 gph at 90 knots at 35% power. That is 20 nautical mpg. The slower I go, the more mpg I get. Also the higher I fly the better mpg I get. Run at lowest rpm practical, turn the prop back if you have a constant speed prop.

Ive landed at airports and the fuel station was closed. Now what do I do? Ive had to divert because of weather. Now where do I go? If you have fuel, you stand better chance of getting there safely.

Planes dont fly very well out of gas and running out of it is the number one cause of forced off field landings.

It does help to have tanks "right sized" for you and your type of flying. I have 5 hours with 1 hour of reserve. I also have the payload to carry it. So thats right sized for me. 7 hours with 1 hour of reserve, I dont need that much. It also depends on where you fly, if you fly where there are LOTS of airports and in good weather, you have more diversion options. But even then, things happen.

 

[RudyP]

How are you reading that Weilke and I are suggesting cutting it close on fuel??? I like to have just as healthy reserves as you do but I also like having a plane that can take me and my girlfriend 900NM+ with healthy reserves or me and 3 guys 400NM+ with healthy reserves. What I don't want is some stupidly optimized plane with tiny tanks where only the second mission is possible.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Nobody here is stupid. Suggest you stop saying that...

 

[weilke]

Whether its "smart" or not depends.

Exactly. 'It depends'.

On a 1hr trip you are not one bit safer by carrying 6hrs worth of fuel vs carrying 3hrs. On a 2.5hr trip you are safer with the extra reserve. As a metric to compare two aircraft it is a meaningless metric.

 

[Katamarino]

To me it's all about the fuel type. With the DA42 I can fly anywhere in the world and not worry about AVGAS. Once you get oustide of North America the fuel cost and availability is heavily biased in favour of Jet-A.

 

[weilke]

To me it's all about the fuel type. With the DA42 I can fly anywhere in the world and not worry about AVGAS. Once you get oustide of North America the fuel cost and availability is heavily biased in favour of Jet-A.

How is the worldwide availability of a Austro trained technician if the computerized fuel control unit gives you a 'locked' light (just like my friends kenmore microwave yesterday)?

 

[RudyP]

Nobody here is stupid. Suggest you stop saying that...

I'm not calling anyone stupid - I said my plane would be stupidly optimized if it had, say, 35 gallon tanks so that Cirrus marketing could claim 1000 lbs full fuel payload. I think that would be a poor decision and I'm glad my tanks hold 92 gallons and give me flexibility. Apologies if you thought I was calling you stupid, I 100% do not think you are stupid.

 

[labbadabba]

For what it's worth, I posted the Useful Load and the Full-Fuel Useful Load numbers with the assumption that the values could be interpolated to fit various missions. As such, the DA42 has much smaller tanks but does not suffer significant reduction in range compared to the SR22. The SR22 does have more wiggle room to offload fuel for payload if needed as I noted in my initial write-up.

 

[peppy]

Put in the same amount of fuel and the Cirrus carries more. On comfort I suggest you do a two hour trip to test. I love the Diamond but find the DA40 seating uncomfortable. My fuel flow numbers are similar to Fast Eddie's. For the older TN planes fuel burn is pretty much 17 GPH with top cruise varying with altitude. I don't know the numbers for the newer turbos.

As stated, most turbos are flown below 18K' so you don't have to use a full mask. A cannula is more comfortable.

 

[weilke]

I'm not calling anyone stupid - I said my plane would be stupidly optimized if it had, say, 35 gallon tanks so that Cirrus marketing could claim 1000 lbs full fuel payload.

By the 'always full thanks' theory, the Cirrus with 60gal tanks would be so much better :rolleye:

 

[Katamarino]

How is the worldwide availability of a Austro trained technician if the computerized fuel control unit gives you a 'locked' light (just like my friends kenmore microwave yesterday)?

Much cheaper to fly a technician out if needed than pay for typical AVGAS rates. Been there, done it.

 

[Maciej]

I think they said 12000 was about the service ceiling in realty.

No shot on that, I fly at 11,500' in my little 125hp Diamond DA20 regularly, gets there no problem, the DA42 can definitely get up to at least 16k-17k no problem.

 

[Rick Wallace]

Rick - your Cirrus numbers are unusual since few people fly them ROP. It may be ROP if it is brand new and in break - otherwise that is definitely doable in an NA if you do run ROP. But typical SR22 cruise figures are 170 KTAS at 13-15 gph (depending on altitude) LOP. That's how I always flew my previous SR22 NA plane.

The SR22T or TN is flown LOP around 15.5-17.5 gph for speed range of 185-200 KTAS (depending on altitude). Yes they will do 213 KTAS in the flight levels but most owners are reluctant to fly in the inhospitable environment of the FLs without pressurization. My standard cruis profile is 16,000-17,000 ft at ~16.5 gph doing 195-200 KTAS

My friend that has the SR22 noticed several SR22s that don't make TBO on controller. I have noticeed this as well. His opinion is that flying a Cirri at LOP is one of the reasons they need engine work before TBO.

When researching getting my mulit-engine rating, I was baffled why a DA42 diesel was more expensive to rent than an avgas twin. I think these da42s have more maintenance than Folks are letting on.

And keep in mind the new cirri seats 5.

 

[weilke]

And keep in mind the new cirri seats 5.

Only if three of them are skinny and light, those three-seat setups are really for kids (kids that dont fight).

 

[Rick Wallace]

No shot on that, I fly at 11,500' in my little 125hp Diamond DA20 regularly, gets there no problem, the DA42 can definitely get up to at least 16k-17k no problem.

I owned a da20 with a composite prop that got 130-135 tas, and now own 2 da40s. I like diamond's aircraft, but the da42 is a dog. The A-n-Ps that service 10 da42s said there is no point flying above 12k with a 42, performance does not increase.

 

[Rick Wallace]

Only if three of them are skinny and light, those three-seat setups are really for kids (kids that dont fight).

True. Except for your point that (kids that don't fight). That is why the crew button is there!

 

[FastEddieB]

His opinion is that flying a Cirri at LOP is one of the reasons they need engine work before TBO.

Physics tells us that operating well lean of peak results in lower combustion chamber pressures and lower CHT's. I'd be curious as to his reasoning - but I suspect its flawed on several levels.

 

[Rick Wallace]

Physics tells us that operating well lean of peak results in lower combustion chamber pressures and lower CHT's. I'd be curious as to his reasoning - but I suspect its flawed on several levels.

In perfect scenarios every time LOP is fine. ROP is a bit conservative, but how many of us have not adjusted the mixture descending or climbing. I know I have. Its not worth damaging a 50k engine and potentially the sales value of a 700k plane IMO.

 

[Maciej]

I owned a da20 with a composite prop that got 130-135 tas, and now own 2 da40s. I like diamond's aircraft, but the da42 is a dog. The A-n-Ps that service 10 da42s said there is no point flying above 12k with a 42, performance does not increase.

That's a shame, had higher expectations for it.

 

[labbadabba]

That's a shame, had higher expectations for it.

I owned a da20 with a composite prop that got 130-135 tas, and now own 2 da40s. I like diamond's aircraft, but the da42 is a dog. The A-n-Ps that service 10 da42s said there is no point flying above 12k with a 42, performance does not increase.

Do you know if they were talking about Lycs or the Austros? I would think the the turbo diesels would do better in the mid-teens. Certainly better than a normally aspirated Lyc.

 

[Maciej]

One of my acquaintances is planning on picking up a DA42NG, as soon as he gets it I'll be on a mission to see how high it can go.

 

[labbadabba]

@Monpilot

Here is the comparison I did between the latest SR22 and the latest DA42.

 

[weilke]

As this thread just popped up, I had to re-read it. I just noticed that 39k as an overhaul cost on a TSIO550K is a bit optimistic. The list price for a 'rebuilt' engine from Conti is $77,722. A factory overhaul would be maybe 5k less. Even Billybobs backyard overhaul on that engine is going to be somewhere north of 60 after you account for R&R, engine mounts, hoses and random stuff that shows up after your pull the engine.

The same probably holds true for overhaul/exchanges on the Austro diesels, except that you are looking at a single source situation.

 

[wayne]

Rick - your Cirrus numbers are unusual since few people fly them ROP. It may be ROP if it is brand new and in break - otherwise that is definitely doable in an NA if you do run ROP. But typical SR22 cruise figures are 170 KTAS at 13-15 gph (depending on altitude) LOP. That's how I always flew my previous SR22 NA plane.

The SR22T or TN is flown LOP around 15.5-17.5 gph for speed range of 185-200 KTAS (depending on altitude). Yes they will do 213 KTAS in the flight levels but most owners are reluctant to fly in the inhospitable environment of the FLs without pressurization. My standard cruis profile is 16,000-17,000 ft at ~16.5 gph doing 195-200 KTAS

People fly ROP in a SR22?

I flew a SR22 (NA) for 4+ years and got 170 knots TAS at 12-12.5 gph. Sometime less if I got up to 11k or 12k.

 

[wayne]

My friend that has the SR22 noticed several SR22s that don't make TBO on controller. I have noticeed this as well. His opinion is that flying a Cirri at LOP is one of the reasons they need engine work before TBO.

When researching getting my mulit-engine rating, I was baffled why a DA42 diesel was more expensive to rent than an avgas twin. I think these da42s have more maintenance than Folks are letting on.

And keep in mind the new cirri seats 5.

I see some that were rebuilt before 2,000 hrs, but not many. The one I was flying made it to 2,400 hrs before the owner was told it needed to be rebuilt. Don't remember the exact issue as the owner had moved 6 months or so before that. Prior to that the compressions and oil analysis reports were great.

We always ran it LOP in cruise.

 

[mulligan]

Please start this thread over, except rename it to "Someone offers you a 2016 SR22T or DA62 for $1, which do you take?"

 

[FloridaPilot]

Please start this thread over, except rename it to "Someone offers you a 2016 SR22T or DA62 for $1, which do you take?"

Geez that is what I was going to say!!!