Comparing two planes...

[ssonixx]

I did it again. Started flipping through Trade-a-plane and start dreaming of other birds. Ugh. I need to get off their mailing list.

So, as I started to dream of buying other planes, I came up with some questions that I couldn't answer. I don't have much exp with buying aircraft and thought I'd ask and see what folks thought.

1) Two aircraft exactly the same, including manufacture date and price, the only exception is TT, one high time with an overhaul and another on the original engine. Aircraft A has 2100TT airframe hours and had a recent factory REBUILT and 150 hours on the new engine. Compressions are low to high 70s. Aircraft B has 1300 hours and has had a cylinder repaired previously. Other than that, seems like it runs strong with compressions in the low to mid 60s. What is the better aircraft?

2) Aircraft had a prop strike back in the day. Since then, prop has been replaced (replaced and not overhauled) and a rebuilt engine installed (engine has new history). Does the prop strike even matter anymore?

3) Same question as #2, but instead of a rebuilt engine, it was a field overhauled engine so history is in tact.

4) A new paint job (say $12k) or new avionics installed (say $12k). All else being equal, what is worth more on the resale market?

Thanks.

 

[MN_Flyer]

As someone who has sold a plane and been involved in the purchase of two this year, I can tell you my thought process on these questions. Others may have different opinions.

I don't think that engine time is as important the history. Look at the books and make sure the low time plane hasn't been sitting for the past ten years collecting rust. Depending on the engine, you will probably spend at least $25K on a field overhaul and install with hoses, fuel lines, etc. Do the math on any plane that you are looking at. Assuming a 2000 hour TBO, just calculate $13 an hour into the value of the plane.

Another note on overhauls. If the price is right, you might consider buying a high time engine and performing the overhaul yourself. When you buy a plane with an overhauled engine, you have no control over the work that has been done. If the price is right, then you can decide which shop you would like to overhaul your engine and make the decisions based on your budget and comfort level.

I don't think I would hesitate to buy a plane with a past prop strike, but I would want to look at the airframe log to see if any other work was completed at the same time such as wing repairs, nose gear doors, or anything that would indicate more severe airframe damage. One thing to consider would be resale value. If the plane has suffered a gear-up accident or more major incident, you might pay less to buy it, but you will also get less when you sell it. As for the prop itself, it is quite possible that the plane will have the same hub that was involved in the strike. It will have been inspected by a prop shop and serviced as needed. They can even reuse blades in some cases if the damage was just a bent tip or a minor chip.

If paint is important to you, it is easier to buy a plane with fresh paint than go through the lengthy process of doing this yourself, although you won't be able to chose the scheme. As far as appearance goes, for a few thousand dollars, you can install your own Airtex interior and change the whole appearance of your plane. Don't let torn seats or ugly carpet in an online listing deter you from looking into a plane if everything else makes the plane a good match for you.

Avionics can be very expensive to purchase and install. If you find a plane that is equipped with the avionics that you are looking for, you will save a ton of money. Let the previous owner pay for your new stack. And autopilots are almost not even worth installing yourself, so buy a plane that already has what you are looking for if the autopilot is important to you.

Just my opinion. Good luck in your search.

 

[ssonixx]

MN_F, thanks for the opinion. So to clarify your TBO calc, I would add $13/h to TBO and the subtract overhaul cost to get to equivalent value. Is that right?

So (plane A price + $13 * 700 hours - $25k to $30k) = comparable value to plane price B?

Thank you.


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[Henning]

Prop strike on the rebuild is irrelevant, prop strike on the overhaul depends on what the crank shop report on the crank says, it doesn't have to be perfect to be usable, I want to know how imperfect it is.

 

[N747JB]

If A. Has 2100 hours with 150 on a rebuilt or re manufactured engine and B. Has 1300 TT airframe and engine, I would think all else being equal I'd prefer A.
Of course it's very seldom that two planes are exactly alike.
As for paint and avionics, they are more expensive to install than they are to buy already on the plane you want. Good paint jobs are expensive, cheap ones are too. For the avionics are they what you would install? An older non-WAAS GPS is of marginal value to me, on the other hand if you are looking for the latest and greatest Garmin stack and plan on installing it anyway, buy it already in the panel.
Buying an airplane that has 90% of what you want is the key, if you need to do the paint or interior or avionics or engine or glass, that's fine. If it needs more than one of the above, you are getting a project that will cost you more than paying a little more and getting one already like you want it.

 

[ssonixx]

Thanks for responses.

So, on the prop strike with rebuilt, got it. Not an issue. If overhauled, do some research. Roger. Got it.

On the paint vs avionics, assuming bird A had an avionics upgrade that would cost $12k to do myself vs bird B but bird B has a paint job. Which is preferred? No difference?



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[Greg Bockelman]

On the paint vs avionics, assuming bird A had an avionics upgrade that would cost $12k to do myself vs bird B but bird B has a paint job. Which is preferred? No difference?

All other things being equal, I think I would prefer having a nice avionics package over a nice paint job.

 

[kgruber]

Neither.

Buy one already done to your desires.

 

[Henning]

If A. Has 2100 hours with 150 on a rebuilt or re manufactured engine and B. Has 1300 TT airframe and engine, I would think all else being equal I'd prefer A.
Of course it's very seldom that two planes are exactly alike.
As for paint and avionics, they are more expensive to install than they are to buy already on the plane you want. Good paint jobs are expensive, cheap ones are too. For the avionics are they what you would install? An older non-WAAS GPS is of marginal value to me, on the other hand if you are looking for the latest and greatest Garmin stack and plan on installing it anyway, buy it already in the panel.
Buying an airplane that has 90% of what you want is the key, if you need to do the paint or interior or avionics or engine or glass, that's fine. If it needs more than one of the above, you are getting a project that will cost you more than paying a little more and getting one already like you want it.

Thing about buying latest avionics is that it may not be available for sale already installed with the owner ready to give it away. I don't think expecting latest avionics at a 70% discount or higher is a realistic expectation.

 

[MN_Flyer]

That should give you a rough equivalent value for each plane.

MN_F, thanks for the opinion. So to clarify your TBO calc, I would add $13/h to TBO and the subtract overhaul cost to get to equivalent value. Is that right?

So (plane A price + $13 * 700 hours - $25k to $30k) = comparable value to plane price B?

Thank you.


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[James331]

Thanks for responses.

So, on the prop strike with rebuilt, got it. Not an issue. If overhauled, do some research. Roger. Got it.

On the paint vs avionics, assuming bird A had an avionics upgrade that would cost $12k to do myself vs bird B but bird B has a paint job. Which is preferred? No difference?



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12k for paint?!

You know you don't need a A&P to paint a plane right

Paint and upholstry is a area quite a few owners get raped on

 

[Greg Bockelman]

12k for paint?!

You know you don't need a A&P to paint a plane right.

That is true if you are willing to put in the sweat equity that it takes. Paint jobs are pretty labor intensive.

Having said that, there ARE some areas that may need an A&P's attention. Such as reassembly supervision and flight control balancing if necessary.

Paint and upholstry is a area quite a few owners get raped on

I guess that might be a matter of opinion. Are they huge profit generators for those that do them? I don't know. Maybe. But it may be well worth it to those of us that don't have the skill set necessary to do it on our own.

 

[ssonixx]

12k for paint?!



You know you don't need a A&P to paint a plane right



Paint and upholstry is a area quite a few owners get raped on

You haven't seen me with a paint brush. I don't paint. In fact, my wife won't let me touch anything in the house with paint anymore. Somehow the first time I had to do some painting, it came out terribly. I have no idea how I could have screwed up that badly. . Hehe.




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[Henning]

That is true if you are willing to put in the sweat equity that it takes. Paint jobs are pretty labor intensive.

Having said that, there ARE some areas that may need an A&P's attention. Such as reassembly supervision and flight control balancing if necessary.



I guess that might be a matter of opinion. Are they huge profit generators for those that do them? I don't know. Maybe. But it may be well worth it to those of us that don't have the skill set necessary to do it on our own.

It doesn't take many paint jobs a year to pay the overhead.