Common Regulation Misunderstandings and General Safety Concerns

weirdjim said:
It was actually a two-parter. The other one was "School For Perfection".

jw
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Yep, that's correct, and that was also an excellent piece. Concentrating on regs made me think of the 2nd one however.
 
weirdjim said:
OK, I'll throw one of my favorites into this catfight. Can somebody please quote me chapter and verse of how "night" is defined?
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Night is defined by the FAA in only one way:
14 CFR 1.1 said:
Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time.
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Of course, the American Air Almanac hasn't been published under that name in a very long time, but you can get "official" morning/evening civil twilight times from the Naval Observatory web site.

In addition, so-called "Night takeoff and landing experience" is discussed in 14 CFR 61.57(b), but it doesn't cover the period defined as "night" in 1.1, but rather the period from 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise.
(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and-
(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).
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Finally, so-called "night lighting" (the use of position and anchor lights) is covered by 14 CFR 91.209(a):
No person may:
(a) During the period from sunset to sunrise (or, in Alaska, during
the period a prominent unlighted object cannot be seen from a distance
of 3 statute miles or the sun is more than 6 degrees below the
horizon)--
(1) Operate an aircraft unless it has lighted position lights;
(2) Park or move an aircraft in, or in dangerous proximity to, a
night flight operations area of an airport unless the aircraft--
(i) Is clearly illuminated;
(ii) Has lighted position lights; or
(iii) is in an area that is marked by obstruction lights;
(3) Anchor an aircraft unless the aircraft--
(i) Has lighted anchor lights; or
(ii) Is in an area where anchor lights are not required on vessels;
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So, three different sorts of "night" -- lighting, logging, and landings, using sunset/sunrise, evening/morning civil twilight, and 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrrise, defined in three different regs covering three different issues.

Now, ya wanna do definitions of "cross-country" for $500?
 
61.1
(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
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Part 61.1 seems to have the definition of cross country. But how it is used to meet aeronautical experience is probably the question.
 
Ron Levy said:
Night is defined by the FAA in only one way:
Of course, the American Air Almanac hasn't been published under that name in a very long time, but you can get "official" morning/evening civil twilight times from the Naval Observatory web site.

Now let me put on my steely-eyed FAA inspector face. "Sorry, sonny, the rules quite clearly say 'American Air Almanac' and you can't just use another source even if it is the Naval Observatory. Just hand over your certificate, will you please."

And no, I'm not kidding. The FAA clearly knows that the rule is outdated and I'll bet even money that if somebody gets busted for not observing the "night" rules that the court will NOT side with the folks who wrote the regs ... the FAA.

Just FYI I had that catfight with an FAA Aviation Safety Counselor back in Oshkosh in 1995 and wound up marrying her :cheerswine:
Now, ya wanna do definitions of "cross-country" for $500?

Sure, it has three or four different definitions depending on what it is being used for. I s'pose I could go look them up but I'm lazy this afternoon.
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.....
 
Let me give you a point of view without arguing details...
My log does not list the passengers, or the T&G at intervening airports, or who paid for the hamburgers, or what route I took, or what altitude, etc... The more details you give the more impossible it is to be operating within the regs... Give the FSDO the rope and they will cheerfully string you up with it...


I am current for carrying passengers, or night operations, or for filing an instrument flight plan because my log book says I am, period... The log documents the required currency data - with the barest of details listing merely the date(s), airport(s), and aircraft upon which the relevant, required for currency, maneuvers were performed and nothing else...

The rest of the information in the log is a quarterly summary for total flight time, single versus multi, and night hours and IFR time, etc... It does not list dates or airports for the individual flights comprising the quarter, that data is only for flights that were necessary for currency...

Now, I am sure that some may find fault with my method... But let the FAA decide to go through your logs and go through my logs with a microscope and and see who is more anxious in the end... (I sleep like a baby, btw)

denny-o (older than dirt)
 
JeffDG said:
It's not actually possible to be current for "night" (I use quotes because of the number of definitions!) or TW and not be current for day-nosewheel.
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Sure it is. Do three takeoffs and landings at night in a twin. For reasons not entirely clear to me at that point you haven't made yourself current for acting as PIC in a single (day or night).
 
denverpilot said:
How about this one:

Pilot does his preflight with the last remaining light of day since it's easier, and launches before sunset for a night-currency flight.

Assuming Civil Twilight is over the second his wheels leave the pavement on the takeoff roll, how many landings does he have to make to become night-current?
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Okay I haven't bothered to read the rest of this thread but here's my stab at an answer. It doesn't matter whether civil twilight is over the second his wheels leave the pavement. I think the answer is 3, regardless. The way he does it is to stay up until 1 hour after sunset, then makes his 1st landing. He then needs 3 takeoffs and 2 landings before 1 hour before sunrise to be night current. After his 4th takeoff, he logs the previous 3 night landings and takeoffs in the air and is night current.

The only thing I'm not sure of is whether you can log an incomplete flight. If not, then the answer is 4.

BTW that's a pretty long takeoff roll, if he launches before sunset but his wheels don't leave the pavement until after civil twilight is over. :D
 
ajstoner21 said:
Part 61.1 seems to have the definition of cross country. But how it is used to meet aeronautical experience is probably the question.
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61.1(b)(3) actually has seven different definitions of "cross-country time" depending on the purpose for which you're counting it, and each subparagraph of 61.1(b)(3) tells you the purpose for which definition is used. Andrew only quoted the first two, and weirdjim came up about four or three short in his count of "three or four."
 
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JeffDG said:
The other thing I note in the remarks for night is T&G vs. S&G or Full Stop...sometimes I just want to bang out some landings, and having 9,000' of runway means that I'll do 2 stop-and-gos, then several T&Gs before a full stop at the end.
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So far, I fly so little for night that I always have done S&Gs (and of course a full stop at the end). I have never done a T&G at night. So I don't note them.

John
 
How many accidents can be traced directly too noncompliance with regulations? Is that how the chain gets broken, not complying with regulations, or are regulations one of the links that can actually cause an accident.

A low time pilot receives an announcement that he has drifted into Bravo and is instructed how to remove himself from same. He complies, then spends the rest of his flight thinking about the blunder, how it happened, whats going to happen to him as a result. Sounds like a link in the accident chain to me.

Safety can not be corrected through posters. How many industrial sights are covered with safety posters, have numerous safety regulations, but continue to have accidents?

Once something has been posted on a wall for any length of time, it just becomes wallpaper, people look, but do not see.

People are people, not all will be interested in the things we find interesting. The FAA has done an excellent job trying to keep us aware of the things we should know, ergo flight reviews. There are numerous safety programs available through the FAA, AOPA and others, yet we still have accidents.

The only thing that will stop accidents is interest on the part of the pilot in the safety of the flight. Every PIC is interested in the safety of the flight, that's a given. The problem is it becomes routine, like wallpaper or checking the gas tank. No matter what we do, **** happens.

John
 
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