COMM Experience requirements question.

[dell30rb]

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Say I leave a non-towered airport at night, fly 2.2 hours at night and land at a towered airport. Can I log 2.2 hours towards this 5 hours?

 

[JeffDG]

I could be wrong, but I think the time can be anywhere, the T/O and Landings have to be with a tower.

ie. You can log any "Night" time (don't ask me which definition, for the love of God, don't!), but you can only count the landings if there's a tower.

 

[Captain]

I don't remember a control tower requirement. Is that new or is my memory fading. Got my COMM in 1998.

 

[cirrusmx]

so, can you do the commercial rating on an sr22t? or is it still required to ride on a beatup arrow in order to have a gear switch?

 

[nosehair]

It reads like this: "Any number of night flights totaling 5 hours, during which at least 10 T.O.s and Ldgs must be made at a towered airport."

 

[dell30rb]

so, can you do the commercial rating on an sr22t? or is it still required to ride on a beatup arrow in order to have a gear switch?

The beat up arrow is still required. In my case i'm doing it in a mooney.

I haven't really figured out yet if I want to do the maneuvers in a different plane and then bring two planes to the checkride.

The big question mark is, can I learn the maneuvers in less than five hours? I was able to get a checkout and IPC in the mooney in 5 hours. That means I still need five more hours of dual in the complex plane to meet that requirement.

I wanted to do the checkride in a cub more for fun than anything else

 

[Z06_Mir]

Yeah you can learn the maneuvers in 5 hours. I spent an hour doing them and the only one that wasn't within PTS yet was the chandell.

I'm going up tonight for another two hours or so of this. Keep in mind, there is also a provision in 61.129 that says "solo, or performing the duties of pilot in command with a certified flight instructor". So although you can't log the "dual" box, you can log the PIC box and it will count towards it. Why we can't take non pilot passengers on this "solo" stuff ill never get. You'd think they'd rather see that than taking a CFI. For me, the city is far too beautiful at night to fly it alone if I can take someone.

 

[dell30rb]

Yeah you can learn the maneuvers in 5 hours. I spent an hour doing them and the only one that wasn't within PTS yet was the chandell.

I can pull off a nice chandelle and lazy 8 in a 152 or cub. Never tried anything like that in the mooney.

The one that puzzles me a little bit is the eights on pylons. Pivotal altitude and what not. I really haven't taken the time to read up on it.

 

[Captain]

I can pull off a nice chandelle and lazy 8 in a 152 or cub. Never tried anything like that in the mooney.

The one that puzzles me a little bit is the eights on pylons. Pivotal altitude and what not. I really haven't taken the time to read up on it.

8's on Pylons:

I like to think in extremes to make a point. Imagine you try to fly around an intersection of two roads (the pylon) at 50 feet AGL. Can't do it. The intersection just flies by you. Why? Because you are too low...you're below the pivotal altitude.

Conversely, try the same thing at 10,000 feet AGL. In order to see the intersection you'd have to be 15 miles away and you turn would take you inside the pylon. Again, won't work because now you're above the pivotal altitude.

Wrong subject I know...just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[GCA319]

so, can you do the commercial rating on an sr22t? or is it still required to ride on a beatup arrow in order to have a gear switch?

You can use the SR22 for most of the tasks, but you'll still have to demonstrate complex proficiency in a retract(plus 10 hours prior to taking the ride). The complex portion of my ride consisted of one turn in the pattern in a 177RG.

Regs aside, Im not crazy about using a turbo in the training environment.

 

[dell30rb]

Is this maneuver like a turn about a point, except you use two points?

 

[Z06_Mir]

I can pull off a nice chandelle and lazy 8 in a 152 or cub. Never tried anything like that in the mooney.

The one that puzzles me a little bit is the eights on pylons. Pivotal altitude and what not. I really haven't taken the time to read up on it.

Although the pivotal altitude is important, I found it much easier to think of it as a regular ground reference maneuver. A lot of it has to do with the ground speed which is a wind thing. Here in AZ 90% of the time at such a low altitude the wind is 10kts or less, so it's less of an issue of the pivotal altitude as it is a glorified S turn.

 

[GCA319]

Is this maneuver like a turn about a point, except you use two points?

Nope-I dont have the time to explain it right now, but the AFH has a good description of it, so Ill let you look it up

 

[rbridges]

is there much training in the commercial that makes it worth it for the casual flyer? I thought about pursuing it but put it on the back burner after getting my instrument.

 

[douglas393]

is there much training in the commercial that makes it worth it for the casual flyer? I thought about pursuing it but put it on the back burner after getting my instrument.

I started my commercial right after I got my instrument, and stopped when it became apparent the only complex plane I could easily use was a twin, and I did not want to spend the extra time and money in the twin, to get a rating I was not going to use. However, learning the maneuvers and flying to the commercial standards was a great learning experience and I think has made me a better pilot. So for me it was well worth it. Also I find chandelles, eights on a pylon, lazy eights, and the steep descents fun to do.

The hardest thing for me was when I first started was to remember all of the maneuvers are visual maneuvers and not instrument, and it took a few hours just to break that habit.

 

[Z06_Mir]

is there much training in the commercial that makes it worth it for the casual flyer? I thought about pursuing it but put it on the back burner after getting my instrument.

I think there is. It is about smoothness and being precise. I don't think one can have too much training. Just because you have a commercial certificate doesn't mean you have to fly professionally.

 

[FORANE]

This may be a simpleton question, but if one already has all the requisite cross country hours and distance, night flights into towered fields, complex training time, instrument training time, etc could that individual take the commercial checkride with just a sighnoff? I understand one would need to pass the written and get a cfi to actually do the signoff, but I believe I meet all the experience requirements associated with training for the commercial ticket even though I have not sought to do so.

 

[jimhorner]

This may be a simpleton question, but if one already has all the requisite cross country hours and distance, night flights into towered fields, complex training time, instrument training time, etc could that individual take the commercial checkride with just a sighnoff? I understand one would need to pass the written and get a cfi to actually do the signoff, but I believe I meet all the experience requirements associated with training for the commercial ticket even though I have not sought to do so.

You still need to have (per 61.129.3.v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

Other than that, yes, if you meet the requirements of the commercial experience, you can take the checkride.

 

[Z06_Mir]

This may be a simpleton question, but if one already has all the requisite cross country hours and distance, night flights into towered fields, complex training time, instrument training time, etc could that individual take the commercial checkride with just a sighnoff? I understand one would need to pass the written and get a cfi to actually do the signoff, but I believe I meet all the experience requirements associated with training for the commercial ticket even though I have not sought to do so.

All of this has to be done dual. I came into the training with all the complex training done and the day cross countries. Basically all I need are maneuvers and the night XC. I was told to expect 10 hours.
(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a single engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;

(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

 

[ProspectingCFI]

This may be a simpleton question, but if one already has all the requisite cross country hours and distance, night flights into towered fields, complex training time, instrument training time, etc could that individual take the commercial checkride with just a sighnoff? I understand one would need to pass the written and get a cfi to actually do the signoff, but I believe I meet all the experience requirements associated with training for the commercial ticket even though I have not sought to do so.

Sounds like you may just need to go through the maneuvers and you'd be ready. Might as well, as long as you have the required instruction.

To the OP yes the 2.2 counts towards it. And about the controlled fields, yes, must be towered.

 

[FORANE]

You still need to have (per 61.129.3.v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

Other than that, yes, if you meet the requirements of the commercial experience, you can take the checkride.

Ah, I suspected there would be a 3 hour checkride prep type requirement.

All of this has to be done dual.
(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

Even the cross countries need to be dual?

 

[dell30rb]

Ah, I suspected there would be a 3 hour checkride prep type requirement.


Even the cross countries need to be dual?

There is a 3hr prep requirement.

I'm hoping to get it all done with the remaining 5 hours dual I have left for the 10hrs complex.

I also have to get some more night takeoffs and landings but I can just go do that myself in a C152

 

[Z06_Mir]

Ah, I suspected there would be a 3 hour checkride prep type requirement.


Even the cross countries need to be dual?

Yes, those two do. Not the long solo XC though, obviously. The day time one was likely already met in your instrument training.

 

[gismo]

8's on Pylons:

I like to think in extremes to make a point. Imagine you try to fly around an intersection of two roads (the pylon) at 50 feet AGL. Can't do it. The intersection just flies by you. Why? Because you are too low...you're below the pivotal altitude.

Conversely, try the same thing at 10,000 feet AGL. In order to see the intersection you'd have to be 15 miles away and you turn would take you inside the pylon. Again, won't work because now you're above the pivotal altitude.

Wrong subject I know...just thought I'd throw that out there.

Cap'n, you left out the part where the wing has to point at the intersection thus setting the bank angle. If you can use any bank angle it's easy to fly a circle around a point at any altitude high enough to prevent dragging a wing.

Pylon 8s are easy once you get it in your head that you must pull the nose up if the wing is starting to move ahead of the pylon and let the nose drop if the wing starts to fall back. A key issue is avoiding the temptation to yaw the wing forward or back with rudder (a bust if the DE notices).

 

[gismo]

Even the cross countries need to be dual?

Yes, 61.129a(3) i through v must be dual and the 10 hours must include all the items listed in 61.127 (with appropriate notations in your logbook). Nothing says that dual received prior to working towards a CPL can't be used to cover some of this if CFI made the proper entries in your log at the time. IIRC, even pre-PPL dual counts. For example if you happened to make a dual night XC that meets the requirements in iv prior to your PPL checkride (or after for that matter) you've already got that one covered.

 

[Captain]

Cap'n, you left out the part where the wing has to point at the intersection thus setting the bank angle. If you can use any bank angle it's easy to fly a circle around a point at any altitude high enough to prevent dragging a wing.

Pylon 8s are easy once you get it in your head that you must pull the nose up if the wing is starting to move ahead of the pylon and let the nose drop if the wing starts to fall back. A key issue is avoiding the temptation to yaw the wing forward or back with rudder (a bust if the DE notices).

You're right, I didn't state the wing has to point at the pylon. But that's the point of the extreme analogy. If you were at 50' and flew by...rolling into a turn to put the intersection on the wing then the point would zip past (behind) the wing. Not working due to too low.

If you were at 10,000' and rolled into the turn to align the wing with the point the point would move forward of the wing as you turned inside it. Again, now you're too high.

So you need to find the 'just right' altitude and when you're spot on you'll find that as wind affects your ground speed throughout the figure 8 turns you're going to have to adjust your altitude to maintain that 'Just Right' situation.

I only mention all this because it really helps me to visualize these things if I use the extreme exaggerations like I used above. Its easy for me to see the pylon flying past behind my wing if I'm only 50 feet off the ground.

 

[poadeleted20]

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Say I leave a non-towered airport at night, fly 2.2 hours at night and land at a towered airport. Can I log 2.2 hours towards this 5 hours?

Yes. And you can count the landing, too, as long as you enter the pattern and land (as opposed to ILS straight in).

 

[poadeleted20]

so, can you do the commercial rating on an sr22t? or is it still required to ride on a beatup arrow in order to have a gear switch?

The latter, but I believe a change to make a TAA aircraft an alternative to (as opposed to a replacement of) the complex requirement is being discussed inside FAA HQ.

 

[poadeleted20]

is there much training in the commercial that makes it worth it for the casual flyer? I thought about pursuing it but put it on the back burner after getting my instrument.

With the exception of the complex requirement, yes. It's all about precision and mastery of control of the aircraft, and that is worth it for even the most casual flyer. If you have no need of the privileges, you might even consider just getting the training on the maneuvers and landings just to improve your skills.

 

[poadeleted20]

You still need to have (per 61.129.3.v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

Other than that, yes, if you meet the requirements of the commercial experience, you can take the checkride.

You also have to be able do all those maneuvers to CP PTS standards and convince the instructor you are able to pass the ride, not just have the hours. :wink2:

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, 61.129a(3) i through v must be dual and the 10 hours must include all the items listed in 61.127 (with appropriate notations in your logbook). Nothing says that dual received prior to working towards a CPL can't be used to cover some of this if CFI made the proper entries in your log at the time. IIRC, even pre-PPL dual counts. For example if you happened to make a dual night XC that meets the requirements in iv prior to your PPL checkride (or after for that matter) you've already got that one covered.

Maybe. As you said, the log entry for that pre-PPL training would have to reference 61.127 or otherwise make clear that the training was for the CP requirment.

 

[GCA319]

I think there is. It is about smoothness and being precise. I don't think one can have too much training. Just because you have a commercial certificate doesn't mean you have to fly professionally.

This. In fact, I may have a Comm student lined up who has no intention of doing this for a living.

 

[gismo]

Maybe. As you said, the log entry for that pre-PPL training would have to reference 61.127 or otherwise make clear that the training was for the CP requirment.

Would it count if the entry listed some of the specific items in 61.127 but not the section itself? Does someone keep track of the changing section/subsection numbers so an old reference to an updated FAR hierarchy can be related to today's arrangement?

 

[Captain]

I don't remember a control tower requirement. Is that new or is my memory fading. Got my COMM in 1998.

Anyone?

 

[spiderweb]

Frustrated. The best reason for me to get this rating is for the CFI. I think I would be a good CFI based on the fact that I have been teaching privately for 25 years, and at college for 15 years, and most importantly that I LOVE teaching.

What sucks is that as a renter, my insurance will go up as a "reward" for getting the comm.

I'd be a good teacher, too, because I would only be doing it for the love of teaching, and -definitely- not for the money!

 

[Z06_Mir]

Anyone?

It's fairly new. I can't tell you exactly what year but its been in the last ten.

 

[poadeleted20]

Would it count if the entry listed some of the specific items in 61.127 but not the section itself?

I doubt it. The items are in many ways the same as those for 61.107. The burden would be on the applicant to show that the training was at the CP level.

Does someone keep track of the changing section/subsection numbers so an old reference to an updated FAR hierarchy can be related to today's arrangement?

The historic FAR sections are available for review on the FAA RGL Home site.

 

[poadeleted20]

Anyone?

That requirement has not changed since the last major Part 61 revision effective August 4, 1997.

 

[dell30rb]

Yes captain the control tower is required.

I'm grabbing a c152 this week to go do a few laps. I have the required tlandings but I need more takeoffs. I had a 152 at RDU for a few months and I frequently returned after dark but rarely departed at night

 

[jimhorner]

Maybe. As you said, the log entry for that pre-PPL training would have to reference 61.127 or otherwise make clear that the training was for the CP requirment.

I'm sorry , I don't believe this. I've been studying the regs quite a bit lately because I'm getting close to my Comm checkride, I don't see anywhere in the regs that you have to state the experience is specifically for the CP requirment. If you have logged the type of experience required by 61.129, and you've received and logged ground and flight training in the areas required which satisfy 61.125 and 61.127, and you've passed the written, you can be signed off to take the commercial practical test. Most of the requirements for 61.125 and 61.127 are satisfied by the PPL. A lot of the requirements for 61.129 will be satisfied by the PPL and an instrument rating. There's no reg that states you have to do it all over for the commercial. There's also no reg that states you have to reference that the purpose or the flights/training is specifically for the commercial rating.