Comm Failure

[Joegoersch]

I've read the FARs and I know what they say I should I do when I experience comm failure, but the other day I was thinking about what would really happen if I really had COMM failure.

Supposing my clearance is ....9000 feet...blah..blah...SBJ direct.
And my airport is 15 miles from SBJ. What if I lose comm before I've been cleared lower. How to possibly get down from 9000 feet to the IAF at 2000 ft in 15 miles ? Lose 7000 feet in 5 minutes would make for a heck of a ride, even with the gear down...

Thoughts ?

 

[coloradobluesky]

Squawk 7600, fly the route, fly the arrival, fly the approach and land. If you really worry about it, get a handheld. With its own antennae.

 

[steingar]

Yup. I bought a handheld after my first radio gremlins made their appearance. Haven't had to use it too much inflight, but I know it'll hit 5 miles out.

 

[Joegoersch]

Squawk 7600, fly the route, fly the arrival, fly the approach and land. If you really worry about it, get a handheld. With its own antennae.

Yes. But HOW would you actually lose 7000 feet in 15 miles?

 

[Shawn]

Here is the problem with your question...you are making up a hypothetical where ATC would have left ya at 9000' at only 15 miles out THEN you loose coms?

...unless you are suggesting that you did not realize that you lost coms until 15 miles out while still at 9000'...at which point that is a loss of situational awareness on your part in anticipating the decent...not saying it is impossible but an unlikely situation to find yourself in.

Being an unlikely but not impossible scenario, hard to answer without seeing an actual route and approach to see what you options would be to keep ya alive in IMC conditions.

Two options would be to use a published hold along the route with a low enough MEA as descending hold or fly a lap or two in the course reversal to descend. Name of the game is to stay on an airway or approach segment that you know will keep you alive.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Yes. But HOW would you actually lose 7000 feet in 15 miles?

That's up to you. If your plane wont come down fast enough either go into the hold at the approach and come down in the hold or do a course reversal, followed by another course reversal. I think Id come down in the hold. I know that is obstruction free. But really it could be wherever you KNOW it is obstruction free. This really is a separate problem from the lost comms, but yes, I can see how they might come at the same time.

 

[Joegoersch]

Here is the problem with your question...you are making up a hypothetical where ATC would have left ya at 9000' at only 15 miles out THEN you loose coms?

...unless you are suggesting that you did not realize that you lost coms until 15 miles out while still at 9000'...at which point that is a loss of situational awareness on your part in anticipating the decent...not saying it is impossible but an unlikely situation to find yourself in.

Being an unlikely but not impossible scenario, hard to answer without seeing an actual route and approach to see what you options would be to keep ya alive in IMC conditions.

No. Not at all. What if I lost comms early in the flight? I'd be expected to climb to my cleared altitude, 9000, and assuming no further climb needed for enroute MEA or MOCA-stay there until my last cleared fix (SBJ in my example) and then start descent.

 

[Shawn]

No. Not at all. What if I lost comms early in the flight? I'd be expected to climb to my cleared altitude, 9000, and assuming no further climb needed for enroute MEA or MOCA-stay there until my last cleared fix (SBJ in my example) and then start descent.

Assuming that you are still staying above the MEA, a reasonable decent rate prior to SBJ to reach the IAF and your destination would be expected. Assuming a 2000' MEA along your route to the IAF, I would start me decent anticipating a 500 FPM decent rate to reach the IAF at 2000'. You would not need to stay at 9000' until SBJ.

...that is also assuming an arrival with no PT or holds on the approach that could be used for the decent in which case I would indeed stay at 9000' and descend in the hold if those were available.

 

[Joegoersch]

Assuming that you are still staying above the MEA, a reasonable decent rate prior to SBJ to reach the IAF and your destination would be expected.

Now THAT makes perfect sense. It's just not written into the FARs/lost comm procedures at all. It says to stay at highest of....until final fix and then descend to approach at the expected time. But yes, much better to start 500 fpm descent 14 minutes out...

 

[BigBadLou]

either go into the hold at the approach and come down in the hold or do a course reversal, followed by another course reversal. I think Id come down in the hold.

IIRC, that is the only correct answer. But if I am wrong, please do correct me. And provide the appropriate FAR quote.

 

[Shawn]

IIRC, that is the only correct answer. But if I am wrong, please do correct me. And provide the appropriate FAR quote.

I agree, but in the absence of an available hold, PT, or course reversal...what is you next option?

 

[dtuuri]

Now THAT makes perfect sense. It's just not written into the FARs/lost comm procedures at all. It says to stay at highest of....until final fix and then descend to approach at the expected time. But yes, much better to start 500 fpm descent 14 minutes out...

It might make sense to you, but not to the people who wrote the rule. You stay at altitude until the IAF in accordance with the minimum altitudes per route segment. When you arrive at the IAF, come down according to 91.185. I've got a tutorial for you here .

dtuuri

 

[Caramon13]

If you were cleared 9000, you should stay at 9000 until you are on a published segment of the approach. As for WHICH approach you do with no comms, that's up to you. You don't just start descending from 9000 to the IAF when you lose comms. Especially if you are in IMC or doing an approach in IMC. Squawk 7600 for sure. As for getting down to 2000 from 9000, you have options there as well, course reversal, hold, procedure turn, etc.

You weren't cleared, so pick the IAF that will give you the most time to get down if there is no procedure turn, CR, etc. There might even be a runway that has a better approach procedure (you did go over these prior to your flight right?), one that will take more time, get you down. The winds might not be favoring it, but if approach sees you flying it, they can at least be prepared to move people out of the way.

 

[AggieMike88]

The OP sorta indicated that the origin airport is about 1500 MSL.

If that is part of the parameters, I sorta don't see being given a clearance of "....expect 9000 in x time" for just a 15 mile hop.

4000 or 5000.... maybe, but 9000 is a major stretch.

 

[Joegoersch]

It might make sense to you, but not to the people who wrote the rule. You stay at altitude until the IAF in accordance with the minimum altitudes per route segment. When you arrive at the IAF, come down according to 91.185. I've got a tutorial for you here .

dtuuri

Yes. At my home airport KLDJ, to make matters worse, no procedure turn, and no hold, except for the missed. One approach GPS-A. But as far as I know, no one has ever flown the missed. Approach REALLY insists you cancel early because otherwise they have to hold up all the traffic at Newark, not something they like you to do !!! I thought about this when coming back to LDJ from far away (I'm not stupid, I requested high because it was a 3 hour flight with favorable winds at that altitude). My final clearance limit was, as I mentioned SBJ then direct LDJ.

By the letter of the law, I would not be allow to come down until WARRD , the IAF, which is only 6.6 NM to DAPVY and only 11 miles to the FAF GEZSY (1400 MSL) and then another 4.7 NM to the missed at 640 MSL. So that would be about 16.3 miles to lose 8300 feet or so. Pretty darn tough in a Mooney !!!

 

[dtuuri]

My final clearance limit was, as I mentioned SBJ then direct LDJ.

How so? Your original clearance was not to your destination airport? You were given an EFC at SBJ and holding instructions? I think you had no "clearance limit" other than your destination.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

By the letter of the law, I would not be allow to come down until WARRD , the IAF, which is only 6.6 NM to DAPVY and only 11 miles to the FAF GEZSY (1400 MSL) and then another 4.7 NM to the missed at 640 MSL. So that would be about 16.3 miles to lose 8300 feet or so. Pretty darn tough in a Mooney !!!

You descend in a holding pattern at WARRD. I have to say, IIRC, GPS approaches don't have the same protections that legacy-type approaches have for terrain clearance. I seem to recall studying this issue once before and concluding the authors of GPS TERPS didn't consider the possibility of lost comms. If it were me, I'd descend in a hold on the final approach side of the fix. [EDIT: Nope, the initial approach segment is only half as wide for GPS as, say, a VOR initial segment]

dtuuri

 

[Joegoersch]

How so? Your original clearance was not to your destination airport? You were given an EFC at SBJ and holding instructions? I think you had no "clearance limit" other than your destination.

dtuuri

Yes. you are right...Clearance read.Cleared LINDEN.....expect 9000....blah...blah...blah...SBJ direct
I.e. direct Linden. So are you suggesting I would fly to SBJ then to the airport (right near KEWR) at 9000 then turn around back towards the initial fix WAARD ? There is no published hold at WARRD.

 

[Joegoersch]

If I fly from the airport back to WARRD at 9000, still the problem of beginning descent at WAARD, I'd never make it down.

 

[dtuuri]

Yes. you are right...Clearance read.Cleared LINDEN.....expect 9000....blah...blah...blah...SBJ direct
I.e. direct Linden. So are you suggesting I would fly to SBJ then to the airport (right near KEWR) at 9000 then turn around back towards the initial fix WAARD ? There is no published hold at WARRD.

If I fly from the airport back to WARRD at 9000, still the problem of beginning descent at WAARD, I'd never make it down.

No, no. After Solberg you were cleared "Direct"--that doesn't mean RNAV to the airport, it means to a fix from which an approach begins.

dtuuri

 

[Joegoersch]

No, no. After Solberg you were cleared "Direct"--that doesn't mean RNAV to the airport, it means to a fix from which an approach begins.

dtuuri

O.K. So from SBJ to the WARRD, the IF of the only approach at Linden. Now I'm at 9000 feet, 16 miles from the missed at 740 MSL, no published hold at the IF. Not clear what to do.

This isn't some obscure scenario I'm dreaming up, pretty much any clearance to KLDJ would be like this and I just don't know the correct method for getting down from WARRD to the FAF in IMC in a way consistent with my safety (and the safety of those flying around me, but I pretty much have to keep them safe if I'm gonna be safe !)

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1603/06291ga.pdf

 

[dtuuri]

O.K. So from SBJ to the WARRD, the IF of the only approach at Linden. Now I'm at 9000 feet, 16 miles from the missed at 740 MSL, no published hold at the IF. Not clear what to do.

... and I just don't know the correct method for getting down from WARRD to the FAF in IMC in a way consistent with my safety (and the safety of those flying around me, but I pretty much have to keep them safe if I'm gonna be safe !)

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1603/06291ga.pdf

WARRD is not an IF (intermediate fix) it's an IAF (initial approach fix). At WARRD you'd enter a hold and descend at the time specified in 91.185. If you were PIC, how would you execute the rule?

dtuuri

 

[Joegoersch]

WARRD is not an IF (intermediate fix) it's an IAF (initial approach fix). At WARRD you'd enter a hold and descend at the time specified in 91.185. If you were PIC, how would you execute the rule?

dtuuri

Sorry, you are 100% right, WARRD is IAF. But there is no published hold there. I guess I could just descend in a standard holding pattern there one or two laps would get me down. Terrain there is no problem, as you can see on IAP.

 

[dtuuri]

Sorry, you are 100% right, WARRD is IAF. But there is no published hold there. I guess I could just descend in a standard holding pattern there one or two laps would get me down. Terrain there is no problem, as you can see on IAP.

Which direction would you hold from the fix?

dtuuri

 

[Joegoersch]

South. Away from Newark International.

 

[dtuuri]

South. Away from Newark International.

Ok, bear with me here... what do you mean by "south", exactly.

dtuuri

 

[Joegoersch]

Ok, bear with me here... what do you mean by "south", exactly.

dtuuri

If WARRD were a VOR I'd fly inbound to WARRD on the 180 degree radial (northbound) to WARRD then turn right outbound, heading south long enough so that after another right 180, one minute flying north would bring me back to WARRD.

 

[dtuuri]

If WARRD were a VOR I'd fly inbound to WARRD on the 180 degree radial (northbound) to WARRD then turn right outbound, heading south long enough so that after another right 180, one minute flying north would bring me back to WARRD.

I was afraid that's what you'd say. No, if WARRD were a VOR and you wanted to hold "south" you'd look at the chart and see what airways were south of the VOR, then hold on, if there is just one, on it. In this case, V213 is the only airway through WARRD, so you could use that. The airway has terrain protection, simply holding on the 180°radial does not.

BUT WARRD isn't a VOR, so that discussion is just academic. It's an intersection and there are three choices: north, south or on the final approach course. North on V213 wouldn't let you get down to your initial approach altitude--the MEA is 1000' higher and you're beyond the 22 nm limit for MOCA. Either south on V213 or the final approach course (since there is a published altitude and the route segment is the same width as the airway) would be best. Left or right? The default is right.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

After further review, I believe RNAV approaches have just half the initial segment width as VOR initial segments, so that would rule out the final approach course side. Besides, it would face you away from the airport. I made an edit above where I had said that's what I'd do. That was before I looked at the enroute chart and saw WARRD was on a Victor airway.

dtuuri

 

[Joegoersch]

After further review, I believe RNAV approaches have just half the initial segment width as VOR initial segments, so that would rule out the final approach course side. Besides, it would face you away from the airport. I made an edit above where I had said that's what I'd do. That was before I looked at the enroute chart and saw WARRD was on a Victor airway.

dtuuri

Thanks. All good points. The VFR chart shows south and east (right turns would keep me east of WARRD) nothing more than 800 feet high. So I would not worry so much descending to 2000 in the hold. I do see 3000 as the Grid MORA on the IFR chart which, unlike the VFR chart provides protection (1000 feet above the highest obstacle). But I think the discrepancy (800 VFR sector altitude and 3000 Grid MORA on IFR chart may also be due to where sectors drawn, since 1800=1000+800 would have to keep me 1000 feet above everything according to VFR chart)

So another safe option would be to descend in hold south of WARRD to 2900 and then descend along published approach to published altitudes.

And I see 2900 as the MSA for 25 miles around BAUTZ the MAP for the approach. Given WARRD 16 from BAUTZ, even at 120kts, 1 minute legs should easily keep me within 4 miles from BAUTZ even if I screw up a bit, so I should always be 20 or less from BAUTZ, with a MSA of 2900. From WARRD to DAPVY is 6 miles I could easily descend 1500 at standard descent rate of 500 ft/min assuming anything other than a crazy tailwind and arrive at DAPVY at 1400.

 

[dtuuri]

Thanks. All good points. The VFR chart shows south and east (right turns would keep me east of WARRD) nothing more than 800 feet high. So I would not worry so much descending to 2000 in the hold.

Just keep your speed down, so you stay within the airway's lateral limits. When these airways go away, I'm not sure what pilots can do in a case like this on a GPS approach. You'd only have two miles to turn around not four. Perhaps add 1000' to MEA to gain the use of the secondary obstacle area and get back the four miles? Of course, maybe they figured you'd have a moving map and, hence, more precision? Or they just never even thought about it?

But I think the discrepancy (800 VFR sector altitude and 3000 Grid MORA on IFR chart may also be due to where sectors drawn, since 1800=1000+800 would have to keep me 1000 feet above everything according to VFR chart)

You use Jepps? On g-mint lo charts the sector areas are four times bigger than sectional charts.

So another safe option would be to descend in hold south of WARRD to 2900 and then descend along published approach to published altitudes.

Good option.

And I see 2900 as the MSA for 25 miles around BAUTZ the MAP for the approach. Given WARRD 16 from BAUTZ, even at 120kts, 1 minute legs should easily keep me within 4 miles from BAUTZ WARRD even if I screw up a bit, so I should always be 20 or less from BAUTZ, with a MSA of 2900. From WARRD to DAPVY is 6 miles I could easily descend 1500 at standard descent rate of 500 ft/min assuming anything other than a crazy tailwind and arrive at DAPVY at 1400.

More good thinking (I think I fixed a typo for you). All these thoughts are better considered before filing a flight plan not on the fly. Planning every flight on the basis of a lost comm situation is the cornerstone of situational awareness.

dtuuri

 

[Joegoersch]

Just keep your speed down, so you stay within the airway's lateral limits. When these airways go away, I'm not sure what pilots can do in a case like this on a GPS approach. You'd only have two miles to turn around not four. Perhaps add 1000' to MEA to gain the use of the secondary obstacle area and get back the four miles? Of course, maybe they figured you'd have a moving map and, hence, more precision? Or they just never even thought about it?


You use Jepps? On g-mint lo charts the sector areas are four times bigger than sectional charts.


Good option.


More good thinking (I think I fixed a typo for you). All these thoughts are better considered before filing a flight plan not on the fly. Planning every flight on the basis of a lost comm situation is the cornerstone of situational awareness.

dtuuri

Amen ! Thanks for all the help. No way could I have figured this out at 9000 feet. This discussion was very helpful to me.

Take home lessons for me:
1) (you said it perfectly) Planning every flight on the basis of a lost comm situation is the cornerstone of situational awareness.
2) check batteries in handheld before any IFR or cross country flight
3) If any indication of impending comm or battery failure, notify ATC and arrange for descent early before complete comm failure, probably also give them an updated ETA.

 

[dtuuri]

Amen ! Thanks for all the help. No way could I have figured this out at 9000 feet. This discussion was very helpful to me.

Take home lessons for me:
1) ...
2) ...
3) If any indication of impending comm or battery failure, notify ATC ... probably also give them an updated ETA.

An updated ETA would only come into effect if you had or will receive a clearance limit short of the destination and even then only if you lost comm between receiving holding instructions and the issuance of an EFC. Otherwise, cleared destination as in the original clearance 99% of the time, simply start down reaching the IAF. There's no need to hold anymore awaiting your ETA like more than 25 years ago. The FAA dropped that requirement when they dropped the "expect approach clearance" concept in amendment 91-189.

dtuuri

 

[luvflyin]

Good discussion. You might have to do a little "roll your own" here. Lets take it further. You miss. You're at VANER at 2000. Now what?

 

[Joegoersch]

I guess proceed to alternate, but you have no routing !!! Clearly you'd fly at MEA. You would really hope, given proximity to EWR, JFK and LGA that they have you as a primary target. Fly most obvious route to alternate ?

 

[EdFred]

I punched in 7600, descended out of the clouds, then punched in 1200, and went direct to the nearest decent looking untowered field. I wasn't going to fly the next three hours dodging thunderstorms incommunicado.

ZTL figured out where I was headed, and called the FBO and let them know I was headed that way.

In your situation....7600, fly the approach. Circling/descending HPILPT at WARRD.

 

[CRAFT]

Yes. But HOW would you actually lose 7000 feet in 15 miles?

Point the spinny part toward the ground. Pull back when I see the ground. Of course, this assumes I have not planned this flight properly, had neither charts nor approach plates and forgot everything I was taught during IR training about lost comm procedures.