Commuter Airplane

[mmarqu]

Hi All,

This is my first post, and I am looking into the possibility of purchasing an airplane to commute to and from work 5 days a week (250 NM RT each day). Assuming the total annual NM would be 60k.

The challenge here is the budget (of course!). I am 90% sure there is no airplane that will fit in my very small budget, but I figure it is worth asking others just in case there is an option I am not considering. My total budget for operating costs (fuel, oil, inspections, engine overhaul fund, maint fund) and purchase price (20 yr note) is $31,200 per year ($2,600 per month), but I would really love this magic airplane to land closer to $25k per year. These figures do not include hangar or insurance costs as those will be accounted for elsewhere.

Am I living in dreamland, or is there perhaps an airplane that might actually work for me?

Thanks in advance for your input, even if it is nothing more than, "You're dreaming!"

MMARQU

 

[frfly172]

Welcome to the forum. Good luck on your quest. Can't think of a plane that will fit that budget.

 

[EdFred]

How long to do you want to be in the plane on your commute?
Where is this commuting going to take place?

I just ran the fuel numbers on my Comanche.
Figure on the average you will always have a net headwind.
250nm/150kts = 1.6hrs, but with the net headwind, figure 2hrs per day.

$65/hr in fuel (13gph) * 2 hr/day * 5 days/week * 48wks a year = $31,200/yr without even figuring maintenance or acquisition.

Even in a Mooney (9gph) - same speed and $45/hr in fuel is $21,600/yr in fuel alone.

 

[tlrussell]

we see your $ budget what is your time budget?

 

[sferguson524]

Wouldn't a cherokee 140 or a Cessna 152/older 172 fit the OP's financial budget?

 

[drotto]

I see your operating budget, what is the actual plane budget?

 

[ClimbnSink]

If only there was a small plane sub named commuter. Ah there is the Cessna 150. Might work. Weather will ruin your happy schedule. Personally straight line commuting three hours a day in a little plane would get old quick. Move closer to work buy a plane for fun.

 

[EdFred]

Wouldn't a cherokee 140 or a Cessna 152/older 172 fit the OP's financial budget?

$30k ish in fuel for a 172/140 @ 110kts (almost a 3hr commute)

$26k ish in fuel for a 152 @ 85kts (almost a 4hr commute)

 

[PAustin]

Try almost any of the RV series planes. i.e. RV4, RV6 or 7. They are fast, economical and fairly cheap to maintain. I'm pretty sure you won't have a problem falling into your budget guidelines.


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[Flying Viking]

Try almost any of the RV series planes. i.e. RV4, RV6 or 7. They are fast, economical and fairly cheap to maintain. I'm pretty sure you won't have a problem falling into your budget guidelines.

That, or a Lancair 320/360 or a Glasair I.

 

[sferguson524]

$30k ish in fuel for a 172/140 @ 110kts (almost a 3hr commute)

$26k ish in fuel for a 152 @ 85kts (almost a 4hr commute)

Good point.. didn't run the operational numbers.

 

[James331]

Wittman Tailwind

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepTailwind.html


Super inexpensive, experimental so you can go crazy on avionics for very little $$
5gph at 150mph.
These are priced in the 20s





Thorp T-18

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorp_T-18

160-200mph depending on the engine and prop, still experimental so that helps, little more expensive compared to the tailwind.

 

[gitmo234]

Dont forget to compare your budget with driving. Figure in the mileage per year, wear and tear, gas, oil changes, tolls, and the new car fund.

Get both of those together and then do the "What would I save by doing either option sheet", by figuring up how much you would not spend in traveling by both methods.

Then add in your mental pain and anguish either flying or driving and compute how much your personal time is worth (how much are you paying yourself per hour)

 

[poadeleted20]

If you email me off-PoA, I'll send you a paper on the ownership costs of a typical 4-seat simple single-engine airplane, which would be about right for your mission as long as the weather is flyable. Note that you are going to miss a few days a month (maybe more in the winter) when thunderstorms or icing make it unflyable in anything short of about 10 times that budget. Email only, please (just click on my name) -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves.

 

[flyersfan31]

Where you are will make a significant difference, thanks to weather. Also, terrain - you flying over cornfields or mountains? You will almost certainly require something that is IFR legal in any case, if you want to guarantee your 5 day/week sked. Even then....

If you are commuting in Northern Idaho, or, say into Aspen, I would say this is a pipe dream. Heck, even in the mid-Atlantic where I am, and with my airplane (pressurized, FIKI, turbine) a daily commute would be a pipe dream, and 250mi by ground on non-flying days?

So, like everything in aviation, it depends.

 

[gitmo234]

Also.. If you can telecommute a day or two as needed, that is a huge value with an airplane. You can work from home on those days outside your personal limits when in a car you'd still be expected to drive.

 

[mmarqu]

Thanks to all who have responded so quickly.

I am flying in SoCal between Orange County and the high desert, so weather shouldn't be too much trouble. Irvine does have a tendency to cloud up a bit in the morning hours, so I will take that into consideration.

Unfortunately, given the number of hours I will be flying, it appears any Cessna or Mooney is out of the picture. I did consider the DA20, but that option is out because I can't guarantee the skies will be clear every day.

I will definitely look into the RV4/6/7, Lancair 320/360, Glasair1, Wittman Tailwind, and Thorp T-18 and let everyone know if I find one that works!

Thanks again for all of the advice.

 

[Timmer]

If you're VFR don't be fooled by our 'good weather' out here. In fact, I've had to cancel 7/9 of my reserved flights this past month. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[StinkBug]

Your numbers are a bit confusing. You're giving a yearly cost, it's a whole lot simpler if you just give a total budget. If you're hoping to pay $32k/year for 20 years that can buy a whole lot of airplane. You could buy one of my mooney every year and a half.

For hourly expenses I recently did the math on what my mooney has cost me so far. Including all maintenance and fuel I'm right at $95/hr for a plane that usually cruises 135-140kts.

If you're flying from the OC all the time then you're gonna need an instrument rating to get through the marine layer on a pretty regular basis. That wasn't really mentioned in your first post, but if you dont have it already that training needs to be part of the budget.

 

[somorris]

Welcome to the forum, MMARQU. Sounds like you should just move closer to work .

 

[jordane93]

If you're VFR don't be fooled by our 'good weather' out here. In fact, I've had to cancel 7/9 of my reserved flights this past month. Just something to keep in mind.

Yea. Be prepared to miss a few days of work per month.

 

[flyersfan31]

Thanks to all who have responded so quickly.

I am flying in SoCal between Orange County and the high desert, so weather shouldn't be too much trouble. Irvine does have a tendency to cloud up a bit in the morning hours, so I will take that into consideration.

Unfortunately, given the number of hours I will be flying, it appears any Cessna or Mooney is out of the picture. I did consider the DA20, but that option is out because I can't guarantee the skies will be clear every day.

I will definitely look into the RV4/6/7, Lancair 320/360, Glasair1, Wittman Tailwind, and Thorp T-18 and let everyone know if I find one that works!

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Winds could be an issue. I've only flown through California 2x, so what do I know? Not much. And you need to make sure your homebuilt Tailwind or RV or the like is IFR-certified or certifiable. That'll add to the cost of what are usually affordable craft.

 

[EdFred]

Your numbers are a bit confusing. You're giving a yearly cost, it's a whole lot simpler if you just give a total budget. If you're hoping to pay $32k/year for 20 years that can buy a whole lot of airplane. You could buy one of my mooney every year and a half.

That included everything. Acquisition, fuel, maintenance, hangar, etc...

 

[ClimbnSink]

Didn't one of the scaled guys do that commute in a C-150 for years?

 

[StinkBug]

That included everything. Acquisition, fuel, maintenance, hangar, etc...

Just went back and reread. Yeah, my $95/hr didn't include the actual purchase of the plane, so if he's hoping to put that much time on the plane and buy it at that cost per year it's gonna be a pretty tall order. You could buy a really cheap plane and force the numbers to work, but chances are that plane will spend more time in the maintenance hangar than doing this commute. If you expect to fly 250nm per day you need something with really good dispatch reliability, and that comes with a pricetag.

Also just a note. When I was looking to buy my plane about 6 months ago I talked to a number of aircraft finance companies. NONE of them would do a 20 year note on any of the planes I was looking at. More like 6 years. I'm not sure what the magic number is where the longer terms come in, but it was well out of my budget.

 

[JHW]

Hi All,

This is my first post, and I am looking into the possibility of purchasing an airplane to commute to and from work 5 days a week (250 NM RT each day). Assuming the total annual NM would be 60k.

I've been considering much the same thing for a 2-3 year period, not long enough to uproot the family again. I'm considering building a ONEX for this. Have a look and see what you think, the recent tragic R&D accident with jeremy monnet notwithstanding, the sonex line has a very good record.

 

[EvilEagle]

I commuted from Pensacola (82J) to Tyndall AFB (KPAM) for over two years in a Glasair 1. I had to fly in low IFR quite a few times and even had to cancel a few as well. Lots of times I stayed over at Tyndall because the weather was looking bad, the blues were practicing at PNS or the tower at Tyndall wouldn't be open by the time I needed to be back the next day.

Even if you find an airplane that fits your budget, you need to have a solid backup plan for wx, airplane problems & annual and regular "life" stuff. Good luck, there's no better way to get to know your machine. I couldn't wait to get rid of that thing by the time I stopped commuting! It was a great plane, but I was sick of being in it.


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[Ted]

Lancair 360 is my thought. I was considering doing exactly this several years ago, but it didn't pan out (I didn't take the job)

 

[Henning]

Hi All,

This is my first post, and I am looking into the possibility of purchasing an airplane to commute to and from work 5 days a week (250 NM RT each day). Assuming the total annual NM would be 60k.

The challenge here is the budget (of course!). I am 90% sure there is no airplane that will fit in my very small budget, but I figure it is worth asking others just in case there is an option I am not considering. My total budget for operating costs (fuel, oil, inspections, engine overhaul fund, maint fund) and purchase price (20 yr note) is $31,200 per year ($2,600 per month), but I would really love this magic airplane to land closer to $25k per year. These figures do not include hangar or insurance costs as those will be accounted for elsewhere.

Am I living in dreamland, or is there perhaps an airplane that might actually work for me?

Thanks in advance for your input, even if it is nothing more than, "You're dreaming!"

MMARQU

Can't be done certified for those numbers. Even a C model Mooney would take more, and I wouldn't want anything slower for a 250nm commute. You might do a single seat experimental like a Midget Mustang or Cassuett to those numbers, but you will be doing most all of your own maintenance work.

Figure 10-12 gallons of fuel per day in a MM is going to be between $30 & $55 depending on what you use ($30 using Premium Unleaded in an O-200 would be my choice). So let's figure you actually manage to fly it 245 days a year on the commute, that's basically $7500 in fuel and oil right there. You will have associated airport costs at both ends, most likely a hangar situation. The nice thing about the little single seater race planes is they tuck under a wing of other planes so often you can get a hangar at minimal cost. Still, you have to figure in a minimum $2500 a year at each end, depending on the ends, it could be considerably higher. That's $12,500. You can buy a flying, decent MM for $10-12k, you can get a really nice (nice is not synonymous with comfort in these planes ) one in the $30ks. You will likely have to add the avionics you want. Figure your debt service will likely be a signature loan level cost unless you go HELOC. I'm not sure cheaper financing is available.

Insurance will be interesting for the first 100 hours, but they will renegotiate and rebate you if you come in with 100hrs in 3-6 months without a loss. I would guess that on a $25,000 one that lives in a hangar both ends, your initial premium is going to be around $2500, but after 100hrs it'll probably settle in around 1.7-1.9% of the insured value. If you have no debt service, you can just get liability.

Unless you already have them, you will buy between $2500 & $5000 worth of tools, +/- depending on brands and how well you shop. Eventually you'll have over $10k in tools and shop stuff, but it accumulates over time. Figure in another few hundred a year for an A&P to do your Condition Inspection.

 

[Henning]

Lancair 360 is my thought. I was considering doing exactly this several years ago, but it didn't pan out (I didn't take the job)

That's another good choice. Considerably more expensive to buy, and slightly more expensive to operate than an MM, also considerably larger so it doesn't offer all the same hangar sharing options; but at the same time, considerably more comfortable and capable of taking a second person and some stuff, or one person and a fair amount of stuff.

 

[Ted]

200 ktas @ 10 gph gives it about the same mileage as my Z4. Plus you could run it on MoGas., and could also get it more efficient than that by running slower, electronic ignition, etc.

 

[Henning]

200 ktas @ 10 gph gives it about the same mileage as my Z4. Plus you could run it on MoGas., and could also get it more efficient than that by running slower, electronic ignition, etc.

GTSIO-346?

 

[Ted]

GTSIO-346?

No, IO-360. You could substitute your engine of choice. I'd probably do a 10:1 360 or maybe a 4-cylinder diesel. I think you'd have a hard time beating the overall cost of a high compression, electronic ignition Lycoming 4-cylinder run LOP.

 

[Henning]

No, IO-360. You could substitute your engine of choice. I'd probably do a 10:1 360 or maybe a 4-cylinder diesel. I think you'd have a hard time beating the overall cost of a high compression, electronic ignition Lycoming 4-cylinder run LOP.

Yeah, I was kinda kidding, but a gear reduction would be nice especially with the higher compression. Maybe start with a ISGO Lycoming....

 

[overdrive148]

Email only, please (just click on my name) -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves.

 

[Allen C]

Long-Ez with O-320 165hp

-165kt TAS cruise 10-12k @ 6gph
-with O2, you can hang in the teens easily to get over the mountains. I often fly @ 16.5
-Insurance runs me $810 year
-52 gallon capacity=lots of divert options or hang time waiting to clear
-You can still find them for about 25-40k
-Last conditional cost me just under $700.

Food for thought: I am a Lancaster native. Do NOT underestimate the winds. Although it is clear 360 days a year, it is not uncommon to have 30-50 mph gusts many of those days. If you are flying out of the bowel, you WILL need IFR.

 

[dell30rb]

$30k ish in fuel for a 172/140 @ 110kts (almost a 3hr commute)

$26k ish in fuel for a 152 @ 85kts (almost a 4hr commute)

I used to fly a well maintained IFR 152 w mogas stc. Right now that would be about 95kts on 4.5gph @ $2.80/gal.

so 90kts average speed
2.8hrs r/t
14hrs/week *48 wks yr
672 hrs annually
3024 gallons of fuel

$8500 in fuel

Figure $3000 annual maintenance and overhaul at 2300 hours (18k) $7.80/hr or $5200/yr

So we are at $16700/yr for maintenance, fuel, overhaul. Insurance is maybe 800/yr.


So it can be done certified. I would get a mogas experimental though. If you fit, the Gen 1 glasair taildraggers might be a good bargain.

 

[EdFred]

I used to fly a well maintained IFR 152 w mogas stc. Right now that would be about 95kts on 4.5gph @ $2.80/gal.

so 90kts average speed
2.8hrs r/t
14hrs/week *48 wks yr
672 hrs annually
3024 gallons of fuel

$8500 in fuel

Figure $3000 annual maintenance and overhaul at 2300 hours (18k) $7.80/hr or $5200/yr

So we are at $16700/yr for maintenance, fuel, overhaul. Insurance is maybe 800/yr.


So it can be done certified. I would get a mogas experimental though. If you fit, the Gen 1 glasair taildraggers might be a good bargain.

No headwinds at all huh? My figures were based on having to deal with headwind penalty, because even if the wind doesn't change that 90kts going to 120kts doesn't balance out the 60ks the other direction.

 

[denverpilot]

If you are flying out of the bowel, you WILL need IFR.

I think your autocorrect has a sense of humor or it really does know we're talking about Irvine. Haha.

 

[woodchucker]

I can't really answer the question posed, but is it realistic under any circumstance to expect to commute that far, by air, to a job? Seems too much is against it. Cost and safety primarily. I would think it's best to live near where you work, and fly for fun?