Columbia Lancair Down on Long Island

The controller is not psychic. He said he needed help but not what kind of help. He declined to declare an emergency. And then he told the controller he was returning to FRG. He didn't object when the controller told him to squawk VFR. I feel sorry for the guy but it was known IMC and he should have been more assertive about what kind of trouble he was in and what kind of help he needed.
 
Alexb2000 said:
... What does the guy have to say, "I'm a VFR pilot in IMC and I'm about to crash and die. Declaring an Emergency."

This is how people keep friken dieing.
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Actually, that would've been pretty much perfect.

And this isn't how people "keep friken dieing." People keep dying because they're either insufficiently trained, too careless, or a combination of both, to safely complete a flight. If this was a VFR into IMC accident, which it seems pretty certain it was, this guy would be alive today had he taken the 5 minutes necessary to pull up local METARS and a weather forecast. VFR into IMC accidents are always the PIC's fault. No one else's. That's just a fact.
 
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Alexb2000 said:
In the first seconds I knew this guy was in trouble. If there is any doubt , ask the pilot don't just dump him. What does the guy have to say, "I'm a VFR pilot in IMC and I'm about to crash and die. Declaring an Emergency."

This is how people keep friken dieing.

How about we take that controller up in IMC until he's scared s-less and then tell him to call his buddies for help.
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He did ask. He asked the pilot what kind of help he needed, etc. He did not receive a response. Then he asked the pilot if he was declaring an emergency. The pilot said no. All he had to say was yes. Or I'm in clouds and don't know what to do. Or any other number of things that would have clearly signaled that in fact he did have an emergency and signaled the type of trouble he was in.
 
Plus the PIC could have avoided the accident by not flying into IMC, checking and minding the weather, and if all else failed remembering his under the hood training and/or activating the autopilot and wing leveler and altitude hold. The Columbia 400s are very nice planes with very nice autopilot.
 
Alexb2000 said:
In the first seconds I knew this guy was in trouble. If there is any doubt , ask the pilot don't just dump him. What does the guy have to say, "I'm a VFR pilot in IMC and I'm about to crash and die. Declaring an Emergency."

This is how people keep friken dieing.

How about we take that controller up in IMC until he's scared s-less and then tell him to call his buddies for help.
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He didn't "just dump him". The pilot said he was returning to FRG. I don't see why you're looking to blame the controller as if he could have teleported into the cockpit to save the PIC.

Aren't we allowed to do whatever is necessary to save our asses in an emergency?
 
redtail said:
Aren't we allowed to do whatever is necessary to save our asses in an emergency?
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In this case, dump in the climb power, level the wings, and raise the nose 5 or so degrees above the horizon. Keep it there till you can see. Bust the crap out of that NY bravo airspace, and live to see the FAA enforcement action. Some people are so afraid of the FAA that they'd rather dig their own graves. I don't get it.
 
Alexb2000 said:
What does the guy have to say, "I'm a VFR pilot in IMC and I'm about to crash and die. Declaring an Emergency."
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Yeah, why not? That would have gotten him the help he needed.
 
matthammer said:
In this case, dump in the climb power, level the wings, and raise the nose 5 or so degrees above the horizon. Keep it there till you can see. Bust the crap out of that NY bravo airspace, and live to see the FAA enforcement action. Some people are so afraid of the FAA that they'd rather dig their own graves. I don't get it.
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That is what I am thinking about. I think the pilot is hesitant to declare an emergency and get help from ATC is because he might have feared that he would get an FAA enforcement action for busting into IMC flying VFR, am I correct?

If so, if the incident was not intentional or not with criminal intent, or if he somehow avoided an accident (which he did not unfortunately), he could fill out the NASA form and get immunity from FAA enforcement action.
 
N918KT said:
That is what I am thinking about. I think the pilot is hesitant to declare an emergency and get help from ATC is because he might have feared that he would get an FAA enforcement action for busting into IMC flying VFR, am I correct?

If so, if the incident was not intentional or not with criminal intent, or if he somehow avoided an accident (which he did not unfortunately), he could fill out the NASA form and get immunity from FAA enforcement action.
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Lots of exceptions to that including incompetence and whether something was actually inadvertent. FAA has ruled that vfr into IMC due to failure to obtain weather report not inadvertent because the decision not to obtain a weather report or to ignore it is willful.
 
frcabot said:
Lots of exceptions to that including incompetence and whether something was actually inadvertent. FAA has ruled that vfr into IMC due to failure to obtain weather report not inadvertent because the decision not to obtain a weather report or to ignore it is willful.
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So you're saying that a typical VFR into IMC incident would not save the pilot's bacon from FAA enforcement if you fill out the NASA form because that constitutes as an intentional incident?
 
Wow someone died and you guys are rambling about the type of plane and manufacturer..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
N918KT said:
So you're saying that a typical VFR into IMC incident would not save the pilot's bacon from FAA enforcement if you fill out the NASA form because that constitutes as an intentional incident?
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Correct. That's if the FAA decided to pursue enforcement. No harm in filing as it can't be used against you. But don't think it's an automatic out. In most cases it's not and there's a lot of administrative case law to back that up. I don't agree with it but it is what it is.
 
Horrible accident, my prayers are with the family. My wife heard about it today and see, that is why we are buying another Cirrus when we get our next plane!
 
frcabot said:
Correct. That's if the FAA decided to pursue enforcement. No harm in filing as it can't be used against you. But don't think it's an automatic out. In most cases it's not and there's a lot of administrative case law to back that up. I don't agree with it but it is what it is.
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I actually do agree with it. I don't think anything should protect you from enforcement action if you willfully violate federal regulations. I would definitely consider departing without checking the weather to be a "willful violation," too. NTSB ASRS reports are there to cover you when you make an honest mistake, not to cover your gross negligence or willful violation of the rules. Unfortunately sometimes physics sets the enforcement action before the FAA has a chance to.
 
Well, to be fair, we don't know what the TAFs said when he checked the weather.
 
I fly that airspace all the time and recognize most of the controllers. In fact I went up today out of ISP though closer to noon when the ceiling lifted. While the controllers are very good, some are not as friendly or patient as others. Over the years I've gotten used to it (being a native New Yorker) but I remember starting out and being very intimidated by some of them. With all the training in the area, they have to deal with a lot foreign students with different accents, numerous practice approaches, etc. while Southwest and others are coming in. That's why I keep my chatter to a minimum.

They have a lot to deal with and it's hard to jump all over them but I too could tell that guy was in trouble right away.

Sad.
 
dans2992 said:
Well, to be fair, we don't know what the TAFs said when he checked the weather.
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Yeah but you don't takeoff for a 10m flight expecting the weather to significantly improve, even if the TAFs do forecast that.
 
I'm no controller (well I am but not that kind) but it sure sounds like he tried to ascertain the nature of the problem. The PIC not being clear about what his issue was, tells the controller "I'm going back to FRG".

ATC: "thank you, that sounds like a good plan".

Sounds like a good plan to me too, especially if he departed in VMC!

I'm not seeing what more the controller could have done under the circumstances.
 
redtail said:
Like what?:dunno:

The first and last sentence contradict each other.
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Let's say you were eating a steak to fast and started choking just as a doctor was walking past your table. You mutter help with the last bit of air in your lungs. The doctor asks what's wrong. You can't answer because you are choking. The doctor pauses waiting for a response, gets none, and leaves. You die.

Is it your fault for eating too fast? Yes.

Did the doctor ask if you needed help? Yes.

Did the doctor technically do anything wrong? No.

That's what I think happened here.
 
MachFly said:
Wrong link?
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Lower part of the page click on any of the regions on the 2014 honoree list and you will hear see the stories of their saves. This is what I am saying could have been done in this situation.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Let's say you were eating a steak to fast and started choking just as a doctor was walking past your table. You mutter help with the last bit of air in your lungs. The doctor asks what's wrong. You can't answer because you are choking. The doctor pauses waiting for a response, gets none, and leaves. You die.

Is it your fault for eating too fast? Yes.

Did the doctor ask if you needed help? Yes.

Did the doctor technically do anything wrong? No.

That's what I think happened here.
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Is the doctor blind?

Is the air traffic controller in the cockpit with the PIC?
 
Alexb2000 said:
Lower part of the page click on any of the regions on the 2014 honoree list and you will hear see the stories of their saves. This is what I am saying could have been done in this situation.
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Found it. For some reason when I opening it the first time only the advertisements loaded.
 
I see no point in blaming. What value I do get out of these cases is trying to learn from them so the same thing won't happen to me or my loved ones.

So far, what am I learning? BE EXPLICIT AND DO NOT BE SHY ABOUT DECLARING. He said he needed help but then when asked if he was declaring an emergency he said 'no' and didn't say what kind of help he needed. Just say, "MAYDAY I NEED HELP. IN THE CLOUDS.. " or even "AAAAAA IM FALLING OUT OF THE SKY!" I've seen people make fun of that guy for freaking out but he lived.

Condolences and prayers to his family and loved ones and I'll do my best to respect this accident by trying to learn and not repeat mistakes made as more is learned from this.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Let's say you were eating a steak to fast and started choking just as a doctor was walking past your table. You mutter help with the last bit of air in your lungs. The doctor asks what's wrong. You can't answer because you are choking. The doctor pauses waiting for a response, gets none, and leaves. You die.

Is it your fault for eating too fast? Yes.

Did the doctor ask if you needed help? Yes.

Did the doctor technically do anything wrong? No.

That's what I think happened here.
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That's kinda like apples and oranges.
The controller doesn't know exactly what's going on, he didn't know what the guy needed help with, to make sure he isn't screwing the guy over he asked if it's an emergency and he said no.
Your doctor scenario would be a lot more accurate if the guy that's choking would have said no and pushed the doctor away, and there would be other people in the area asking for his help with clear problems.
 
redtail said:
Is the doctor blind?

Is the air traffic controller in the cockpit with the PIC?
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Is the controller deaf? Wasn't it obvious that pilot was in trouble?

On second thought no point in going round and round. Have a good night.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Let's say you were eating a steak to fast and started choking just as a doctor was walking past your table. You mutter help with the last bit of air in your lungs. The doctor asks what's wrong. You can't answer because you are choking. The doctor pauses waiting for a response, gets none, and leaves. You die.

Is it your fault for eating too fast? Yes.

Did the doctor ask if you needed help? Yes.

Did the doctor technically do anything wrong? No.

That's what I think happened here.
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More like.......

Let's say you were eating a steak to fast and started choking just as a doctor was walking past your table. You mutter help with the last bit of air in your lungs. The doctor asks what's wrong are you choking? You say no, I'll just go back to my seat. Doctor says OK and leaves. You die.
 
MachFly said:
That's kinda like apples and oranges.
The controller doesn't know exactly what's going on, he didn't know what the guy needed help with, to make sure he isn't screwing the guy over he asked if it's an emergency and he said no.
Your doctor scenario would be a lot more accurate if the guy that's choking would have said no and pushed the doctor away, and there would be other people in the area asking for his help with clear problems.
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Exactly.
In fact, when we were kids, something similar happened to my sister. She had an ice cube in her mouth and started chocking! She couldn't even utter a word, let alone ask for help. My older brother saw her and immediately recognized what was going on. He (not knowing the Heimlich maneuver) ran up to her and started pounding the back of her neck area with the palm of his hand until the ice came out. We were all happy that he saved her life.

What if she was alone? Even if she could have dialed 911, she'd probably still would have died. Could we have blamed the 911 operator?
 
redtail said:
Exactly.
In fact, when we were kids, something similar happened to my sister. She had an ice cube in her mouth and started chocking! She couldn't even utter a word, let alone ask for help. My older brother saw her and immediately recognized what was going on. He (not knowing the Heimlich maneuver) ran up to her and started pounding the back of her neck area with the palm of his hand until the ice came out. We were all happy that he saved her life.

What if she was alone? Even if she could have dialed 911, she'd probably still would have died. Could we have blamed the 911 operator?
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In all likelihood the ice would have melted long before she died.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Is the controller deaf? Wasn't it obvious that pilot was in trouble?

On second thought no point in going round and round. Have a good night.
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I've visited many control towers as well as the TRACON facility on Long Island. I haven't seen any that had a remote wing leveler button that they could press to save a pilot. :rolleyes2:

I feel just as bad as you do for the guy, and I'm sure that controller does too.:sad:
 
frcabot said:
In all likelihood the ice would have melted long before she died.
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I'm not so sure about that. This was an ice cube, the kind you get from an ice tray that you fill up with water and place in your freezer. Not what you get from a modern refrig. Her air supply was blocked completely!

frcabot said:
I'm not sure exactly what the point was, to be honest. :confused:
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But yeah you missed the point.:rolleyes:
 
jordane93 said:
Explains why he couldn't see. I didn't go flying today but just by looking at the sky, I could tell it was really hazy here and had to be worse up there
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Yeah the haze on Long Island yesterday was insane. I'm Sure it was tough to see. That beig said, I've flown in 6 miles haze one time. I wrote in my log book that 6 miles haze is too low for me. That being said it was tottally flyable and plenty far enough to make this short flight.
 
jspilot said:
Yeah the haze on Long Island yesterday was insane. I'm Sure it was tough to see. That beig said, I've flown in 6 miles haze one time. I wrote in my log book that 6 miles haze is too low for me. That being said it was tottally flyable and plenty far enough to make this short flight.
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I had this very same experience the day JFK jr crashed. Probably around the same visibility (6 or 7sm) but the haze was way above my comfort zone as a student pilot. We departed Teterboro for a short hop over to Morristown airport so I could practice landings.

I vividly remember discussing the haze with my CFI. I'll always remember that day because less than 24 hours later, JFK jr crashed and all of the news reports were talking about the poor visibility and haze.

That was a tough moment as a student just about to finish up and go for my checkride, but it taught me a lot.
 
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I have not read in any of the brain-strangled, idiot garbled, news reports that the airplane had a loss of power, flew into a thunderstorm and broke apart in the air etc. etc. yet it crashed.
So, obviously the pilot was not properly trained. (pilot error will be the final report)
When you see something like this you have to look at our training syllabus. (not blaming the CFI ) The syllabus for the private rating is very weak on situational training with under the hood time.

And besides the obvious of making sure they can keep it upright in an a VFR into IMC even more important is imparting a mindset. Mindset is top priority in my mind. This IS the CFI's responsibility.
A bad mindset will kill you.

The mindset that should have been drilled into him is "screw the controlled airspace and double screw the controller. If I am in trouble I am going full power and climbing out of here. Once I am clear of obstacles I'll help the controller solve his problem."
The training I am seeing done today does not impart that attitude. It is exactly the opposite - that it is the end of the world if you offend an FAA regulation and you better die rather than do that.
Case in point is the Corey Lidle crash. A CFI would rather risk death than punch the throttle and and climb into controlled airspace and clear air just a few hundred feet above him. Now there is a mindset that kills

In this recent crash it was a double whammy - no mindset to climb straight and level to clear air and incapable of controlled flight in IMC.

Perhaps for VFR rated pilots the Biennial should consist of 3 hours of hood time by regulation. Nothing else. Just control the airplane. It would have had a good chance of keeping this guy alive.
 
Dr. O said:
...
The mindset that should have been drilled into him is "screw the controlled airspace and double screw the controller. If I am in trouble I am going full power and climbing out of here. Once I am clear of obstacles I'll help the controller solve his problem."...
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I agree with this, except maybe screw the controller they are trying to help unless they are telling you to do something that doesn't make sense. Unfortunately this is not helped by the FAA. The same is true with the medical where people fear seeking treatment because they don't want to deal with the FAA hassle after the fact.

I would also put in this category fear of banging up the aircraft. I even had this discussion with the guy I rent from who is also my instructor. I have insurance and enough to cover his plane because on the off chance I have an issue I don't want to care what happens to the plane and if he is going to made whole at the end of the day. I just want to make sure that I have the best chance of survival and if that means the plane is wrecked so be it.
 
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